old boat, duff engine, worth a look?

[jenberi]

Hi as the title says I'm considering having a look at an old boat, manufacturer unknown according to owner, 36ft (1975) sides replated 4 years ago bottom not. Needs some work done inside but not enormous amounts (rewiring being the main issue.... apparently) .The owner says the engine block is cracked but the engine still functional an not leaking oil. Now I dont know a lot about engines but I know what the block is an it seems an unfortunately large an important part of the engine to be cracked. Ive read a little about repair via welding and stitching and neither seem great solutions; I am therefore assuming new engine in the imminent future required. Assuming the hull is sound(I know a big assumption but hoping the sides only were replated because the bottom didnt need replating and not because the owner who did the replating prior to the currrent one ran out of money) and the innards only need rewiring is it worth considering it (asking price £7500)? I'm wondering if the engine might potentially be replaced with an outboard as its a relatively small boat or an perhaps an SR2 as has been mentioned on other threads?

Edited December 6, 2014 by jenberi

[Ray T]

The owner says the engine block is cracked but the engine still functional and not leaking oil.

 

No ? but it may be leaking coolant into the oil or vise versa. Me, I'd run a mile.

Edited December 7, 2014 by Ray T

[ukdiggerboy]

thats a lot for a boat that age and in need of an engine !!!

 

if the block is cracked it will defo need a new engine

[ditchcrawler]

How big is your budget

[jenberi]

Thanks all My budget is below £10,000

[Guest User]

Hi Jenberi.

 

Do you need to get a boat right now or could you wait a year or two and get some more money together? If your total budget is under £10,000 then I doubt it will cover the boat you've mentioned when you add in the necessary repairs and maintenance (I'm kind of assuming you're also aware of the additional costs of on-going maintenance and living on a boat?). It might be a better option to see if you can wait and get closer to £20,000 together, it will open up a much larger range of far more habitable boats.

 

Looking at the boat you've mentioned http://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/feature.phtml?id=394670 it seems overpriced for a boat which may well need a recon/replacement engine, a full re-wiring and has a hull of uncertain condition. There also seems to be mention of the diesel heater being in a mess too. I would guess there are likely to be other expensive 'issues' as well. Hence £7500 is way too much and if you were to pay that you could well end up having to pay the same again to put right all those jobs that need doing - unless you're a DIY demon?

 

Sorry if this sounds a bit gloomy but there are plenty of other boats out there, it's worth going to look at a few.

 

 

LC x

Edited December 6, 2014 by Lady Cassandra

[dccruiser]

I couldn't agree more with the above, I recently sold a 1982 project boat of a similar size but with a fully rebuilt bmc 1500 , with a decent hull survey for less than 7.5k and have bought a lovely 60' cruiser stern ,boat with a pram hood cover and cratch

built in 1990 with a modern 4 cylinder lister engine, full central heating , new cooker and shoreline fridge , It was only refitted 2 years ago then only used a few times by the previous owner , so everything is as new , in fact from the inside you would think you were on an almost new luxury end of the market boat.

.... I paid not much more than your budget for it , had I finished off the old boat I would have ended up paying the same, if not more, for a 10 year older boat 24' shorter in size... the only thing that lets the new boat down is that it needs a repaint, once that is done I have been told by a broker he would happily market it for over 30k and sell it for 28 after commission.

I had set my budget at 30k and looked at a lot of boats ... it is amazing just how much you can haggle ...one I saw was up for 28k I haggled it down to 18.5k and would have bought it had this one had not come along .... even 5k more on your budget will make a massive difference to what you can buy, just like me you just need to get lucky and be in the right place at the right time.

 

best of luck

Rick

[Alan de Enfield]

You may not like this - but it is trying to help you.

 

You are afflicted with the 'newbie' I need a boat, any boat and I need it now.

Your rush to buy a totally innapropriate boat will in the end bankrupt you. Do you have the skills to do all of the DIY work yourself ? (not just painting the walls - but disconnecting and lifting out engines, refitting a new engine, resolving wiring issues between the two engines etc etc) Boatyard charges will be probably in the order of £60 + VAT per hour

 

You will need to find a replacement engine that is exactly the same model and marinisation set up as the one in the boat - do you know where there is one or how much that would likely cost ?

If you buy a different engine then you will need the engine mounts cutting out of the boat and new ones welding in position.

 

Without an engine you cannot move, are limited to ways to produce hot water and recharge your batteries.

 

I had an engine "stitched" after it froze in the winter (it did not leak oil, but cooling water poured out of it) - it was not a success.

 

As a novice, you need to looking to buy a boat with absolute minimum "work to be done", you will have enough of a problem finding the time and money to keep on top of regular maintenance without buying a wreck.

 

As has been stated - once you get to £20k+ you start to find reasonable boats (they will still need some money spending on them) so it may be better to delay your plans a little, borrow £15k from the bank or family and buy 'better';.

 

You will need money for each survey - maybe £600-£800, so you need to minimise the number of surveys you have or you will spend all your budget and have nothing to show for it.

 

Once you have bought a boat you still need to have "a couple of grand" in available cash to pay for BSS, Licence, Insurance, moorings, fuel, coal, gas, and small breakdowns / maintenance.

 

Don't get yourself in the position that you have a wreck of a boat that you cannot not sell, nowhere to live and no money, a boat can be a very sad/sorry place if circumstances are against you - don't fall into the trap.

 

Please take this as it is intended.

[dccruiser]

Wise words Alan, I hadnt thought to include the general costs, I paid 50 quid just for the deposit on a marina key, also there was no hookup cable, piling hooks, handcuff keys , water hose or any other of the normal things I gave away in the sale of my old boat, so be very aware there will be hidden costs to consider.

Rick

[Paul C]

Its probably worth a look just to see what you get for your money, as in what kind of problems you'd be letting yourself in for. Then look at a £20k boat, and a £30k boat, to see what a bit more money buys you.

[ditchcrawler]

Thanks all My budget is below £10,000

I would suggest you forget it then, as I am sure you will spend more than that putting things right.

[nebulae]

Have sucessfully bronze welded a water cooled Lister block. Luckily, the end result worked .Not easy and a large element of luck involved .Recently sold a Lister SR" with gearbox for £750 .A deal like that would be better than trying to coble up a wreck .As has been said above,a boat is a hole in the water into which you pour money.

[jenberi]

Thanks for the advice all went to have a look. It is a very nice little boat as in dry an quiet warm. Engine still runs but owner won't budge on price. Seems to know his stuff about boats so trust it won't sink. As for budget to save 20,000 will take me on current wages about4 years. Borrowing of family..... Well I'm glad that you guys have wealthy families it makes life generally easier. If my folks had 20k spare it would make their lives a lot easier too . But seriously thank you for the advice. Yes I am in the really want a boat mindset but too poor to drop (what to me anyway) is a load a cash on something that just eats more an more? The advice on here is great too. Combined hopefully it will prevent me buying a black hole of a boat?

Edited December 7, 2014 by jenberi

[Bee]

I would have a look but the price is high for what you would get, imagine the whole lot taken apart and laid on the towpath like some sort of boat jumble, worth the price? not really, cracked block? could be fixed maybe, maybe not, needs an experienced eye. After all the work what have you got? nothing very special really, only interesting if you are desperate, can halve the price, can do the work plus unknown rot and rust and stuff and so on. there are boats twice as good for not a lot more. Ah, seem to have crossed in the post.

Edited December 7, 2014 by Bee

[Naughty Cal]

What makes you think we all have wealthy families?

 

We borrowed from the bank to buy our boat. Wouldn't dream of asking the family to fund my hobby.

[OldGoat]

AFAIK a Sabb engine is direct water cooled (water from the canal and out again). There's no heat exchanger and running canal water through you calorifier is not going to do it any good.

10HP isn't going to produce much hot water anyway. Or charge the batteries much either.

 

Sabbs are / have been used by sailing boats as a 'get you into port' engine and that's about all.

OTOH they are reputed to be very reliable - just as well as spares are astronomical (Source www.ybw.com/forums) ). Solidly built, so may be repairable, again look at ybw.

 

I would hazard a guess that the seller bought all the bits and then discovered that the engine / heating just wouldn't do what was needed....

 

 

[Ray T]

AFAIK a Sabb engine is direct water cooled (water from the canal and out again). There's no heat exchanger and running canal water through you calorifier is not going to do it any good.

10HP isn't going to produce much hot water anyway. Or charge the batteries much either.

 

Sabbs are / have been used by sailing boats as a 'get you into port' engine and that's about all.

OTOH they are reputed to be very reliable - just as well as spares are astronomical (Source www.ybw.com/forums) ). Solidly built, so may be repairable, again look at ybw.

 

I would hazard a guess that the seller bought all the bits and then discovered that the engine / heating just wouldn't do what was needed....

 

 

 

Union Canal Carriers seem to manage with their fleet of Barney Boats powered by single cylinder Sabb's.

 

http://www.unioncanalcarriers.co.uk/our%20boats.htm#wrekin

[OldGoat]

 

Union Canal Carriers seem to manage with their fleet of Barney Boats powered by single cylinder Sabb's.

 

http://www.unioncanalcarriers.co.uk/our%20boats.htm#Wrekin

 

I'm obliged to you - I wonder how they do it. There mus be a heat exchanger fitted.

Seems I got it all wrong.

Oh Poo....

 

Here's a link to a service manual:-

www.sleeman-hawken.co.uk/files/service-and-maintanence-tips.pdf

 

Salty stuff forum here:-

http://www.eventides.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=228

 

Looks like a faryman heat exchanger could be fitted.

[boathunter]

Thanks for the advice all went to have a look. It is a very nice little boat as in dry an quiet warm. Engine still runs but owner won't budge on price. Seems to know his stuff about boats so trust it won't sink. As for budget to save 20,000 will take me on current wages about4 years. Borrowing of family..... Well I'm glad that you guys have wealthy families it makes life generally easier. If my folks had 20k spare it would make their lives a lot easier too . But seriously thank you for the advice. Yes I am in the really want a boat mindset but too poor to drop (what to me anyway) is a load a cash on something that just eats more an more The advice on here is great too. Combined hopefully it will prevent me buying a black hole of a boat

The thing with old things like boats is that every time you up your budget £5K, you potentially save £10K of repairs. What I mean is that to buy your boat with something like the engine needing replacing, will save your £2.5K but cost you £5K. Buy one that someone else already fixed up - you never get your money back if you have to pay labour to get things done.

 

I'd keep saving - even another £5K will help.

[jenberi]

Its probably worth a look just to see what you get for your money, as in what kind of problems you'd be letting yourself in for. Then look at a £20k boat, and a £30k boat, to see what a bit more money buys you.

I have done the above at a marina with several boats and gone, `ooh what a nice boat,' This in no way makes them anywhere nearer m y price range and overall was rather depressing

What makes you think we all have wealthy families?

 

We borrowed from the bank to buy our boat. Wouldn't dream of asking the family to fund my hobby.

alans suggestion I may wish to borrow 20k from a family member (an I assume by it being a hobby does that mean that you can afford a house an a boat, which is great and an enviable position but not one I'm quiet in at the present ) But borrowing from the bank is another option, just rather hate owing people, specially banks, money, might be something I need to get over.

 

AFAIK a Sabb engine is direct water cooled (water from the canal and out again). There's no heat exchanger and running canal water through you calorifier is not going to do it any good.

10HP isn't going to produce much hot water anyway. Or charge the batteries much either.

 

Sabbs are / have been used by sailing boats as a 'get you into port' engine and that's about all.

OTOH they are reputed to be very reliable - just as well as spares are astronomical (Source www.ybw.com/forums) ). Solidly built, so may be repairable, again look at ybw.

 

I would hazard a guess that the seller bought all the bits and then discovered that the engine / heating just wouldn't do what was needed....

 

 

The owner has a generator and solar power both of which are included in the price. I would guess to get around that issue.

The thing with old things like boats is that every time you up your budget £5K, you potentially save £10K of repairs. What I mean is that to buy your boat with something like the engine needing replacing, will save your £2.5K but cost you £5K. Buy one that someone else already fixed up - you never get your money back if you have to pay labour to get things done.

 

I'd keep saving - even another £5K will help.

thanks boat hunter P:S like your avatar.

Edited December 7, 2014 by jenberi

[jenberi]

You may not like this - but it is trying to help you.

 

You are afflicted with the 'newbie' I need a boat, any boat and I need it now. Yerrrs theres another reason for this chiefly that I have to move out of where I am at the mo and have a short term place sorted, but all the time I'm renting I'm effectively evaporating money.

Your rush to buy a totally innapropriate boat will in the end bankrupt you. Do you have the skills to do all of the DIY work yourself ? (not just painting the walls - but disconnecting and lifting out engines, refitting a new engine, resolving wiring issues between the two engines etc etc) Boatyard charges will be probably in the order of £60 + VAT per hour

 

Useful to know average charges , I have the skills to replace anything wooden, bulkheads, floors etc, paint, black, weld (as long as its not the hull, I wouldnt trust my welding for that) Youre right I would have to get someone else to repair the engine an do the technical side of that.

 

You will need to find a replacement engine that is exactly the same model and marinisation set up as the one in the boat - do you know where there is one or how much that would likely cost ? I have had a bit of a look an apparently you see them going for a few hundred pounds sometimes, according to the owner

If you buy a different engine then you will need the engine mounts cutting out of the boat and new ones welding in position. That doesn't sound to difficult to execute, the difficulty would be knowing what shape etc to cut.

 

Without an engine you cannot move, are limited to ways to produce hot water and recharge your batteries.

 

I had an engine "stitched" after it froze in the winter (it did not leak oil, but cooling water poured out of it) - it was not a success.

 

Yes, I have read stiching and welding doesnt work :/

 

 

You will need money for each survey - maybe £600-£800, so you need to minimise the number of surveys you have or you will spend all your budget and have nothing to show for it.

Absolutely, already worked that one out :/

 

Once you have bought a boat you still need to have "a couple of grand" in available cash to pay for BSS, Licence, Insurance, moorings, fuel, coal, gas, and small breakdowns / maintenance.

Hmm Id budgeted a grand, might have to up that :/

 

Don't get yourself in the position that you have a wreck of a boat that you cannot not sell, nowhere to live and no money, a boat can be a very sad/sorry place if circumstances are against you - don't fall into the trap.

 

Please take this as it is intended.

 

Absolutely appreciate the advice

[dccruiser]

Thanks for the advice all went to have a look. It is a very nice little boat as in dry an quiet warm. Engine still runs but owner won't budge on price. Seems to know his stuff about boats so trust it won't sink. As for budget to save 20,000 will take me on current wages about4 years. Borrowing of family..... Well I'm glad that you guys have wealthy families it makes life generally easier. If my folks had 20k spare it would make their lives a lot easier too . But seriously thank you for the advice. Yes I am in the really want a boat mindset but too poor to drop (what to me anyway) is a load a cash on something that just eats more an more The advice on here is great too. Combined hopefully it will prevent me buying a black hole of a boat

I lived on a beautiful 72' boat ....lost it in a divorce, have just got back to having another beautiful narrowboat by buying a tupperware cruiser cheap, doing it up, selling it on and repeating the process, so if you are really handy it is something to consider as I made between 2 and 3 times my investment on every one barring a 27' nauticus I bought for 1500 and sold for 7000.

It took me 5 boats and 4 years but I did use the boats extensively and was in no hurry, l also only started with a £500 budget, had I been on a mission and had 10k I would have doubled it in under 12 months.

if you or anyone else would like any advice on where to buy and sell them and what to do to achieve maximum return I am happy to help

 

Rick

[Alan de Enfield]

 

alans suggestion I may wish to borrow 20k from a family member (an I assume by it being a hobby does that mean that you can afford a house an a boat, which is great and an enviable position but not one I'm quiet in at the present ) But borrowing from the bank is another option, just rather hate owing people, specially banks, money, might be something I need to get over.

 

 

 

I did suggest that you try the bank first - the 'family' option was the second choice !!!

[Dinz]

Had a look at link & TBH the seller seems to be hiding little/nothing.

Frank & up front with everything.

The water jacket MAY be bodgable with epoxy but at least it runs.

Oil seal a few quid 'n a day or so to sort.

IF all else is as stated not so bad.

Remember BSS.

May find gas system needs renewing?

Basic engine so good start to learn on.

Low power if in a river though.

Lots of windows so in winter lot of heat loss.

Heavy curtains may help.

Sorry not to be so 'Doom & Gloom' as most of the others.

But DO get the hull checked over.[about 10-15% of boats sale price+ in this case]

Main thing is do YOU like it?

As an aside could get hull survey & BSS check over at same time which may save a bit now 'n a load in the future.

If the inspection picks up all the owner reported bits 'n bobs & not much else then maybe not so bad after all.

[jenberi]

Had a look at link & TBH the seller seems to be hiding little/nothing.

Frank & up front with everything.

The water jacket MAY be bodgable with epoxy but at least it runs.

Oil seal a few quid 'n a day or so to sort.

IF all else is as stated not so bad.

Remember BSS.

May find gas system needs renewing?

Basic engine so good start to learn on.

Low power if in a river though.

Lots of windows so in winter lot of heat loss.

Heavy curtains may help.

Sorry not to be so 'Doom & Gloom' as most of the others.

But DO get the hull checked over.[about 10-15% of boats sale price+ in this case]

Main thing is do YOU like it?

As an aside could get hull survey & BSS check over at same time which may save a bit now 'n a load in the future.

If the inspection picks up all the owner reported bits 'n bobs & not much else then maybe not so bad after all.

Yeah absolutely the guy was upfront and not hiding anything, its a nice little boat tbh but the owner wont budge on price and the costs of a survey and new engine looming in the iniment future are quiet high, the work that needs doing will cost a decent amount including the replumbing of the stove. If I had a higher budget it would be considerable.

Edited December 10, 2014 by jenberi