Replacing a Narrowboat Engine

[Giant]

Before this thread gets horribly off topic...

 

I'm a friend of the OP and suggested he take up this question here. I can say that there is a good reason for his looking at this particular boat; another one wouldn't fulfil the same purpose.

 

I suggested he get some concrete opinions on here for what a suitable replacement might be, and the likely costs & timescales to acquire and fit one, to help guide his budgeting and decision making. Narrowboats aren't my area, so I'm not really familiar with appropriate engines. I was thinking perhaps something from Beta - as it happens a friend of mine is a dealer for them so I might be able to get them a good deal. Someone else suggested getting hold of a BMC.

 

To add a bit more info, the original Yanmar engine was supplied by Barrus about fifteen years ago. I believe Barrus may have sold this one as a Shire 45. The boat has a cruiser stern. The old engine is already removed.

 

I don't think there is anything wrong with the keel cooling arrangements, and the boat wasn't used on rivers or tidal waters. The cause of the original overheating does appear to have been a kinked pipe restricting cooling. Before that it ran happily for many years.

 

Given the likely cruising range I don't think it would be necessary to get something suitable for rivers & tidal waters. Something relatively low powered for chugging along the cut would be fine.

Edited July 21, 2015 by Giant

[haggis]

The problem might well be finding anyone in the Edinburgh area with the facilities to install an engine in a narrow boat. There aren't such things as boatyards in that area - or on the Lowland canals!

 

Haggis

[craftycarper]

The problem might well be finding anyone in the Edinburgh area with the facilities to install an engine in a narrow boat. There aren't such things as boatyards in that area - or on the Lowland canals!

 

Haggis

. A couple of scaffold tubes and a block and tackle, will go anywhere, what more do you need, I just removed and replaced an engine in my truck, by tying a strop with block and tackle around the tree outside my house, bit agricultural but back on the road in 5 days, try looking at solutions rather than problems and anything is possible,

I'm sure Brinklow will be pleased to hear this is your opinion of them!

. Just playing Mike, full admiration for anyone taking on a good project,

[haggis]

Yes, I am aware that with some scaffolding poles and block and tackle it is possible to move engines about but the OP asked if there was anyone in the Edinburgh area who could do this. I was merely pointing out that there are no boatyards as that is what most folk were suggesting. I am sure there will be a lot of folk in Edinburgh who could do the job, just not boatyards.

 

 

haggis

[Neil Smith]

Before this thread gets horribly off topic...

 

I'm a friend of the OP and suggested he take up this question here. I can say that there is a good reason for his looking at this particular boat; another one wouldn't fulfil the same purpose.

 

I suggested he get some concrete opinions on here for what a suitable replacement might be, and the likely costs & timescales to acquire and fit one, to help guide his budgeting and decision making. Narrowboats aren't my area, so I'm not really familiar with appropriate engines. I was thinking perhaps something from Beta - as it happens a friend of mine is a dealer for them so I might be able to get them a good deal. Someone else suggested getting hold of a BMC.

 

To add a bit more info, the original Yanmar engine was supplied by Barrus about fifteen years ago. I believe Barrus may have sold this one as a Shire 45. The boat has a cruiser stern. The old engine is already removed.

 

I don't think there is anything wrong with the keel cooling arrangements, and the boat wasn't used on rivers or tidal waters. The cause of the original overheating does appear to have been a kinked pipe restricting cooling. Before that it ran happily for many years.

 

Given the likely cruising range I don't think it would be necessary to get something suitable for rivers & tidal waters. Something relatively low powered for chugging along the cut would be fine.

why keep suggesting different engines when the simple answer is get another barrus as its a straight swap so works out cheaper.

 

Neil

[Paul C]

Before this thread gets horribly off topic...

 

I'm a friend of the OP and suggested he take up this question here. I can say that there is a good reason for his looking at this particular boat; another one wouldn't fulfil the same purpose.

 

I suggested he get some concrete opinions on here for what a suitable replacement might be, and the likely costs & timescales to acquire and fit one, to help guide his budgeting and decision making. Narrowboats aren't my area, so I'm not really familiar with appropriate engines. I was thinking perhaps something from Beta - as it happens a friend of mine is a dealer for them so I might be able to get them a good deal. Someone else suggested getting hold of a BMC.

 

To add a bit more info, the original Yanmar engine was supplied by Barrus about fifteen years ago. I believe Barrus may have sold this one as a Shire 45. The boat has a cruiser stern. The old engine is already removed.

 

I don't think there is anything wrong with the keel cooling arrangements, and the boat wasn't used on rivers or tidal waters. The cause of the original overheating does appear to have been a kinked pipe restricting cooling. Before that it ran happily for many years.

 

Given the likely cruising range I don't think it would be necessary to get something suitable for rivers & tidal waters. Something relatively low powered for chugging along the cut would be fine.

 

A reasonable first few steps might be:

 

1. Obtain the technical install documentation for the previous engine, which is 15 years ago (hopefully with enough info on what was fitted, then it should be accurate), to ascertain the dimensions for engine mount locations and gearbox/driveplate connection

2. Look at the current equivalent from Barrus to see if its near identical in location

3. Look at similar equivalent engines from eg Beta, Canaline, Isuzu to see if they too offer something which would sit in the same position without alteration of the engine mounts

4. Once the engine shortlist is finalised, look at other details such as coolant pipe locations, calorifier connection, clearance for items such as alternator, drive belt fitting, air filter, oil filter etc.

 

We had an engine unknown replaced with a Beta which took up the same mounts but it left the drivebelt very close to a bulkhead, it was fine to change it but not possible to adapt the pulley to run a 2nd alternator, for example.

[ditchcrawler]

Did you not consider lifting the Engine out rather than lowering it through the bottom of the Boat?

 

would have saved a good deal of time

 

CT

Maybe he is use top working on Mini's drop it out complete with the bottom of the car.

[Giant]

why keep suggesting different engines when the simple answer is get another barrus as its a straight swap so works out cheaper.

 

Because it's a 15 year old engine and it's far from clear that anything currently available from Barrus would match.

 

Trying to find out though.

[craftycarper]

Because it's a 15 year old engine and it's far from clear that anything currently available from Barrus would match.

 

Trying to find out though.

. My landrover is 40 this year, but I can put a modern landrover engine in it by simply leaving one bolt out on the bell housing, you can also buy a ring that picks up the nuts from almost any suitable engine and the landy gear box, my friend made up a similar ring and put a transit banana engine in a landy, is it not possible to get a similar ring made up that picks up on the gearbox then just drill and tap it to pick up an alternative engine,, maybe some. Of the more boat mechanically minded people can tell us ???

[brassedoff]

I am planning on doing as much as i can myself mechanically

 

some of the prices ive heard for repaints are a joke cheaper to do it ya self and rent a dry dock.

Edited July 22, 2015 by brassedoff

[Iain_S]

Don't marine engines usually come with gearbox attached?

 

 

e.t.a. replying to crafycarper

Edited July 22, 2015 by Iain_S

[Neil Smith]

No you can buy what they call a bobtail engine that has no box.

 

Neil

[craftycarper]

Don't marine engines usually come with gearbox attached?

 

 

e.t.a. replying to crafycarper

not sure have very little experience of boat engines, just crossing over from vehicle mechanics really, after all it is only nuts and bolts, also I was assuming that there is a gearbox and prop arrangement still in place,

[Paul C]

Maybe a prop & propshaft in place but not a gearbox, since gearbox is typically supported together with the engine on the engine mounts - it might be there but not mounted properly. If I were removing an engine from a narrowboat, I'd unbolt at the coupling and remove engine/box together.

[craftycarper]

Maybe a prop & propshaft in place but not a gearbox, since gearbox is typically supported together with the engine on the engine mounts - it might be there but not mounted properly. If I were removing an engine from a narrowboat, I'd unbolt at the coupling and remove engine/box together.

. Well if there is only a prop left, it should be easy to add almost any engine and box,simply by moving the engine mounts to suit ?

[Jess--]

no fancy equipment needed... just a nearby bridge.

 

[Alan de Enfield]

no fancy equipment needed... just a nearby bridge.

 

26.jpg

15.jpg

 

That's not an engine - its an egg-wisk

[craftycarper]

no fancy equipment needed... just a nearby bridge.

 

26.jpg

15.jpg

. Now that's what I,m talking about, someone that gets it done, rather than look for reasons why it can,t be done, necessity is the mother of all invention,

[Arthur Brown]

" rebuilding it failed to fix the problem... " -OP

 

What sort of rebuild fails to mend the problems? If you have all the right bits then the rebuilt lump should refit in the same hole it came from. Have you actually considered loading the engine onto a pallet correctly and shipping it to a proper repairer or back to the manufacturer/mariniser for reworking.

 

The task of fitting a new engine is heavy but relatively simple, however you need the right skills, tools and supplies (pipes gaskets etc) some of which may be hard to find.

 

Getting a new engine is simple, just part with the cash and one will arrive. Getting the engine and gearbox bearers in the new right place and getting every wire and hose and the controls fitted could cost a lot of time and money.

 

If the last engine dies of overheating then some kind of sensor/alarm would be a good plan as would reviewing the cooling tanks. -Skin tanks don't work if they are overplated. If someone has overplated your skin tanks then you NEED to get them cut out and replated with single layer steel of about the right thickness. Overplated skin tanks will work their deadly magic on any engine you fit -they simply cannot get the heat away fast enough.

[Neil Smith]

" rebuilding it failed to fix the problem... " -OP

 

What sort of rebuild fails to mend the problems? If you have all the right bits then the rebuilt lump should refit in the same hole it came from. Have you actually considered loading the engine onto a pallet correctly and shipping it to a proper repairer or back to the manufacturer/mariniser for reworking.

 

The task of fitting a new engine is heavy but relatively simple, however you need the right skills, tools and supplies (pipes gaskets etc) some of which may be hard to find.

 

Getting a new engine is simple, just part with the cash and one will arrive. Getting the engine and gearbox bearers in the new right place and getting every wire and hose and the controls fitted could cost a lot of time and money.

 

If the last engine dies of overheating then some kind of sensor/alarm would be a good plan as would reviewing the cooling tanks. -Skin tanks don't work if they are overplated. If someone has overplated your skin tanks then you NEED to get them cut out and replated with single layer steel of about the right thickness. Overplated skin tanks will work their deadly magic on any engine you fit -they simply cannot get the heat away fast enough.

In the op he said it overheated due to a pipe problem, but after all the advice he has not been back with any comments.

 

Neil

[Giant]

" rebuilding it failed to fix the problem... " -OP

 

What sort of rebuild fails to mend the problems? If you have all the right bits then the rebuilt lump should refit in the same hole it came from. Have you actually considered loading the engine onto a pallet correctly and shipping it to a proper repairer or back to the manufacturer/mariniser for reworking.

 

The story as we have it is that the engine seized two pistons when it overheated. In the rebuild these were changed out and all rings replaced, however since then it has lacked compression and put lots of smoke out. I've heard recommendations against ever using the chap who did the rebuild, so I suspect it was a bodge job. Since then various other mechanics have looked at it and tried to solve the problems, without success.

 

If a competent rebuild would get it sorted then that might be the best option, but I suspect that between damage in the original seizing and a poorly attempted repair, the cylinder bores could be knackered beyond recovery. Given all that I advised the OP to plan on replacement rather than repair.

[larkshall]

I think remove lump, and ship to competent engine rebuilder, someone in the association of engine re-manufacturers. Get it rebuilt. Include cylinder head. Their first job will be to assess the lump as to suitability for rebuild. Major damage can sometimes mean the block isn't repairable, it's rare though. You can be assured that it will be returned suitable for many years service. The ancillaries should ideally be serviced or returned for rebuild, or service exchange, but you can do these on an ongoing basis, but would do water pump as mandatory.

[MtB]

 

The story as we have it is that the engine seized two pistons when it overheated. In the rebuild these were changed out and all rings replaced, however since then it has lacked compression and put lots of smoke out. I've heard recommendations against ever using the chap who did the rebuild, so I suspect it was a bodge job. Since then various other mechanics have looked at it and tried to solve the problems, without success.

 

If a competent rebuild would get it sorted then that might be the best option, but I suspect that between damage in the original seizing and a poorly attempted repair, the cylinder bores could be knackered beyond recovery. Given all that I advised the OP to plan on replacement rather than repair.

 

 

Which seems spectacularly poor advice to me, when fitting a different make and model of engine is so much work.

 

Why not go take that one last leeetle step of giving the engine to a competent re-builder for a strip down and diagnosis?

 

I doubt this would cost more than a day's labour and will almost certainly reveal a fixable reason for the problem. Then you can decide from an informed position whether to fix it or expensively replace it with something different.

Edited July 24, 2015 by Mike the Boilerman

[John Williamson 1955]

If all else fails, the block is available to buy new, and the crankshaft is probably fit to regrind. Do that, and the engine will be as good as new. It may be cheaper to buy a new short engine, though. The only real problem will be sorting out the cooling, which, if it's an external keel cooler, may need the boat to come out of the water

[lexicon]

Surely a rebore and oversized pistons and rings is better than just replacement piston in a potentially damaged bore?