Railings for Marple aqueduct - whats next?

[IanD]

It's always possible to conjure up any number of horrible fatal accidents that *might* happen, for example an asteroid strike on a major city would kill millions. The fact is that any risk must be multiplied by the chance of this happening -- in this case the fact that nobody in the whole of recorded history has been killed by a meteor or asteroid strike. When deciding whether to spend money to fix such a risk -- imaginary or otherwise -- it's also normal to compare it to other risks, especially ones where spending the same money is much more likely to save lives.

 

The canal system was built hundreds of years ago when 'elf'n'safety wasn't even a concept, and as such has many risks associated with it. Apart from the obvious ones of falling into the canal and drowning (just like any river) the vast majority of deaths and injuries happen in locks -- sinkings, people being crushed, falling into lock and drowning or being chopped up by propellor -- or at swing/lift bridges. The risk of this is *far* higher then anyone falling off Marple aqueduct, as can be seen by the fact that quite a lot of people have died in accidents at locks over the years but *nobody* has at Marple.

 

The risk of standing/walking along the offside is probably lower than doing the same along loads of unprotected cliffs all over the UK -- have you ever looked over the edge of Malham Cove, for example? Thousands of people every year do something just as risky as the couple of "incidents" at Marple -- probably more so given the uneven surface and 300 foot drop -- but nobody suggests that a railing should be installed there.

 

The fact that this whole thing seems to have been triggered by *one* person writing to complain about a theoretical risk beggars belief. What if the same person writes in to complain that people on boats can step *straight off* Pontcysyllte without *any* railing to prevent this? People have actually died in canal tunels, so should they all be closed? -- because there's not really much else that can be done to make them safer.

 

it's impossible to make anything safe against people determined to do something stupid, like crossing the road (or driving) without looking because they're texting. "Accidentally" falling off Marple aqueduct falls into the same category. There are far better things -- even safety-related -- that CART could do with this money.

[starman]

What does 'opened up to the public' mean anyway? I thought the canals were open to the public anyway.

[Pluto]

This is Netherton, on the L&LC, in 1979. Bootle built an estate around the canal with no consideration for how the canal could be integrated into the estate. After a few deaths, they erected this fencing, with the results described by Mike Todd in post 45. It is an excellent example of how poorly designed fencing can cause more problems than it solves.

[GoodGurl]

No, if anything they should be getting rid of the rails, which can make things much worse. Although if you're standing in the correct place -- in front of the tiller not next to it, and certainly not on the back counter -- there's absolutely no chance of being thrown in by it.

my reply was of course tongue in cheek. not to be taken seriously.

[MoominPapa]

I've not read all of the threads on this, so apologies if I'm late to the party.

 

Having walked over the aqueduct today, the one thing which stands out is that CRT's renovation has covered the offside surface in exactly the same material as the towpath. It really does look like another towpath. To add insult to injury, this is a granular material which is rather easy to slip on if running, for instance. It seems to me that all that's needed is to cover the offside with something that's very difficult to walk on. Uneven cobbles, maybe, or those rubber cones that stop people straying off the ends of station platforms.

 

Given the number of bumps from the bottom on the journey from Duckinfield to here, personally, I'd rather CRT spent the money of cleaning the canal and chopping the offside trees,

 

MP.

Edited July 22, 2015 by MoominPapa

[brassedoff]

Its about time they looked at putting railing up in Marple, it looks mighty scary when your up their.

 

i live in stockport and walk over it now and then.

 

edited after reading the full thread, i dont see the problem with having railings.

 

i would rather know dad is not going to fall off the boat or lose his balance while going over the aquaduct, its only for safety at the end of the day.

Edited July 22, 2015 by brassedoff

[DHutch]

Received this today;

 

One of the things I struggle with, is that for all the work they have done clearing around the place, new paths at the bottom etc, the access [to the non tow-path side] remains the same and only available via boat.

 

#########

 

Dear Daniel,

 

In recent years the Canal & River Trust have been considering the risks associated with falls from height from some of our historic structures. Our approach is generally one of minimum intervention as we seek to protect and preserve these historic structures.

 

At Marple Aqueduct a significant potential risk exists for members of the public and whilst there has been safety signage at the site for a number of years there has been recorded and anecdotal evidence which demonstrates that members of the public are putting themselves at risk by accessing the unfenced parapet of the Aqueduct. The latest incident was observed by Canal & River Trust employees within the last 2 weeks. With recent investment to improve the access at the Aqueduct the Trust felt that the risk could not be ignored and that we must sensibly mitigate against the risk.

 

The consultation aimed to gain the public view on the design of the fencing. I have attached the consultation summary which outlines the responses, issues and concerns raised. It is well understood and highlighted in the consultation that some are not supportive of the installation of safety fencing because of the important heritage and the impact on the aesthetic value of the site.

 

I have also attached out response to the consultation which provides further information about the safety incidents we are aware of. We have given significant consideration to the comments made in the consultation. In addition to the public consultation we have consulted with our advisory committees for navigation and heritage who have acknowledged the issues and support the action with have agreed to take.

 

We are committed to ensuring that any safety measures introduced will be sympathetic to the heritage structure. We will require Historic England approval for any installation.

 

We are now considering how to take the design process forward. As an interim measure there are plans underway to upgrade the signage at the site to add additional signs on the approach to the Aqueduct to be clear about the hazards.

 

As plans develop further information will be made available on the Canal & River Trust website.

 

Kind Regards

 

Lucy

11131-marple-aqueduct-safety-fencing-consultation-report-june-2015-final.pdf

11133-response-to-the-marple-aueduct-safety-fencing-consultation.pdf

[brassedoff]

i am know i am new to boating issues, but i really dont know what to make of this, i can see it would cost a lot of money to fit the railings and some think the money might be spent better somewhere else on the canals but maybe i am seeing it from a non boaters point of view too.

 

I would be really scared to go over Marple Aquaduct especially without a rail on the non tow path side, having walked around York Town Wall and finding out i had vertigo which caused me to feel sick and fall to the floor with no balance surely its a safe bet to protect people from the dangers of falling and getting off the boat and putting them selves at more risk than they realise. - the winds can be really strong on that aquaduct too.

 

I hope no one throws stones at me, its just wanted to add my thoughts thats all.

Edited July 28, 2015 by brassedoff

[Machpoint005]

"Upgrade the signage"! What on earth does that mean?

 

... bigger signs?

... more signs?

... scarier warnings ("you will almost certainly die if you step off the wrong side of the aqueduct")?

... cut back the vegetation obscuring the sign?

... all of the above?

... none of the above?

 

Having said all that, I understand CRT's position, which is invidious.

[Jerra]

i am know i am new to boating issues, but i really dont know what to make of this, i can see it would cost a lot of money to fit the railings and some think the money might be spent better somewhere else on the canals but maybe i am seeing it from a non boaters point of view too.

 

I would be really scared to go over Marple Aquaduct especially without a rail on the non tow path side, having walked around York Town Wall and finding out i had vertigo which caused me to feel sick and fall to the floor with no balance surely its a safe bet to protect people from the dangers of falling and getting off the boat and putting them selves at more risk than they realise.

 

I hope no one throws stones at me, its just wanted to add my thoughts thats all.

I am not sure I understand. Walking on the towpath with a railing beside you then the drop is OK but walking the towpath with the width of the canal and then a 5 foot pathway (which you shouldn't be on and would be difficult to get on) wouldn't. Is that what you are saying.

[b0atman]

i am know i am new to boating issues, but i really dont know what to make of this, i can see it would cost a lot of money to fit the railings and some think the money might be spent better somewhere else on the canals but maybe i am seeing it from a non boaters point of view too.

 

I would be really scared to go over Marple Aquaduct especially without a rail on the non tow path side, having walked around York Town Wall and finding out i had vertigo which caused me to feel sick and fall to the floor with no balance surely its a safe bet to protect people from the dangers of falling and getting off the boat and putting them selves at more risk than they realise. - the winds can be really strong on that aquaduct too.

 

I hope no one throws stones at me, its just wanted to add my thoughts thats all.

It is quite wide and there is no need to get off your boat

[Machpoint005]

It is quite wide and there is no need to get off your boat

 

Hmm. Absence of need is no deterrent to some idiots. But yes, it must be 5 or 6 feet wide.

[brassedoff]

I am not sure I understand. Walking on the towpath with a railing beside you then the drop is OK but walking the towpath with the width of the canal and then a 5 foot pathway (which you shouldn't be on and would be difficult to get on) wouldn't. Is that what you are saying.

 

No what i was saying is how scared i would be to cross the Aquaduct when i get my Boat in a few weeks, walking on the towpath side is quite hard to do with Vertigo but the wall makes it possible and lessens the fear, when i walked around the York wall anybody who has done it will realise that their is no 'inner wall' just a sheer drop with no supporting rails.

 

What i am saying is the railing would add a piece of mind knowing that if i fell or lost my balance due to Vertigo i could not actually fall off the Aquaduct because 'the rails would stop me'

 

Added, anyone at any age can be steering a boat and have a heart attack and fall, it would be a shame if they fell.

 

No age-ism, i am 40 and i could have a heart attack/stroke or what ever it happends everyday to anyone, plus another factor to take into consideration is Alcohol while Boating , people do get jolly and turn into jolly sailors lol

Edited July 28, 2015 by brassedoff

[Machpoint005]

 

>> plus another factor to take into consideration is Alcohol while Boating , people do get jolly and turn into jolly sailors <<

 

...which puts them into the category of "idiots": refer to my post 62 above!

[brassedoff]

 

...which puts them into the category of "idiots": refer to my post 62 above!

 

Plenty of people drink and steer narrowboats, not that i ever would.

 

But it happens, thal shal not judge thy fellow boater on here, especially as green horn.

Edited July 28, 2015 by brassedoff

[Jerra]

 

No what i was saying is how scared i would be to cross the Aquaduct when i get my Boat in a few weeks, walking on the towpath side is quite hard to do with Vertigo but the wall makes it possible and lessens the fear, when i walked around the York wall anybody who has done it will realise that their is no 'inner wall' just a sheer drop with no supporting rails.

 

What i am saying is the railing would add a piece of mind knowing that if i fell or lost my balance due to Vertigo i could not actually fall off the Aquaduct because 'the rails would stop me'

 

Added, anyone at any age can be steering a boat and have a heart attack and fall, it would be a shame if they fell.

 

No age-ism, i am 40 and i could have a heart attack/stroke or what ever it happends everyday to anyone, plus another factor to take into consideration is Alcohol while Boating , people do get jolly and turn into jolly sailors lol

That makes more sense I wasn't understanding you as I said. Personally I doubt anyone falling off a boat would travel the distance the photo above shows the parapet to be.

 

Yes I know that because of vertigo that doesn't help.

 

However do not go near the pontywhiosit on the Llangollen you have about an inch if that between you and the drop at below gunnel height. In my youth I rock climbed and heights don't generally bother me but it is a funny feeling every time I take a boat across.

 

Thanks for clarifying.

[DeanS]

I don't see what all the fuss is about...it's lovely fencing...and affordable..

 

[brassedoff]

That makes more sense I wasn't understanding you as I said. Personally I doubt anyone falling off a boat would travel the distance the photo above shows the parapet to be.

 

Yes I know that because of vertigo that doesn't help.

 

However do not go near the pontywhiosit on the Llangollen you have about an inch if that between you and the drop at below gunnel height. In my youth I rock climbed and heights don't generally bother me but it is a funny feeling every time I take a boat across.

 

Thanks for clarifying.

 

Sorry for not explaining what i was trying to say very well and thanks for the tip i will avoid that then.

 

i hope i did not offend anyone. i live right near the aquaduct and fencing would spoil the looks of the aquaduct and i totolly get that but no one should die while using the aquaduct either, accidents happen so often even if someone was drunk and fell off they dont deserve to die.

 

i fell off a building once and broke my back it kinda brings things home how easy stuff can happen.

Edited July 28, 2015 by brassedoff

[Ricco1]

The fencing itself could be a problem. If someone tried to climb over it and succeeded, then fell to their death, CRT might well be sued for erecting 'unsuitable fencing' by the family of aforementioned chav. If the fencing had spikes on top, perhaps in keeping with tradition from past times, said chav could injure themselves in attempting to climb it. Realistically, the only safe solution is to build a smooth concrete wall, at least 10 feet high.

[brassedoff]

I don't see what all the fuss is about...it's lovely fencing...and affordable..

 

 

That actaully looks quite nice , do they come in aquaduct green.

[Jerra]

 

Sorry for not explaining what i was trying to say very well and thanks for the tip i will avoid that then.

 

i hope i did not offend anyone.

 

I suspect it was more me being slow on the uptake.

 

I wouldn't worry nothing you have posted could (IMO) offend anyone.

Realistically, the only safe solution is to build a smooth concrete wall, at least 10 feet high.

What about one of those see through tunnels you see going under water in some big aquariums?

[brassedoff]

I suspect it was more me being slow on the uptake.

 

I wouldn't worry nothing you have posted could (IMO) offend anyone.

What about one of those see through tunnels you see going under water in some big aquariums?

 

i think it was me lol, sometimes my cogs jam while typing lol

 

thanks

[churchward]

 

 

Sorry for not explaining what i was trying to say very well and thanks for the tip i will avoid that then.

 

i hope i did not offend anyone. i live right near the aquaduct and fencing would spoil the looks of the aquaduct and i totolly get that but no one should die while using the aquaduct either, accidents happen so often even if someone was drunk and fell off they dont deserve to die.

 

i fell off a building once and broke my back it kinda brings things home how easy stuff can happen.

Indeed preventable "accidents" causing injury or death is an awful thing but the scenarios you speak of eg heart attack and falling off the boat or being drink and falling off the boat could happen anywhere and into the water where sadly you could easily drown. How are we to prevent that? Perhaps we should fill in the canal or erect fences all along the towpath? After all the risk of drowning in the canals is much higher than falling off a bridge/aqueduct to ones death as accident statistics will show.

 

Life is full of risks best not to worry about it take care of yourself and enjoy life. Personally I don't want a fence on the Marple aqueduct but if it is needed then so be it but I doubt it will save anybody.

Edited July 28, 2015 by churchward

[brassedoff]

I suspect it was more me being slow on the uptake.

 

I wouldn't worry nothing you have posted could (IMO) offend anyone.

What about one of those see through tunnels you see going under water in some big aquariums?

 

Maybe they could handcuff all narrowboaters to the tiller until they get to the other side.

[Ricco1]

I should have added to my post: the smooth concrete 'fence' should be curved inwards towards the canal. CRT could probably borrow a plan from a prison build, save a bit of money on architect's fees.