BETA BJ3 v BETA 43

[Eliza Jane]

Hello all.

We would very much like to hear owners opinions on BETA JD3 engines.

Has anybody ever fitted one?

Has anybody ever fitted one in the stern engine area rather than in a dedicated engine room?

Having compared torque graphs, which are much better than BETA43, and fuel consumption etc there seems little difference in fuel consumption between the JD3 and BETA 43.

The JD3 runs at a much slower speed and we are wondering if the normal hospital silencers, flexible engine mountings etc would make this an interesting, and more importantly, as quiet an engine, in a new build narrowboat.

Having had boats with BETA 38 and more recently a BETA 30 I'm thinking that the slower engine speed might give a more relaxed cruise over long periods.

BETA have developed the JD3 for traditional "engine rooms" rather than covered over, as it's a more pretty looking engine, but we cannot justify the length taken up by an engine room.

The BD3 is slightly larger over-all but should fit ok if building from scratch.

There are many other Qs we have before committing to a new build, one being 12 or 24v?

Another being whether to go for a "Travel Power" generator as we will be long term cruising with washing machine etc.

Loads to consider, and we would welcome any thoughts.

Thanks.

[OldGoat]

It's a new thread - so somebody's got to start most of my comments will be my opinion not all of which has been backed up by my experience:-

 

JD3 - there have been comments on these fora about it's reliability and cost of parts when needed - but not a lot recently - have you looked at the engine section for more details?

It's a big engine - intended (as you note) for separate engine rooms, so seems 'daft' to hid it away at the back end quite apart from the fact that it's somewhat taller than 'normal engines' - which might present some challenges in fitting.

If your worried about torque then have you considered building a deeper draught boat with a large propeller and a 3:1 gearbox instead? That should generate some interesting comments

 

Voltage

For your use - implying large electrical appliances - some of which you will / might want to use without running the engine I definitely would go for 24V. (My boat is) and 12V appliances - car radios etc - could either be run using a 12V tap in the battery bank or a 24 - 12v converter.

 

Travel Power

These make sense, but there have been comments about reliability (cost a lot to repair) and if you go for one I would have it as well as a large inverter

Either way you need a large battery bank, 1,000Ah @ 24V would be a good target (I have 500Ah)

Beta used to offer a constant speed unit with a mains alternator - I wonder why that was deleted. Their current version is more conventional with a TP, cocooned and a hospital silencer. That might be ideal for you. In addition I understand that someone has one of these fitted offset at the rear end giving near silent travel and a bit more usable cabin space.

[nicknorman]

We have a beta 43 which is a Kubota (Japanese) engine, the JD3 is a completely different engine based on a John Deere engine (IIRC). As you say, the JD3 is much slower revving / longer stroke. I have no experience of the latter except to say some of the ones I have seen have been quite smoky whereas ours is totally clean burning. Something to consider anyway, as personally I don't think it's very relaxing to be cruising in a blue haze!

 

Our beta 43 has a hospital silencer and is well aligned (so very smooth), with a big prop so cruise rpm on ordinary canals is 12-1300 rpm. The engine is very quiet and relaxing, and also has a huge alternator for the domestics which can charge at up to about 160A even at tickover.

 

Personally I wouldn't contemplate going back a few decades to the technology of the JD3 but that is just my preference!

 

We also have a travelpower, we use it for the electric kettle, washing machine and tumble drier. It also provides an alternative source of mains power should the inverter fail - for live aboard or long term use, having alternative ways of doing things is always a good idea! However I will admit the TP is a bit of an expensive luxury and certainly not essential, but I'm glad we coughed up for one.

 

As for 12v or 24v I would go for 12v as items are generally cheaper and more readily available, offsetting any modest cost saving from needing smaller gauge wiring.

Edited August 26, 2015 by nicknorman

[OldGoat]

Nice to have confirmation from NickNorman above. The only point of variance is that of DC voltage.

IME 24V choice is not so much a matter of cable size but more of equipment reliability.

24V alternators have higher output for a given physical size and speed of rotation that the nearest 12V 'equivalent'. Being made for trucks and buses they are designed to be run at full capacity for long periods - whereas car units tend to produce full power for much shorter periods

 

It all depends on your use (one recent poster quoted 240V mains equipment in use as cooger, washing machine, tumble dryer hair straighteners, fire, kettle, microwave and more. Try that lot with a 12V setup....

[frahkn]

My Beta 43 is cocooned and has a hospital silencer ending in a roof exhaust. It is not in an engine room but is placed to one side of the boat, 12 feet forward of the steering position (it's in the bathroom!). From outside the boat it is virtually silent and even inside you often can't hear it over the sound of a passing boat.

 

The positioning means an awkward drive path and this does generate some noise and vibration in tick-over but less at higher revs.

 

I'm not one for speed but it pushes my 70' Orion 'tug' well at 900 to 1,000 revs and has been reliable for the two years of my ownership.

 

Frank.

Edited August 26, 2015 by frahkn

[RLWP]

I have experience of a boat with a JD3. Remember, it's a three cylinder tractor engine rather than a four cylinder modern diesel for driving generators etc. You can tell

 

Mostly from going deaf and your fillings falling out due to vibration

 

Some folk call that character

 

Richard

 

MORE: I'm not a fan

Edited August 26, 2015 by RLWP

[GUMPY]

My present boat has a Beta 2203 with a "wet" exhaust very quiet relaxed canal speed cruising at 1200rpm = 4mph. It will do 2000+rpm but only on deep water then its 7mph.

Would I go for a 3 cylinder no not unless it was built before I was born 1952.

[OldGoat]

My present boat has a Beta 2203 with a "wet" exhaust very quiet relaxed canal speed cruising at 1200rpm = 4mph. It will do 2000+rpm but only on deep water then its 7mph.

Would I go for a 3 cylinder no not unless it was built before I was born 1952.

Hooray, hooray - I thought I was just a voice crying in the wilderness??

 

(got a lot of flack last year when suggested it was a good idea...)

[OldGoat]

My Beta 43 is cocooned and has a hospital silencer ending in a roof exhaust. It is not in an engine room but is placed to one side of the boat, 12 feet forward of the steering position (it's in the bathroom!). From outside the boat it is virtually silent and even inside you often can't hear it over the sound of a passing boat.

 

The positioning means an awkward drive path and this does generate some noise and vibration in tick-over but less at higher revs.

 

I'm not one for speed but it pushes my 70' Orion 'tug' well at 9,000 to 10,000 revs and has been reliable for the two years of my ownership.

 

Frank.

Eh??

just as well it's cocooned?? (max revs are <3,00 RPM ?)

 

I've often wondered - was hydraulic drive not considered as an option?

A long cardan shaft with 2 UJs and support bearings seem a bit inelegant (IMHO, of course)

 

Looking at Beta's picture of the JD3 - it's massive mounts obviously intended for an engine room, with no obvious indications as to where they could position individual spring mountings as they would do for a Kubota engine.

Edited August 26, 2015 by OldGoat

[bottle]

JD3 equals modern equivalent of a vintage engine, it can be made to sound like one as well.

 

Beta 43, modern four cylinder engine.

 

JD3 needs its own engine room, it stands quite tall.

 

I make no comment as to whether either is better than the other but personally the only reason I may consider a JD3 is to have an engine room and to be able to polish it.

 

My boat specification: (live aboard,CCing)

 

Beta 43 with 12v (50 amp) and 24v (80 amp) alternators.

 

Battery bank is 330 amp.hrs @24v

 

Cummins Onan 7Kw generator (Kubota 3 cylinder)

 

Victron combi, 24v, 2Kva, 50amp

 

Solar panels, 400 watts wired series /parallel.

 

All on-board equipment, washer/dryer, oven, hob, fridge, freezer (both full size) radio,TV, hi-fi are 240v ac.

 

Lighting, pumps, loo are 24v dc.

 

All heavy use 240v ac equipment, oven, hob, washing machine auto start the generator.

 

(before anyone shouts we never use the generator between 20:00 hrs and 08:00 hrs the next day.)

[Eliza Jane]

Many thanks to all that have taken the time to reply.

All comments gratefully received and digested.

It's as i thought really, the JD3 is an old engine, with all the old problems of fumes and vibration that I could do without!

I'll be sticking to the tried and tested BETA 43.

As for the travel power pack, I'll carry on reading comments from members.

 

Cheers.

 

Rob

[ditchcrawler]

 

It's as i thought really, the JD3 is an old engine, with all the old problems of fumes and vibration that I could do without!

 

 

 

No its not, its a John Deer three cylinder engine and not that old, it replaced the older BD3 which was an old Ford tractor engine. It is an engine that was designed for solid mounting like most tractor engines.

[frahkn]

Eh??

just as well it's cocooned?? (max revs are <3,00 RPM ?)

 

I've often wondered - was hydraulic drive not considered as an option?

A long cardan shaft with 2 UJs and support bearings seem a bit inelegant (IMHO, of course)

 

Looking at Beta's picture of the JD3 - it's massive mounts obviously intended for an engine room, with no obvious indications as to where they could position individual spring mountings as they would do for a Kubota engine.

I've edited my original post to remove the extra zeros.

 

Couldn't agree more about the inelegance but alas I am the third owner of the vessel.

 

For the same reason, I don't know why hydraulic drive was not pursued. The boat was sold, to the original owner, for £150,000 so presumably cost was not a factor.

 

Frank

[dmr]

Forum not delivering its usual level of expertise here, and can't be arsed to reply.in detail

If you want a "modern" vintage engine in an engine room then the JD3 is worth looking at. Its NOT old, it just pretends to be.

Its a bit (very) big for putting on mounts, it should be bolted down in a proper engine room.

If you want a quiet engine under the floorboards then the JD3 is not the obvious choice, though I believe it has been done

 

TravelPower is dead good!

 

...........Dave,

[larkshall]

I have experience of a boat with a JD3. Remember, it's a three cylinder tractor engine rather than a four cylinder modern diesel for driving generators etc. You can tell

 

Mostly from going deaf and your fillings falling out due to vibration

 

Some folk call that character

 

Richard

 

MORE: I'm not a fan

[larkshall]

The jd3 will outlive the beta unit. Got one with 29,051 hrs on. Clatters a bit from top end at startup. A well respected unit. At present mounted with a min-till rig, after spending the summer powering irrigation pumps. I am a big fan even got the cap

Edited August 27, 2015 by larkshall

[MtB]

Many thanks to all that have taken the time to reply.

All comments gratefully received and digested.

It's as i thought really, the JD3 is an old engine, with all the old problems of fumes and vibration that I could do without!

I'll be sticking to the tried and tested BETA 43.

As for the travel power pack, I'll carry on reading comments from members.

 

Cheers.

 

Rob

 

 

There is at least one member here with a Travel Pack on a Beta 43 which has proved to be a total disaster. Something to do with harmonics causing crankshaft pulley failure and crankshaft damage. Massive bill to repair with no guarantee of success.

 

Tried to find the thread earlier but couldn't.

P.S. meant to say I had a BD3 in my boat originally and the performance was AWESOME. Took it out as sounded like a bus and the exhaust fumes were most unpleasant.

[RLWP]

The jd3 will outlive the beta unit. Got one with 29,051 hrs on. Clatters a bit from top end at startup. A well respected unit. At present mounted with a min-till rig, after spending the summer powering irrigation pumps. I am a big fan even got the cap

 

Stick it in a garage and sit next to it for an hour

 

It's an excellent engine for what it is designed for.

 

Richard

Edited August 27, 2015 by RLWP

[GUMPY]

The jd3 will outlive the beta unit. Got one with 29,051 hrs on. Clatters a bit from top end at startup. A well respected unit. At present mounted with a min-till rig, after spending the summer powering irrigation pumps. I am a big fan even got the cap

My Beta 50 is now 22 years old its one of the first still runs as new, no idea how many hours as hour meter stopped years ago.

[Eliza Jane]

There is at least one member here with a Travel Pack on a Beta 43 which has proved to be a total disaster. Something to do with harmonics causing crankshaft pulley failure and crankshaft damage. Massive bill to repair with no guarantee of success.

 

Tried to find the thread earlier but couldn't.P.S. meant to say I had a BD3 in my boat originally and the performance was AWESOME. Took it out as sounded like a bus and the exhaust fumes were most unpleasant.

Many thanks Mike.

I'm getting quite a few negative reports on the travel pack generator. Also some positives!

I think that if I'm going to have to run the engine with a travel pack, I might as well have a big enough inverter (3kw) and use the batteries, again with the engine running.

What does seem unnecessary is that the travel pack is turning whenever the engine is running, irrespective of useage. So the generator is probably turning for 90% of the time for no reason.

With regard to possible harmonics, you may be right. The pulley is very big and is possibly big enough to act as a flywheel on the other end of the crank to the main flywheel, which could, (if not perfectly balanced) cause stress along the crank. It may just be though that it was securing bolt failure that caused the crank damage?

As a mechanic by trade, (now retired) and building rally engines, we used to have bolt failure on flywheels at high rpm and by double doweling the flywheel to crank stopped it. The situation there was that the crank naturally "grows and shrinks" along its length when running and the flywheel resists this causing the bolts to stretch and fail, all by the by!,

Cheers.

Forum not delivering its usual level of expertise here, and can't be arsed to reply.in detail

If you want a "modern" vintage engine in an engine room then the JD3 is worth looking at. Its NOT old, it just pretends to be.

Its a bit (very) big for putting on mounts, it should be bolted down in a proper engine room.

If you want a quiet engine under the floorboards then the JD3 is not the obvious choice, though I believe it has been done

 

TravelPower is dead good!

 

...........Dave,

Many thanks Dave, great to get feedback.

[Eliza Jane]

We have a beta 43 which is a Kubota (Japanese) engine, the JD3 is a completely different engine based on a John Deere engine (IIRC). As you say, the JD3 is much slower revving / longer stroke. I have no experience of the latter except to say some of the ones I have seen have been quite smoky whereas ours is totally clean burning. Something to consider anyway, as personally I don't think it's very relaxing to be cruising in a blue haze!

Our beta 43 has a hospital silencer and is well aligned (so very smooth), with a big prop so cruise rpm on ordinary canals is 12-1300 rpm. The engine is very quiet and relaxing, and also has a huge alternator for the domestics which can charge at up to about 160A even at tickover.

Personally I wouldn't contemplate going back a few decades to the technology of the JD3 but that is just my preference!

We also have a travelpower, we use it for the electric kettle, washing machine and tumble drier. It also provides an alternative source of mains power should the inverter fail - for live aboard or long term use, having alternative ways of doing things is always a good idea! However I will admit the TP is a bit of an expensive luxury and certainly not essential, but I'm glad we coughed up for one.

As for 12v or 24v I would go for 12v as items are generally cheaper and more readily available, offsetting any modest cost saving from needing smaller gauge wiring.

Thanks Nick.

All great info.

How big is your prop?

[OldGoat]

I've edited my original post to remove the extra zeros.

 

Couldn't agree more about the inelegance but alas I am the third owner of the vessel.

 

For the same reason, I don't know why hydraulic drive was not pursued. The boat was sold, to the original owner, for £150,000 so presumably cost was not a factor.

 

Frank

 

Some boatbuilders are vey conservative and won't go near 'draulics. "high pressure pipework; leaks; unreliable; expensive, inefficient" and yet there's high pressure hydraulics around plant equipment'. so that may be the reason. A shame because I suspect there's some compromise in floor levels.

 

Teddesley had a hire boat with a Ford 1600 part way down and to one side with a cardan shaft that throbbed a bit - and the rear cabin(s) had reduced headroom.

 

Thanks for the feedback - I'm always interested in alternative approaches.

[dmr]

The TravelPower does have a mixed reputation, and there are various versions.

The older "BlackBox" version appears to be the strongest.

 

The Beta43-TravelPower issue is of course a Beta "oversight" (or bad luck) that they have now fixed.

Our TravelPower on a JD3 has done 13,000 hours and it is always switched on.

It did have one big failure that Cox's fixed but this was really down to my lack of preventative maintenance.

The "alternator" really should have a strip down, clean out, and new bearing every few years, plus a clean of the fan in the control box. This is sensible as alternators on boats do fail from time to time and get replaced whilst due to its higher cost the TravelPower should be maintained so as to last forever.

 

............Dave

[OldGoat]

 

 

There is at least one member here with a Travel Pack on a Beta 43 which has proved to be a total disaster. Something to do with harmonics causing crankshaft pulley failure and crankshaft damage. Massive bill to repair with no guarantee of success.

 

Tried to find the thread earlier but couldn't.

P.S. meant to say I had a BD3 in my boat originally and the performance was AWESOME. Took it out as sounded like a bus and the exhaust fumes were most unpleasant.

 

 

Many thanks Mike.

I'm getting quite a few negative reports on the travel pack generator. Also some positives!

I think that if I'm going to have to run the engine with a travel pack, I might as well have a big enough inverter (3kw) and use the batteries, again with the engine running.

What does seem unnecessary is that the travel pack is turning whenever the engine is running, irrespective of useage. So the generator is probably turning for 90% of the time for no reason.

With regard to possible harmonics, you may be right. The pulley is very big and is possibly big enough to act as a flywheel on the other end of the crank to the main flywheel, which could, (if not perfectly balanced) cause stress along the crank. It may just be though that it was securing bolt failure that caused the crank damage?

As a mechanic by trade, (now retired) and building rally engines, we used to have bolt failure on flywheels at high rpm and by double doweling the flywheel to crank stopped it. The situation there was that the crank naturally "grows and shrinks" along its length when running and the flywheel resists this causing the bolts to stretch and fail, all by the by!,

Cheers.

 

Many thanks Dave, great to get feedback.

 

 

The crank issue on Beta engines is one of my hobby horses, having had a failure of the drive element and replacing the engine as a result.

 

(Anyone want a short 2203 with a wonky crankshaft keyway??)

 

originally all the drive for extra alternators was taken by a very small key which (IMHO) was only intended to drive a small alternator and water pump. It must have been reasonable as mine lasted for 12 years with a massive 24v alternator and a SeaPower 5KW 240v power pack.

 

Beta blamed folks running the engine at tickover to charge the batteries and 240V - so that may be the harmonics issue.

 

Later engines (methinks from 3 years ago) are now fitted with a collar arrangement that gets its drive from the PTO attachment on the front of the crankshaft - where it always should have been...

 

3Kw is a helluva lot of power to take out of a battery; that's 250 amps. anyone would need some serious batteries (best quality fork lift truck jobbies and lots of them..)

 

So it's horses for courses and all electric boat needs a TP or a separate generator set, for occasional washing machine use a large inverter might be practical.

 

It all depends...

[trackman]

We have a JD3 nearly 10 years old now and with well over 4000 hours.

It has been brilliant, as has the Travel Power unit it came with.

I would not swap it for another modern engine for our boat. Ok it can be a bit smoky but that's after too much time at low power on canals or battery charging. A good blast on the Trent or Soar clears its throat!

It will never be smooth or quiet though.

It will stop our boat dead in half the length that a Beta 43 takes for a similar boat. I've tried on friends boats.

I would never consider fitting one in a box at the stern of a boat. Its weight and height make it unsuitable for that.

In an engine room like ours in the traditional place in the boat it fits fine. The long cardan shaft with twin universal joints and the solid engine mounts mean that drivetrain alignment is just not an issue.

I love it, but it's definitely a bit of a "Marmite" issue!