C&RT Enforcement Procedure Document

[Tuscan]

So has Allan Richards got hold of something not yet actually issued by CRT, but just under discussion,

 

(No I'm not going to grace NBW to find out!).

 

I'd be more concerned if it were on a CRT web-site than on Allan's own space.

 

I'm grateful to Allan for bringing it to boaters attention it is now on CRTs website this document is in kilometres the previous guidance re range was in miles but it would appear that CRT are looking to create a definition of both place and bona ride navigation that will be difficult for them to subsequently change.

[jenlyn]

I'm grateful to Allan for bringing it to boaters attention it is now on CRTs website this document is in kilometres the previous guidance re range was in miles but it would appear that CRT are looking to create a definition of both place and bona ride navigation that will be difficult for them to subsequently change.

It won't be difficult to change, they will just have another meeting with nag and put out another statement.

[Ricco1]

I noticed the term 'equality adjustment'. Any ideas what that means?

[Jim Riley]

1k. Easy enough to bow haul. Or even fit a robotic arm to pull along the bank with.

[KenK]

It is fairly clear that most of the document applies to someone without a home mooring. The last section applies to all boaters because we all have to move every 14 days. Ignoring the conspiracy theories it would seem reasonable to me that the person checking might not be the same one as previously observed the boat, so would not know exactly where it had been observed previously. If it is within the same 1 kilometre stretch then it gets flagged up, when my boat is not on its mooring then we are cruising, I suspect very few boaters with a genuine home mooring leave the boat on the towpath for a couple of weeks or longer. I'm sure there are occasions when it happens but common sense would say if that is the case inform C&RT.

I also am well aware that there is no distance requirement coupled to the 14 day rule if you have a home mooring but lets face it if you stay 14 days, move 500 yards, stay 14 days move 200 yards it is hardly normal boating behaviour, so it is not unreasonable that you would fall under the radar. I see no reason why someone with a home mooring should take the p**s anymore than someone without.

 

Ken

[cotswoldsman]

I am almost at the stage where I am beyond caring what CRT put out. I do wonder how much time is spent in meetings, tinkering etc. To produce this stuff. Remember the maps? Another great document produced by CRT. Redifining place now as 1 km wonder who came up with that. I think they must have a complete department now called "The Redifining place department" who hold meetings every day to see who can completely rewrite the dictionary

It is fairly clear that most of the document applies to someone without a home mooring. The last section applies to all boaters because we all have to move every 14 days. Ignoring the conspiracy theories it would seem reasonable to me that the person checking might not be the same one as previously observed the boat, so would not know exactly where it had been observed previously. If it is within the same 1 kilometre stretch then it gets flagged up, when my boat is not on its mooring then we are cruising, I suspect very few boaters with a genuine home mooring leave the boat on the towpath for a couple of weeks or longer. I'm sure there are occasions when it happens but common sense would say if that is the case inform C&RT.

I also am well aware that there is no distance requirement coupled to the 14 day rule if you have a home mooring but lets face it if you stay 14 days, move 500 yards, stay 14 days move 200 yards it is hardly normal boating behaviour, so it is not unreasonable that you would fall under the radar. I see no reason why someone with a home mooring should take the p**s anymore than someone without.

 

Ken

So you are now going to define normal, that's interesting.

Could you also explain to me what a genuine home mooring is? I get so confused with all these subgroups and nice to see you have now decided to split those with a home mooring

[KenK]

I am almost at the stage where I am beyond caring what CRT put out. I do wonder how much time is spent in meetings, tinkering etc. To produce this stuff. Remember the maps? Another great document produced by CRT. Redifining place now as 1 km wonder who came up with that. I think they must have a complete department now called "The Redifining place department" who hold meetings every day to see who can completely rewrite the dictionary

 

So you are now going to define normal, that's interesting.

Could you also explain to me what a genuine home mooring is? I get so confused with all these subgroups and nice to see you have now decided to split those with a home mooring

I'll define whatever I like and you can do likewise. I have been boating on the canals since I was 19 and I'm nearly at retiring age, I do not see the need to define any group but when you are posting on an internet forum it makes it clearer exactly what or to whom you are referring.

 

As to genuine mooring, simples one you pay for / own and use it.

Alternative a "Ghost mooring" you claim to have a mooring but never use it and you only have it to allow you to avoid the CC rules.

To save you the effort I know exactly what the 1995 Act says with regard to a home mooring, it only has to be available there is no requirement to use it.

That said even you know what taking the p**s is and a few people do, like the lady moored on the visitor mooring in Reading who had been there since last September, by her own admission, and when asked to move explained that she wasn't going to because she now had "riparian rights".

 

Ken

[Paul C]

I'll define whatever I like and you can do likewise. I have been boating on the canals since I was 19 and I'm nearly at retiring age, I do not see the need to define any group but when you are posting on an internet forum it makes it clearer exactly what or to whom you are referring.

 

As to genuine mooring, simples one you pay for / own and use it.

Alternative a "Ghost mooring" you claim to have a mooring but never use it and you only have it to allow you to avoid the CC rules.

To save you the effort I know exactly what the 1995 Act says with regard to a home mooring, it only has to be available there is no requirement to use it.

That said even you know what taking the p**s is and a few people do, like the lady moored on the visitor mooring in Reading who had been there since last September, by her own admission, and when asked to move explained that she wasn't going to because she now had "riparian rights".

 

Ken

 

I believe there's (at least) two types of what's colloquially known as a "ghost mooring"

 

1. A mooring which is real and exists, yet the boater chooses not to use it. This choice is probably based on the fact that its location is not great, and they prefer a location on the towpath instead. Possibly nearer work etc. Possibly that location is far from the home mooring, and home moorings in the location they've placed themselves are unavailable/expensive.

 

2. A mooring which is "on paper" and because the mooring provider know it will never be used, offers certain "conveniences" to the mooring provider - such as having space for 10 boats but "selling" moorings for many more than this. Or having an arrangement that they stay only part of the mooring period. Or maybe the boater DID have a mooring but cancelled it/forgot to keep up the payments and in fact its now invalid/cancelled, but they "forgot" to inform CRT of the change of mooring status.

 

As I see it, 1 is a legal loophole and 2 is illegal.

[alan_fincher]

 

I also am well aware that there is no distance requirement coupled to the 14 day rule if you have a home mooring but lets face it if you stay 14 days, move 500 yards, stay 14 days move 200 yards it is hardly normal boating behaviour, so it is not unreasonable that you would fall under the radar. I see no reason why someone with a home mooring should take the p**s anymore than someone without.

 

Can you explain why, when the relevant acts of parliament, make no specification about "bona fide for navigation", except for those specifically without a home mooring, someone with a home mooring, who chooses to do what you suggest is "taking the piss".

 

It would not be my choice, and obviously isn't yours, but it is entirely allowed by the legislation, so what right do CRT now have to prescribe otherwise, unless a new act of parliament overrides the current ones?

 

I consider it unsatisfactory if CRT decide they can prescribe stuff willy nilly, with no legal basis for doing so.

[magnetman]

I noticed the term 'equality adjustment'. Any ideas what that means?

AFAIK this refers to the Equality Act which is a disability related piece of legislation from 2010.

 

That's what I think it means anyway.

[magnetman]

CRT Equality Impact Assessment (eta its a PDF download not a big one)

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=psuTVerDL6PP7QadqpnAAg&url=https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/library/6759.pdf&ved=0CC0QFjAG&usg=AFQjCNEcgkGdi-CsiDEKtf8THpROc6SNog&sig2=x_UAQqoRhiRftuZSo1IVpA

Edited July 1, 2015 by magnetman

[peterboat]

I'll define whatever I like and you can do likewise. I have been boating on the canals since I was 19 and I'm nearly at retiring age, I do not see the need to define any group but when you are posting on an internet forum it makes it clearer exactly what or to whom you are referring.

 

As to genuine mooring, simples one you pay for / own and use it.

Alternative a "Ghost mooring" you claim to have a mooring but never use it and you only have it to allow you to avoid the CC rules.

To save you the effort I know exactly what the 1995 Act says with regard to a home mooring, it only has to be available there is no requirement to use it.

That said even you know what taking the p**s is and a few people do, like the lady moored on the visitor mooring in Reading who had been there since last September, by her own admission, and when asked to move explained that she wasn't going to because she now had "riparian rights".

 

Ken

Virtual geenie Ken you say it how it is

 

Peter

[cotswoldsman]

I'll define whatever I like and you can do likewise. I have been boating on the canals since I was 19 and I'm nearly at retiring age, I do not see the need to define any group but when you are posting on an internet forum it makes it clearer exactly what or to whom you are referring.

 

As to genuine mooring, simples one you pay for / own and use it.

Alternative a "Ghost mooring" you claim to have a mooring but never use it and you only have it to allow you to avoid the CC rules.

To save you the effort I know exactly what the 1995 Act says with regard to a home mooring, it only has to be available there is no requirement to use it.

That said even you know what taking the p**s is and a few people do, like the lady moored on the visitor mooring in Reading who had been there since last September, by her own admission, and when asked to move explained that she wasn't going to because she now had "riparian rights".

 

Ken

Ah ok all as clear as mud now seems you have not learnt much except your own prejudices since you were 19

[churchward]

Ah ok all as clear as mud now seems you have not learnt much except your own prejudices since you were 19

You are just being obtuse for your own effect. What he said was clear even if you do not agree with it.

[Paul C]

Ah ok all as clear as mud now seems you have not learnt much except your own prejudices since you were 19

 

What an unhelpful and ridiculous thing to say.

[Tuscan]

I believe there's (at least) two types of what's colloquially known as a "ghost mooring"

 

1. A mooring which is real and exists, yet the boater chooses not to use it. This choice is probably based on the fact that its location is not great, and they prefer a location on the towpath instead. Possibly nearer work etc. Possibly that location is far from the home mooring, and home moorings in the location they've placed themselves are unavailable/expensive.

 

2. A mooring which is "on paper" and because the mooring provider know it will never be used, offers certain "conveniences" to the mooring provider - such as having space for 10 boats but "selling" moorings for many more than this. Or having an arrangement that they stay only part of the mooring period. Or maybe the boater DID have a mooring but cancelled it/forgot to keep up the payments and in fact its now invalid/cancelled, but they "forgot" to inform CRT of the change of mooring status.

 

As I see it, 1 is a legal loophole and 2 is illegal.

The third which apparently causes a lot of problems is the boat that takes a marina mooring on a temporary basis say over winter and then declares they still have it or fail to notify CRT when they leave the marina.

[cotswoldsman]

You are just being obtuse for your own effect. What he said was clear even if you do not agree with it.

Really? I own 2 moorings on L&Ĺ one is rented out one is empty I have never moored there. I am about to take a mooring on G&S I have no intention of mooring there unless my Mother becomes very poorly and needs me about for extended stay. So 3 moorings I have no intention of using I guess that makes me a piss taker if you have been on the canals since you were 19. The 1995 Act is quite clear about what the requirements are for people with a home mooring and it certainly is not spending time on your home mooring.

 

What an unhelpful and ridiculous thing to say.

Now I know it was quite a good post

[KenK]

 

Can you explain why, when the relevant acts of parliament, make no specification about "bona fide for navigation", except for those specifically without a home mooring, someone with a home mooring, who chooses to do what you suggest is "taking the piss".

 

It would not be my choice, and obviously isn't yours, but it is entirely allowed by the legislation, so what right do CRT now have to prescribe otherwise, unless a new act of parliament overrides the current ones?

 

I consider it unsatisfactory if CRT decide they can prescribe stuff willy nilly, with no legal basis for doing so.

I do not know or for that matter care how you go boating that is of course up to you. Nor do I care how anyone else does it but I would find it strange if someone who has and is paying for a home mooring never uses it, in that case why not just CC.

 

BW and C&RT have to run the waterway network for the benefit of all users so they have to have guidelines, rules, terms and conditions call them whatever you like. Why do they need, them simple because human beings are the most awkward species in existence and no matter how something is phrased you can guarantee someone will not be able to understand what it means or why it should apply to them.

 

If every single boater simply did what they signed up to do it would not be necessary but they do not.

So if you have a home mooring you have what are for the most part simple and easy, at least to me, terms and conditions (or guidelines etc.)

 

I was boating long before the 1995 act and I'm well aware of why the act was written to allow boaters not to have a home mooring, it is very simple some boaters did not need or want one and they lobbied Parliament to that effect and won.

 

Parliament can't speak simple English so every act is written in a pseudo legal gobbledegook, it makes them sound more important. Therefore no one really understands what they are talking about, this allows many different opinions of what the act really means and an equal number of explanations from various groups or individuals usually to further their own interests.

 

C&RT and BW before them have tried to explain the various acts sometimes for the benefit of waterway users and sometimes for their own benefit, they are also human.

 

Finally I do not understand why you think you have to follow the CC rules if you have a home mooring, in my opinion you do not but equally I would not be unreasonable enough to leave my boat for weeks at a time where it could cause problems for others or for that matter where I thought it might not. The very few times I have needed to leave the boat away from its current mooring I have either used a local mooring or arranged it with BW / C&RT.

 

If every boater simply used common courtesy and thought as much about other boaters rights as much as they did their own C&RT would not need terms and conditions.

 

Ken

Ah ok all as clear as mud now seems you have not learnt much except your own prejudices since you were 19

I have no prejudices I hate everyone equally!

 

Ken

[alan_fincher]

I do not know or for that matter care how you go boating that is of course up to you. Nor do I care how anyone else does it but I would find it strange if someone who has and is paying for a home mooring never uses it, in that case why not just CC.

 

I have been and looked again at your post to which I responded, and as far as I can see you have made your remarks about people with a home mooring, but have not added anything to those remarks about having one, but never using it.

 

I also am well aware that there is no distance requirement coupled to the 14 day rule if you have a home mooring but lets face it if you stay 14 days, move 500 yards, stay 14 days move 200 yards it is hardly normal boating behaviour, so it is not unreasonable that you would fall under the radar. I see no reason why someone with a home mooring should take the p**s anymore than someone without.

 

So if I have a home mooring that I do regularly use, but (hypothetically!) still sometimes choose to exhibit the behaviour that you have postulated above, would I then be a "piss taker" or not, in your view of the world?

Edited July 1, 2015 by alan_fincher

[churchward]

Really? I own 2 moorings on L&Ĺ one is rented out one is empty I have never moored there. I am about to take a mooring on G&S I have no intention of mooring there unless my Mother becomes very poorly and needs me about for extended stay. So 3 moorings I have no intention of using I guess that makes me a piss taker if you have been on the canals since you were 19. The 1995 Act is quite clear about what the requirements are for people with a home mooring and it certainly is not spending time on your home mooring.

 

Now I know it was quite a good post

As I said what he said was clear even if you don't agree with it. From your response you are indeed demonstarting you understood his post. Ho Hum!

[NigelMoore]

. . . like the lady moored on the visitor mooring in Reading who had been there since last September, by her own admission, and when asked to move explained that she wasn't going to because she now had "riparian rights".

 

That’s interesting. Did she explain how she managed to acquire adverse possession of a public highway, and in less than year at that?

[cotswoldsman]

As I said what he said was clear even if you don't agree with it. From your response you are indeed demonstarting you understood his post. Ho Hum!

Yes I understand now he was saying I am a piss taker as is anyone else who pays for a home mooring but prefers to use their boat for the purpose it was built. I wonder how many other boaters he cares to aim his prejudice at

[kris88]

At this rate there are only going to be "piss takers" on the waterways!

Regards kris

[Naughty Cal]

At this rate there are only going to be "piss takers" on the waterways!

Regards kris

I shouldn't have thought that would matter to you. You wion't have a boat to p**s take with.

[kris88]

Your like a stuck record Rachel. Would you like to have a bet about wether or not I'll have a boat . Oh no I forgot you don't pay up on bets that you lose!

Regards kris