What The Broker Saw

[BlueStringPudding]

Hi Bluestring - when looking on Apollo Duck, take some of the prices with a pinch of salt. Our boat was originally advertised there for about £25k more than what we eventually paid for it. Sometimes private sellers of nb can be a bit optimistic about what they think their boat is worth.

 

Thats not to say that brokers don't. We looked for a year, I still read the canal mags and 18 months after I first started looking for a boat, some of the boats we viewed and dismissed as being overpriced are still for sale at the same price. I wonder if it's the vendor or the broker that won't budge? We did find that some brokers would accept as much as £15k less than the asking price, when pushed, though.

 

Just be patient and keep looking. We bought every canal mag, subscribed to Towpath Talk and spent an hour a night on the interthinggy. It took us about 6 months of trawling, but we ended up with a fantastic boat, with a keen price and an excellent mooring. So it can be done!

 

Cool - thanks Lady Muck!

 

I'll keep at it, fear not!

[BlueStringPudding]

Unless you are buying with marine mortgage which requires a valuation survey whereby the surveyor decides what you should give them for it, that is.

 

Our boat had an overinflated price (we suspect) because it was sold on a London mooring. Luckily for us, the vendor needed to sell quick and agreed to our offer following valuation by surveyor.

 

Yes - that's partly why I've set my price at around the £25k mark - it's the maximum amount you can borrow with an unsecured loan. I was chatting to a marine finance company about marine mortgages a few months ago. They were very helpful, but the red tape is lengthy: you need to prove that the deposit you have is yours and not borrowed; valuation surveys by their recommended surveyors only, (similar for insurance) and just proving to them that I exsist (when I don't have a driving license and don't (yet) have a passport is nigh on impossible! And you could do all this and still not secure the finance at the last hurdle and so lose your deposit through no fault of your own.

 

And yet there's companies out there willing to lend me £25k based on nowt other than a webform and a signature.

 

I know companies like Collidge have these procedures for a reason, and let's face it, I'd be getting any boat I was interested in surveyed myself anyway, but I'd prefer to have the freedom to choose a surveyor that's been recommended by a friend, or to use my overdraft for the deposit if I so desire... and also to minimise the factors that might contribute to my deposit being lost.

 

There's a reason that the literal meaning of mortgage is "death pledge"...

 

Lisa,

 

I'm (almost!), speechless.......

 

I didn't look over that many boats when in the market for one, and even so we did see some poorly presented ones. But this one frankly beggars belief.

 

I must admit I had my suspicions given some of what was being said as you were thinking about viewing it. But nothing quite prepared me for what you actually found, (nor you I suspect!...)

 

I really can't see anything to say in defense of the brokers. It's possible that they have a seller that isn't prepared to accept reality, and has some bizarre idea that they can still recoup a lot of what they have put into this wreck. But even so, that in no way justifies the broker not giving you a fairly honest statement of the situation, before you make a wasted visit. I'm amazed any established broker with a reputation to protect would keep something like this on their books (Or at least at that price, and with no health warning - there is one broker at least that does make it clear when a lot of work is required, or it's a "project" boat, which is a lot more honest.)

 

You must be a lot more resilient than many of us, is you can managed to be unfazed by this, and just treat it as a learning experience. I can imagine it putting some people of the boat idea entirely.

 

Anyway, I'm pleased that you have gone to the lengths you have to show just what stunts can get pulled in this business. Hopefully it will serve as a warning to others.

 

I sincerely hope you start to find something a lot more viable.

 

Alan

 

Thanks Alan,

 

Yes - unbelievable really, that a brokerage can get away with that. Anyway, as I said, no harm done.

[charles123]

Finding a 57ft or thereabout boat for about £25k is going to be a challenge. You may have to be a bit more realistic as to what you can get for that amount of money a shorter one would be of better quality for that price.

 

Brokers do a good job in holding up second hand prices which lets face it helps us all, we dont want our boats to fall in value by owners selling cheap or brokers valuing them cheap. But that makes it tough for the buyer looking for a first boat at a budget price. There may be bargains out there but most owners have a good idea of what their boats are worth and brokers certainly do. However you do occasionally see ones at a lower price where the seller needs the cash quick or its a bearavement sale with the estate being sold off.

 

With your budget I would consider a part finished boat that you can have finished progressively as funds become available over a couple of years, that way you are building value into the boat as you complete it

 

Charles

[BlueStringPudding]

Finding a 57ft or thereabout boat for about £25k is going to be a challenge. You may have to be a bit more realistic as to what you can get for that amount of money a shorter one would be of better quality for that price.

 

Brokers do a good job in holding up second hand prices which lets face it helps us all, we dont want our boats to fall in value by owners selling cheap or brokers valuing them cheap. But that makes it tough for the buyer looking for a first boat at a budget price. There may be bargains out there but most owners have a good idea of what their boats are worth and brokers certainly do. However you do occasionally see ones at a lower price where the seller needs the cash quick or its a bearavement sale with the estate being sold off.

 

With your budget I would consider a part finished boat that you can have finished progressively as funds become available over a couple of years, that way you are building value into the boat as you complete it

 

Charles

 

Thanks Charles,

 

I'm by no means expecting to find a boat over 50ft for that kind of money easy - and my budget is £25k-£30k (not just £25k on the nose) and the length isn't necessarily 57ft (not sure where that came from in fact) but I'm in no hurry and can spend time shopping around and waiting for the right boat. There have been some good candidates advertised over the last year (when I first started trawling ads in order to get to know the market), but I'd not started viewing anything till yesterday's adventure!

 

It could be that a boat needing a lot of work on the interior comes along for less that £25k, or that something that suits us really well comes along nearer the £30k mark... who knows?

 

I can wait...

[Orphiel]

I almost went to see that boat this weekend, recognised the picture straight off! Cannot believe what it actually looks like, and the cheek of the brokers. I did sense they were a bit cagey over the phone when I spoke to them, and decided to check out some others nearer to home. Also facts they told me over the phone (amount of fit-out and reburb done when, etc) didn't tally with what was on the website.

Went to see another boat instead, not at a marina or in brokerage, and spent a long time being shown around by the owners, who said that they were very loath to put it into a brokers, as they had seen too many boats neglected in marinas and not taken care out, allowed to go damp and nasty etc. Must say, my experience of them in general (limited though it is so far) has not been impressive.

 

Meg

[carlt]

Boats much rougher than this can be kept afloat for more than a year......Ask Carlt for details.......

Hmmmmm...

[Ernie]

I finally bought a boat through another broker, whose name escapes me (ACDC?) I’ll stop now…..

Noah

Was it 'abnb' at Crick ?? I bought my boat through them and have nothing but praise for their very helpful atitude and honesty.

[chris w]

I have received an interesting response from Harral Brokers today ref my enquiry re a copy of the last survey report on their boat which is the topic of this thread.

 

Chris

 

Dear Chris,

 

 

We have never held the survey and although requested the owner before last was unable to find or supply it. The exterior of the boat needs attention, the interior needs finishing off, the currant heating system is an “Ellis” boiler and a solid fuel stove. I wish I could be more helpful as I appreciate that long distance travel on todays motorways is to be avoided unless the outcome is favourable. I feel this boat should be treated as a renovation project.

 

 

Very best regards

 

Sue

 

Edited February 12, 2007 by chris w

[Noah]

Was it 'abnb' at Crick ?? I bought my boat through them and have nothing but praise for their very helpful atitude and honesty.

No it was ACDC, the seventies rock band who diversified into narrowboat brokerage following the demise of their lead singer, Bon Scott! Sorry Ernie, but I was avoiding possible repercussions by going into details of my boat purchase. The incident in mind was five years ago now and I've decided to let it rest (probably)

 

Noah

[RichardH]

Absolutely appalled by this.

 

A boat owning mate and I talked about going into brokerage based on 2 facts - there are no barriers to entry and that we could do a h*ll of a lot better than some of the charlies out there proclaiming to be experts in their field.

 

However it takes 2 to tango - if someone came to view a house which (let's be extreme) had dog poo all over the kitchen floor would that be the responsibility of the vendor or the seller.

 

My view is that if the seller was a clown and I still wanted to make my 5% - yes that brokerage will win the prize of £1350 for selling that pile of junk then I'd get my ajax out and at least make some effort - not sure about the mould etc but again as a proffesional broker surely they should be saying to the seller do x, y and z to maximise your return.

 

Better still treat as an investment - advise for £x that would give you a return of £x + y .........or am I being too simplistic.

 

Just for gossip, given that this brokerage told me that they sell well over 100 boats a year - not a bad profit.

 

And finally a rant, why are they allowed to create the only temporary 1 way system on the cut !

[charles123]

Absolutely appalled by this.

 

A boat owning mate and I talked about going into brokerage based on 2 facts - there are no barriers to entry and that we could do a h*ll of a lot better than some of the charlies out there proclaiming to be experts in their field.

 

However it takes 2 to tango - if someone came to view a house which (let's be extreme) had dog poo all over the kitchen floor would that be the responsibility of the vendor or the seller.

 

My view is that if the seller was a clown and I still wanted to make my 5% - yes that brokerage will win the prize of £1350 for selling that pile of junk then I'd get my ajax out and at least make some effort - not sure about the mould etc but again as a proffesional broker surely they should be saying to the seller do x, y and z to maximise your return.

 

Better still treat as an investment - advise for £x that would give you a return of £x + y .........or am I being too simplistic.

 

Just for gossip, given that this brokerage told me that they sell well over 100 boats a year - not a bad profit.

 

And finally a rant, why are they allowed to create the only temporary 1 way system on the cut !

 

I am absolutely with you regarding the temporary one way system, I slow down but not to tickover and take satisfaction from the noise of boats cracking into each other as I pass. Particularly the three identical Liverpool boat sailaways that have been moored just before Wincham Wharf bridge, they have been there must be getting on to a year, and because they are not fendered make a hell of a crack against each other when you go past at 4mph

 

Charles

[Liam]

Haha, I took enjoy the noise that empty shells which have been sat there for months make when they bump into each other.

 

They still have boats double and tripled moored which okay, there's plenty of these about on the cut but what gets on my nerves is the fact that they're tied up with what looks like shoe laces and are unbeleivably loose, causing the bows or sterns to swing out and bump your boat no matter how slow you're going.

 

And there's always at least one boat coming under the bridge ready to take the bend at the pub when you're in the "thick".

Edited February 12, 2007 by Liam

[chris w]

Absolutely appalled by this.

 

My view is that if the seller was a clown and I still wanted to make my 5% - yes that brokerage will win the prize of £1350 for selling that pile of junk then I'd get my ajax out and at least make some effort - not sure about the mould etc but again as a proffesional broker surely they should be saying to the seller do x, y and z to maximise your return.

 

Better still treat as an investment - advise for £x that would give you a return of £x + y .........or am I being too simplistic.

 

If you want to thrive in business you need to be effective - this is far more important than just being efficient. These brokers are doing themselves no favours by trying to sell a pig's ear as a silk purse. Look at the bad publicity they have engendered in this forum as a result. The later response I had from them, which I copied above, was in fact refreshingly honest. If they had been like that with the original thread poster they may have gained some praise for honesty.

 

If they want to sell something which purports to be more than it might appear, then the brokers (and/or estate agents) need to earn their fee and insist the client gets the metaphorical "dog poo" cleaned up or at least they advertise it as needing a pig for an air freshener!

 

Chris

[Dominic M]

I'm not sure that businesses should contribute to any extent to a forum that seems primarily for users to exchange ideas and views, but I had to register and offer a view from this side of the fence on this topic, after my attention was drawn to it by a boating colleague. I work in brokerage.

 

Firstly, a broker is indeed a boat estate agent as someone else pointed out. There are good and bad estate agents. A broker who deliberately misrepresents a boat is probably on dodgy ground should the hapless buyer pursue them in law.

 

Secondly, an intelligent broker knows that today's buyer is tomorrow's seller, and people appreciate honesty and helpful advice. We never seek to misrepresent any boat we broker and we inspect each one in great detail, but we do make the point that we are not surveyors and that any buyer must satisfy themselves as to the soundness of the vessel, using a surveyor of their choice if they wish to go the survey route.

 

Thirdly, there are only two inland waterway brokers who are members of ABYA, the Association of Brokers and Yacht Agents. This requires a broker to adhere to a number of conditions - such as operating a Client Account to protect both buyers' and sellers' funds, professional indemnity insurance, and a demonstrable professionalism both in honesty and accuracy in presenting a boat's details to ensuring a proper chain of title to protect the new owner.

 

I don't want or intend to use this site for advertising purpose, so I will simply add that we are based at Crick Wharf in Northants. The other ABYA broker is Virginia Currer Marine.

 

Dominic Miles

[bottle]

Dominic

 

First of all welcome to the forum, it is always good to here the other side, your experience may well help and who knows it may help your sales

 

So if you are not to busy drop in at any time.

 

Check with the owner (Jon) or 'mods' you may well be able to add a link in your signature.

[magnetman]

Firstly, a broker is indeed a boat estate agent as someone else pointed out. There are good and bad estate agents. A broker who deliberately misrepresents a boat is probably on dodgy ground should the hapless buyer pursue them in law.

 

If you are provided with a photo of the boat in a condition which does not reflect reality and you choose to travel a long distance on the assumption the photo is accurate could you claim travel expenses on the basis of misrepresentation?

Edited February 12, 2007 by magnetman

[Dominic M]

If you are provided with a photo of the boat in a condition which does not reflect reality and you choose to travel a long distance on the assumption the photo is accurate could you claim travel expenses on the basis of misrepresentation?

 

Depends. Was it private or through a broker? If a broker, do they publish a disclaimer with the details? Did you ask if it was a recent photo?

 

I'd put it down to experience. It is ridiculous if people use unrepresentative photos to advertise a boat for sale - they are simply wasting everyone's time. But it does happen I'm afraid.

 

DM

[magnetman]

Depends. Was it private or through a broker? If a broker, do they publish a disclaimer with the details? Did you ask if it was a recent photo?

 

It wasn't me (he says, hoping not to get nicked), I was referring to the original subject of this thread, there was a picture on a certain website showing the boat in question in good condition and I believe that the original poster did travel some distance to view the boat, to find it in very much worse condition than advertised.

 

edited to say I see now your not asking me personally... (must go to tesco they do good frozen brains kept cold by the BM turkeys no-ones buying)

Edited February 12, 2007 by magnetman

[BlueStringPudding]

I have received an interesting response from Harral Brokers today ref my enquiry re a copy of the last survey report on their boat which is the topic of this thread.

 

Chris

 

Dear Chris,

 

 

We have never held the survey and although requested the owner before last was unable to find or supply it. The exterior of the boat needs attention, the interior needs finishing off, the currant heating system is an “Ellis” boiler and a solid fuel stove. I wish I could be more helpful as I appreciate that long distance travel on todays motorways is to be avoided unless the outcome is favourable. I feel this boat should be treated as a renovation project.

 

 

Very best regards

 

Sue

 

 

Hi Chris,

 

I suspect this response is as a direct result of my complaining to them face-to-face and specifically naming Sue as the culprit who told me on the phone that there's defintiely no rust - which I told them was a blatant lie and I'd have preferred either an honest "yes" or a slightly evasive "I dont know" than a complete heap of doggy doos.

 

I suspect they haven't had enough home truths before and she may well have had her wrists slapped this time (but she's only one of three different staff members who each gave me different and contradictory information about the boat) so they're probably as bad as each other.

 

 

 

I'm not sure that businesses should contribute to any extent to a forum that seems primarily for users to exchange ideas and views, but I had to register and offer a view from this side of the fence on this topic, after my attention was drawn to it by a boating colleague. I work in brokerage.

 

Firstly, a broker is indeed a boat estate agent as someone else pointed out. There are good and bad estate agents. A broker who deliberately misrepresents a boat is probably on dodgy ground should the hapless buyer pursue them in law.

 

Secondly, an intelligent broker knows that today's buyer is tomorrow's seller, and people appreciate honesty and helpful advice. We never seek to misrepresent any boat we broker and we inspect each one in great detail, but we do make the point that we are not surveyors and that any buyer must satisfy themselves as to the soundness of the vessel, using a surveyor of their choice if they wish to go the survey route.

 

Thirdly, there are only two inland waterway brokers who are members of ABYA, the Association of Brokers and Yacht Agents. This requires a broker to adhere to a number of conditions - such as operating a Client Account to protect both buyers' and sellers' funds, professional indemnity insurance, and a demonstrable professionalism both in honesty and accuracy in presenting a boat's details to ensuring a proper chain of title to protect the new owner.

 

I don't want or intend to use this site for advertising purpose, so I will simply add that we are based at Crick Wharf in Northants. The other ABYA broker is Virginia Currer Marine.

 

Dominic Miles

 

Hi Dominic,

 

I didn't know there were only two brokers who are members of ABYA - thanks for the info. Incidentally both Crick and VC have really good websites with plenty of useful information about each boat. If the staff are as user friendly, then great!

 

Thanks

 

It wasn't me (he says, hoping not to get nicked), I was referring to the original subject of this thread, there was a picture on a certain website showing the boat in question in good condition and I believe that the original poster did travel some distance to view the boat, to find it in very much worse condition than advertised.

 

edited to say I see now your not asking me personally... (must go to tesco they do good frozen brains kept cold by the BM turkeys no-ones buying)

 

Hi Magnetman,

 

Although the photo thing is a very good point, it was only an illustration of what I think to be the real misrepresentation, which is being lied to on the phone - (see the list of statements towards the bottom of my original post). These weren't just random statements but the answers to specific questions I put to them. That really is misrepressentation.

[carlt]

Hi Chris,

 

I suspect this response is as a direct result of my complaining to them face-to-face and specifically naming Sue as the culprit who told me on the phone that there's defintiely no rust - which I told them was a blatant lie and I'd have preferred either an honest "yes" or a slightly evasive "I dont know" than a complete heap of doggy doos.

 

I suspect they haven't had enough home truths before and she may well have had her wrists slapped this time (but she's only one of three different staff members who each gave me different and contradictory information about the boat) so they're probably as bad as each other.

 

They've also probably been told to have a look here. If peoples' displeasure at lying is publicised then it might make all brokers think about their descriptions. If normal people can describe their goods honestly on the likes of eblag and still sell them then why can't the pros?

 

There's nothing wrong with selling a project, just tell it how it is and price it accordingly.

[BlueStringPudding]

They've also probably been told to have a look here. If peoples' displeasure at lying is publicised then it might make all brokers think about their descriptions. If normal people can describe their goods honestly on the likes of eblag and still sell them then why can't the pros?

 

There's nothing wrong with selling a project, just tell it how it is and price it accordingly.

 

True

[Dominic M]

Hi Dominic,

 

I didn't know there were only two brokers who are members of ABYA - thanks for the info. Incidentally both Crick and VC have really good websites with plenty of useful information about each boat. If the staff are as user friendly, then great!

 

Thanks

 

Just call us anytime - 01788 822115. (I hope the moderators don't object to this inclusion but we are always happy to offer advice and assistance.) Being straightforward about what we do is paramount.

 

Dominic

[Dominic M]

Dominic

 

First of all welcome to the forum, it is always good to here the other side, your experience may well help and who knows it may help your sales

 

So if you are not to busy drop in at any time.

 

Check with the owner (Jon) or 'mods' you may well be able to add a link in your signature.

Thank you. We are always happy to offer advice to anyone. Whether you agree with it is one of the joys of boat ownership!

 

Dominic Miles

[alan_fincher]

Yes,

 

Welcome Dominic, and thanks for the input.

 

I must also be careful not to get into the advertising thing, but clearly from the look of the website for the broker you work for, there are much better details published than with many. (In fact they are probably the best available, provided the boats really do look as good in the flesh as they do in the details!).

 

The problem I can see though, if you don't mind my saying, is that I don't think you tend to handle many boats at the type of price point where this kind of problem seems to be far more widespread.

 

In fact from a quick look, of 30 (or so) boats you are handling, including those already under offer, I didn't spot any in the "sub-£30K" asking price.

 

It would be great if people could get reliable details on a potential viewing, irrespective of price band, or selling agent.

 

There are some very good £20K to £30k buys out there, and there is no reason in my mind why buyers on this type of budget should be treated any less well than those in the market for something more expensive.

 

(BTW, I do realise the other broker mentioned does sell quite a few lower priced boats, often with a fairly frank assessment of condition or work required. That at least is more honest than what has gone on here).

 

Alan

[BlueStringPudding]

Just call us anytime - 01788 822115. (I hope the moderators don't object to this inclusion but we are always happy to offer advice and assistance.) Being straightforward about what we do is paramount.

 

Dominic

 

Cheers Dominic - I'll keep perusing the website and do that.

 

 

Yes,

 

Welcome Dominic, and thanks for the input.

 

I must also be careful not to get into the advertising thing, but clearly from the look of the website for the broker you work for, there are much better details published than with many. (In fact they are probably the best available, provided the boats really do look as good in the flesh as they do in the details!).

 

The problem I can see though, if you don't mind my saying, is that I don't think you tend to handle many boats at the type of price point where this kind of problem seems to be far more widespread.

 

In fact from a quick look, of 30 (or so) boats you are handling, including those already under offer, I didn't spot any in the "sub-£30K" asking price.

 

It would be great if people could get reliable details on a potential viewing, irrespective of price band, or selling agent.

 

There are some very good £20K to £30k buys out there, and there is no reason in my mind why buyers on this type of budget should be treated any less well than those in the market for something more expensive.

 

(BTW, I do realise the other broker mentioned does sell quite a few lower priced boats, often with a fairly frank assessment of condition or work required. That at least is more honest than what has gone on here).

 

Alan

 

Fair point - I'm sure the only reason I haven't given Crick a bell as yet is because I haven't found a boat in my meagre price range for the kinda size I'm looking for.

 

But you're quite right, Alan, irrespective of price, the write up should be fair and representative of what's on offer.