What The Broker Saw

[BlueStringPudding]

Ladies and gentlemen... spot the difference:

 

 

and this:

 

 

One of these images is how the broker saw this particular boat, the other is how I saw it! (And I've taken care to ensure the name of the boat is unreadable)

 

The winner gets a bucket full of iron oxide

 

Yes, today I ventured up to my first narrowboat "viewing".

 

The brokerage in question remebered I was coming and travelling quite far, which was nice of them. Then they handed me the keys to the boat and a map of how to find it and sent me on my way. I reminded them that on the phone I was told that someone would come with me to start up the engine etc. To which they told me to go and look at it first and then phone them on my mobile if I want them to come over. Needless to say my spidey senses started tingling!

 

And justifiably so - I met a boat that, in my opinion, contradicted a plethora of facts that the brokers had A advertised on their website; B publicised in their detailed handout about the boat and; C told me (in answer to specific questions) on the phone.

 

So rather than waste the opportunity (and the £40 train fare) I still had a jolly good look round and photographed every nook and cranny. Why? Well, as bench marks go for comparing boats that I may view in the future (elsewhere!) you might as well have a low one.

 

I won't go into reams of details here, but there's a lovely gallery of highlights of the trip to the brokerage on my profile page, if anyone cares to look.

 

When I returned to the brokerage office I asked them what they understand by the term "Trades Description Act" and shared a few of what I consider to be glaring lies I had been told by them in advance. And I don't mean a glossing over of a few minor defects, or naivity because they've taken the vendor's word as good, I mean utter contradictions that came from them. They had little answer for it except that "they hadn't been down to look at the boat for a while" (despite twice in the last fortnight members of their staff going down to it in order to answer my questions about it... or so they told me at the time). They took it on the chin when I told then that the "refit" is, in my opinion, a terrible attempt at covering damp, mould and rot with cheap ply (I could smell the damp and in places see it seeping through despite one of the windows being left open to get rid of the smell!) . They eventually admitted that the boat has been with them some time - they sold it to the current owner who says he "can't handle it" and wants them to sell it again. When I asked who the previous vendor was they just shrugged! I also asked them about when I phoned on Thursday and said that "I know it needs some paintwork redoing, but are there any signs of rust at all?" - I was literally told "Oh no, there's no rust, it just needs a lick of paint here and there"! (Now take a look at my gallery and tell me if you see any rust!) I told them that there is nothing on that boat for the paint to cling to! Some of the pitting was 3mm or more deep and much of the outside is like flaky pastry or bubbling around the windows. I also told them that I'd rather have been told the truth or even an "I don't know" rather than a blatant lie and saved myself the train fare and 4 hours of travel each way. They looked rather forlorn and started going through their list to see if they had any other boats more suitbale for me!!!! I laughed, thanked them for their time and left! I think even if I had a proverbial bargepole (and I wouldn't buy one off them, that's for sure) I wouldn't touch that company again. Unbe-luddy-lievable!

 

So for fun , peruse these contradictory statements and hazzard a guess which may come from a broker who shall remain nameless and which from a potential buyer (equally nameless ):

 

"There are only 12v sockets and lighting throughout the boat"

It actually has all 240v sockets via a shoreline and there doesn't appear to be a 12v socket anywhere

 

"It's on hardstanding and has been since it arrived last year, so you can inspect the hull"

It's been in the water at the yard for nearly a year and still is...

 

"There's definitely no rust or pitting"

There appears to be more rust and pitting than steel

 

"Survey available from 11/05"

It's actually a receipt for blacking - no-one knows when it was last surveyed

 

"There's one starter and one domestic battery"

"There's one starter and three domestic batteries"

"There's one starter and two domestic batteries"

????

 

"Radiator heating from gas boiler and additional heating from stove!"

"Radiator heating and hot water from gas boiler"

"Radiator heating from calorifier and hot water from both calorifier and stove"

!!!!!

 

And here's my favourite:

"Very clean and tidy craft" (And that I have in writing!!!)

So... that's excepting the rust on the hull, cabin and new stove; the thick grease and dirt on the hob, the mildew on the bathroom walls, the moss growing in the windows, the oily (and rusty) water in the bilges; the black mould on the ceiling, the green powdery mould on the new ply panelling, the spilled food in the galley cupboard, the rust and stickiness in the fridge and of course the spatters of what may or may not be vomit still in the toilet bowl... one must assume?

 

Rant over.

 

Despite these shenanegans, I have to admit, I came away from it with a sense of humour - the situation was soooo ridulous, and the poor boat so delapidated that you couldn't make it up if you tried! It's a shame a boat like that has been so badly neglected. Especially when there's people out there who could have loved it and kept it beautiful.

 

Oh, well, I've chalked that up to experiece.

 

(I have purposely not put the name of the broker or the boat here so as not to put the operators of this forum in a difficult position, however tempting naming-and-shaming would be)

Edited February 10, 2007 by BlueStringPudding

[Dan]

Hi Pudding

 

Sorry to hear of your tales of wo, and disgraceful service.

 

I remember the craft that was built around 1985, and ran until about two, or at most three seasons ago as DURHAM from Peak Forest Cruisers of Macclesfield.

 

The fleet was never, and still isn't the most luxurious, but I always found them reliable and presentable, plus pretty cheap.

 

Whilst the decay must have steeped up a gear in the last few years I always remember her looking quite smart. Sadly I cannot upload my picture of her from happier years, though if you wish to email me I will gladly forward you it.

 

I hope she gets the attention she needs, and would reccomend Whilton Marina as the best in their field, from my experience, albeit as a seller. I found them prifessional, courteous, knowledgeable and honest - which by the sound of it you may appreciate!

 

Happy Hunting

 

Dan

[Supermalc]

Aww.....poor Lisa (sob).

 

Remember my tale, how even I was taken for a ride.

 

You've a sense of humour, and a strong character, but it DOESN'T MAKE IT ANY BETTER does it.

 

Why people can't tell the truth is beyond me.

 

When I was selling my Norman, after quite a few timewasters one chap came. He said 'well it's just as you described it' but I don't want it, as it has too much cabin compared to rear deck (all 18ft boats are the same, unless you get a small fishing boat with only a cuddy)

[charles123]

What a well written post thanks for taking the time to have shared the information. A horror story indeed. I have just read the description on the Harral site as follows

 

"61ft cruiser style narrowboat, 1985 with an extensive refit, just completed and now offered as an ideal liveaboard at a reasonable price. Aft bunkroom with twin bunks, shower room with vanity unit, shower and Porta Potti, large central living area with new solid fuel stove in hearth and open to galley, walk-in wardrobe/store room and forward double bedroom. Gas central heating; bsc to 03/08; survey from 11/05; BMC 1.5; Available from Northwich"

 

How they can ask £27,500 for that astounds me and describe the boat as having an extensive refit in 1985 is beyond belief in looking at the pictures you took. But the issue is not the price its how its described.

 

I think Harral are unique within the bigger brokers of showing a single or couple of small pictures on their site, so you cant tell much from the pictures, had there been a close up of the outside or inside you would have immediately got an impression of the true state of repair

 

Hope you will find what you are looking for I am sure you know but apollo duck is a very good site for finding boats and as they are mostly advertised by the owners you can get additional photos sent to save wasting time if its not for you, also you can ask any direct question that the broker would not have the answer to.

 

I expect you will get a good number of replies to this post

 

Charles

[Noah]

I thought I recognised the ICI BrunnerMond plant at Northwich in the backround. When I was looking for my first boat I viewed one at this brokerage, described as being in very good condition, and it certainly looked OK in the photograph. As I approached the boat a guy working in the yard said, with a wink, “the roof needs a bit of work, lad.” Bloody ‘ell! If I had bought this perforated wreck my nickname would have been Captain Colinder instead of Noah! I finally bought a boat through another broker, whose name escapes me (ACDC?) I’ll stop now…..

 

I think many of us know what it’s like, Pudding, travelling around the county to see a boat that looks great in the photo only to be disappointed. Glad you’ve got a good sense of humour, you may need more of it! Hope you get lucky before long.

 

Noah

[carlt]

For boat broker, read estate agent. Their job is sometimes to sell the unsellable. The last time the owner visited that boat might have been when it was clean and hadn't been stood around for over a year. A 20 year old refit, however extensive, is time for a new refit.

[chris w]

For those interested, here it is:

 

http://www.harralbrokerage.co.uk/detail.asp?id=1315

 

Out of curiousity, I have emailed them, feigning interest and asking for a copy of the November 2005 survey document. Let's see what turns up - if anything.

 

Their main webpage is here

 

Chris

[carlt]

The funny thing is, apart from the blatant lies, why don't they make the effort? If you go to the brokerages round here then the boats are cleaned throughout, the brokers 'seem' honest and bothered about making a sale. And if they do get a 'project' in for sale then it is marketed as such. Perhaps that's why Braunston marina, canal craft etc. are the successful ones, they are more professional in there attitude to the buyer and vendor.

[Barry]

BSP as rants go it has class

 

I've just had a look at your photos, blue string, and I can see why you are cross.

 

besides being astonished at the level of decay on the boat I was struck by the lack of quality in the joinery, which looks pretty recent

 

Is this what can happen to a boat that doesn't get looked after for a year?

 

If the broker was visiting the boat regularly shouldn't they have informed the owner that the boat was deteriorating badly? (I'm assuming that they didn't - but they may have done)

 

Is this boat close to being worth nothing more than scrap?

 

If a broker knows that a boat has degenerated to the point that it is obviously unsellable, especially at the original asking price, should they not withdraw it from sale?

Edited February 11, 2007 by Bazza2

[BlueStringPudding]

Hi Pudding

 

Sorry to hear of your tales of wo, and disgraceful service.

 

I remember the craft that was built around 1985, and ran until about two, or at most three seasons ago as DURHAM from Peak Forest Cruisers of Macclesfield.

 

The fleet was never, and still isn't the most luxurious, but I always found them reliable and presentable, plus pretty cheap.

 

Whilst the decay must have steeped up a gear in the last few years I always remember her looking quite smart. Sadly I cannot upload my picture of her from happier years, though if you wish to email me I will gladly forward you it.

 

I hope she gets the attention she needs, and would reccomend Whilton Marina as the best in their field, from my experience, albeit as a seller. I found them prifessional, courteous, knowledgeable and honest - which by the sound of it you may appreciate!

 

Happy Hunting

 

Dan

 

Thanks for the advice Dan - it's always good to hear which brokerages people recommend - and yes, it's sad when that happens to a boat. I hadn't anticipated the boat being luxuirous at all especially as at my price range I want something basic inside to enable me to get as much length of boat as possible for my money. However this poor old thing was shot to b*ggery!

 

I'd love to see your pictures of her in her hey day. I'll PM you with me e-mail address. Thanks

 

 

Hope you will find what you are looking for I am sure you know but apollo duck is a very good site for finding boats and as they are mostly advertised by the owners you can get additional photos sent to save wasting time if its not for you, also you can ask any direct question that the broker would not have the answer to.

 

I expect you will get a good number of replies to this post

 

Charles

 

Thanks Charles,

 

Yes, I look at the Apollduck site most weeks as well as Whilton, VC, Harral (but no more, eh!?), Crick and a couple of others who's names escape me right now. I do find often the boats on Apolloduck seem pricer than similar craft on some brokerage sites. Or maybe that's just my imagination?

 

Thanks for your recommendation, though. Much appreciated.

 

I thought I recognised the ICI BrunnerMond plant at Northwich in the backround. When I was looking for my first boat I viewed one at this brokerage, described as being in very good condition, and it certainly looked OK in the photograph. As I approached the boat a guy working in the yard said, with a wink, “the roof needs a bit of work, lad.” Bloody ‘ell! If I had bought this perforated wreck my nickname would have been Captain Colinder instead of Noah! I finally bought a boat through another broker, whose name escapes me (ACDC?) I’ll stop now…..

 

I think many of us know what it’s like, Pudding, travelling around the county to see a boat that looks great in the photo only to be disappointed. Glad you’ve got a good sense of humour, you may need more of it! Hope you get lucky before long.

 

Noah

 

Hi Noah,

 

I suspected what I went through yesterday was unlikely to be the first time that had happened there! Thanks for your reply.

 

We expect to be perhaps a little disppointed on a few points when looking at a boat that doesn't quite live up to our expectations, it's the same as househunting in that way, but I was shocked at how ridiculously out of synch with what I'd been told, this boat actually was. What surprises me is how the brokerage thinks this tactic helps them sell boats - it must put more people off ever going back to look at future boats with them.

 

Oh well, I'm happy to keep travelling round when a bargain boat pops up somewhere - it's part of the fun and useful experience too.

 

For boat broker, read estate agent. Their job is sometimes to sell the unsellable. The last time the owner visited that boat might have been when it was clean and hadn't been stood around for over a year. A 20 year old refit, however extensive, is time for a new refit.

 

Thanks,

 

Yes - it's the job of many a salesman to sell the unsellable. The owner has been on the boat in the last couple of months, and indeed the staff at the brokerage have been on the boat in the last fornight; so their excuses were pants!

 

I don't think the refit is 20 years old - I think the boat is, but the new ply and batonning which is hiding the damp and stopping the windows from falling in seems to have been done in the last year. Also the shower tray and some of the B&Q style melamine kitchen cupboards look very recently installed.

 

The whole thing is a very bad cover-up job. The thick rust outside has been recently painted over on half the boat only - but not filed down or treated, so it's already started seeping through and just my fingertip could rub away chunks of paint and rust from it. If even a rookie like me can spot it, I doubt they'll sell the boat before it sinks.

[BlueStringPudding]

BSP as rants go it has class

 

I've just had a look at your photos, blue string, and I can see why you are cross.

 

besides being astonished at the level of decay on the boat I was struck by the lack of quality in the joinery, which looks pretty recent

 

Is this what can happen to a boat that doesn't get looked after for a year?

 

If the broker was visiting the boat regularly shouldn't they have informed the owner that the boat was deteriorating badly? (I'm assuming that they didn't - but they may have done)

 

Is this boat close to being worth nothing more than scrap?

 

If a broker knows that a boat has degenerated to the point that it is obviously unsellable, especially at the original asking price, should they not withdraw it from sale?

 

To be honest, I the owner knows it's deteriorating badly. He bought it like that I assume, thinking he could do a quick botch-job to hide the defects and sell it on. However (and this came straight from the broker's mouth!) he's told them he can't handle it and wants them to sell it straight away. He only bought it last summer from the same broker and by the autumn gave up on it. It's never even left their boatyard. I don't doubt for a second that the vendor as well as the broker know the state of the boat. Perhaps the vendor bough it when the paintwork looked better, (but there would still have been a lot of tell-tale signs of the rust) and maybe he didn't know to look out for those signs himself? Who knows - perhaps he was a bit conned too?

 

You're right about the joinery - there's gaps, and rough edges and splintering wedges used to prop up windows - bizarre, really. I could do a beter job and I haven't done woodwork since making a rather nice spatula in CDT when I was 13!

 

I think you're right - this poor boat is not far off scrap now. I should imagine the bottom or entire hull would need replacing, all the surfaces of steel would need grinding back to find anything that was smooth and resembled metal and the entire inside stripped out because the damp has been covered and not treated. It'd be cheaper to start again - what you'd call in motoring terms a write-off!

 

Regarding your last point, if they don't withdraw it from sale it ought to be advertised as a project. (Which means they need to greatly reduce the asking price) I think it will have sunk by this time next year. Sad but true.

Edited February 11, 2007 by BlueStringPudding

[DHutch]

Sad really.

- Assuming there still some thickness to the steel, it could still make a good boat for someone.

- But its not worth what there asking, its not been well set up to sell, and its not got long till it all gets much worse.

 

But if the right buyer could get it at the right price...

 

- All that salt/brine floating about over there isnt going to be helpin!

 

 

Daniel

[John Orentas]

I remember the craft that was built around 1985, and ran until about two, or at most three seasons ago as DURHAM from Peak Forest Cruisers of Macclesfield.

The fleet was never, and still isn't the most luxurious, but I always found them reliable and presentable, plus pretty cheap.

Dan

 

 

I remember Durham being around for donkeys years and I suspect that 1985 build date may be a little optimistic if anything, Peak Forest Cruisers always offered good basic boats at sensible prices but they certainly always got their moneys worth from them, many of the boats running in the fleet now have been around for a very long time indeed but none the worse for that. The Macclesfield is a narrow, shallow canal I would be surprised if hull wear was not a major factor when they are eventually offered for sale.

[BlueStringPudding]

For those interested, here it is:

 

http://www.harralbrokerage.co.uk/detail.asp?id=1315

 

Out of curiousity, I have emailed them, feigning interest and asking for a copy of the November 2005 survey document. Let's see what turns up - if anything.

 

Their main webpage is here

 

Chris

 

If they bother to reply, you'll find it's a receipt for blacking and not actually a survey as they claim!

 

I remember Durham being around for donkeys years and I suspect that 1985 build date may be a little optimistic if anything, Peak Forest Cruisers always offered good basic boats at sensible prices but they certainly always got their moneys worth from them, many of the boats running in the fleet now have been around for a very long time indeed but none the worse for that. The Macclesfield is a narrow, shallow canal I would be surprised if hull wear was not a major factor when they are eventually offered for sale.

 

Thanks John - that's interesting. I said to Kev when I got home that the boat felt rather more seventies inside than eighies. Some of the decor they'd tried to hide with vinyl lino / melamine etc looked seventies. But it could have been a dated fit-out even in the eighties, I suppose.

[NB Esk]

Hi Bluestring.......... I don't think you have anything to worry about, in your search for an NB.

 

I think the only time you'll have your leg lifted, is in your avatar image...........good luck with the search...

[chris w]

If they bother to reply, you'll find it's a receipt for blacking and not actually a survey as they claim!

 

It will be interesting though to see what they send (if anything). If, as is likely, only the blacking receipt turns up, then I'll keep pushing them to admit there is no survey in reality.

 

Chris

[Hairy-Neil]

I think it will have sunk by this time next year.

 

Boats much rougher than this can be kept afloat for more than a year......Ask Carlt for details.......

[BlueStringPudding]

Boats much rougher than this can be kept afloat for more than a year......Ask Carlt for details.......

 

 

It will be interesting though to see what they send (if anything). If, as is likely, only the blacking receipt turns up, then I'll keep pushing them to admit there is no survey in reality.

 

Chris

 

Go for it - good idea. You'd think they'd change the ad by now and remove the statement about the survey...?! Bet they won't. I'm tempted to e-mail them one of my photos and suggest they update their online ad with it instead of the one they're currently showing!

[Dan]

I remember Durham being around for donkeys years and I suspect that 1985 build date may be a little optimistic if anything, Peak Forest Cruisers always offered good basic boats at sensible prices but they certainly always got their moneys worth from them, many of the boats running in the fleet now have been around for a very long time indeed but none the worse for that. The Macclesfield is a narrow, shallow canal I would be surprised if hull wear was not a major factor when they are eventually offered for sale.

 

The year of 1985 is, in this case correct or very close to it. Some of the fleet was indeed '70's and they refitted, lengthened and renamed often after doing this - normally true of the original fleet line up built by Fernie..

 

However, Durham was a Windsor class (itself only appearing 1980) and was not of the old Fernie build. 1985 is correct from her BWB number of 71599, which seems to stand up to all other info I have on them. It's a shame to see her in such a bad state of decay compared to most others of a similar year.

 

All the best

 

Dan

[Lady Muck]

Hi Bluestring - when looking on Apollo Duck, take some of the prices with a pinch of salt. Our boat was originally advertised there for about £25k more than what we eventually paid for it. Sometimes private sellers of nb can be a bit optimistic about what they think their boat is worth.

 

Thats not to say that brokers don't. We looked for a year, I still read the canal mags and 18 months after I first started looking for a boat, some of the boats we viewed and dismissed as being overpriced are still for sale at the same price. I wonder if it's the vendor or the broker that won't budge? We did find that some brokers would accept as much as £15k less than the asking price, when pushed, though.

 

Just be patient and keep looking. We bought every canal mag, subscribed to Towpath Talk and spent an hour a night on the interthinggy. It took us about 6 months of trawling, but we ended up with a fantastic boat, with a keen price and an excellent mooring. So it can be done!

Edited February 11, 2007 by Lady Muck

[magnetman]

Apolloduck and Boatsandoutboards are both free-to list so it's worth doing a bit of 'prospecting' and seeing if someone will pay over the odds for a boat, no harm done because your not paying any fees to anyone . Sometimes it might work most times it doesn't I suspect.

[John Orentas]

Hi Bluestring - when looking on Apollo Duck, take some of the prices with a pinch of salt. Our boat was originally advertised there for about £25k more than what we eventually paid for it. Sometimes private sellers of nb can be a bit optimistic about what they think their boat is worth.

 

 

Good evening Ma'am.

 

It's not really a question of optimism, my boat is up for sale but there is absolutely no reason why I should have a better idea of it's value than anyone else, I have owned a boat for the best part of thirty years but I have never bought a second hand boat and only ever sold one and that was a matter of spitting on my hand and accepting an offer.

Narrowboats are like anything else, the value is no more and no less than what someone will give you for it.

[nigel carton]

Apolloduck and Boatsandoutboards are both free-to list so it's worth doing a bit of 'prospecting' and seeing if someone will pay over the odds for a boat, no harm done because your not paying any fees to anyone . Sometimes it might work most times it doesn't I suspect.

 

So's my site!

 

www.moveyourboat.co.uk

 

 

Nigel

Edited February 11, 2007 by Dhutch
Link made 'clickable'.

[Lady Muck]

Good evening Ma'am.

 

It's not really a question of optimism, my boat is up for sale but there is absolutely no reason why I should have a better idea of it's value than anyone else, I have owned a boat for the best part of thirty years but I have never bought a second hand boat and only ever sold one and that was a matter of spitting on my hand and accepting an offer.

Narrowboats are like anything else, the value is no more and no less than what someone will give you for it.

 

Unless you are buying with marine mortgage which requires a valuation survey whereby the surveyor decides what you should give them for it, that is.

 

Our boat had an overinflated price (we suspect) because it was sold on a London mooring. Luckily for us, the vendor needed to sell quick and agreed to our offer following valuation by surveyor.

[alan_fincher]

Lisa,

 

I'm (almost!), speechless.......

 

I didn't look over that many boats when in the market for one, and even so we did see some poorly presented ones. But this one frankly beggars belief.

 

I must admit I had my suspicions given some of what was being said as you were thinking about viewing it. But nothing quite prepared me for what you actually found, (nor you I suspect!...)

 

I really can't see anything to say in defense of the brokers. It's possible that they have a seller that isn't prepared to accept reality, and has some bizarre idea that they can still recoup a lot of what they have put into this wreck. But even so, that in no way justifies the broker not giving you a fairly honest statement of the situation, before you make a wasted visit. I'm amazed any established broker with a reputation to protect would keep something like this on their books (Or at least at that price, and with no health warning - there is one broker at least that does make it clear when a lot of work is required, or it's a "project" boat, which is a lot more honest.)

 

You must be a lot more resilient than many of us, is you can managed to be unfazed by this, and just treat it as a learning experience. I can imagine it putting some people of the boat idea entirely.

 

Anyway, I'm pleased that you have gone to the lengths you have to show just what stunts can get pulled in this business. Hopefully it will serve as a warning to others.

 

I sincerely hope you start to find something a lot more viable.

 

Alan