air bnb and boat renting

[Lady Muck]

Shared ownership can and does go wrong though, anyway, how many of the share boats have the commercial BSS? They should do. This discussion is mostly about unlicensed hotel boats - not longer term rentals.

[David Mack]

 

I pointed out that from a purely legal point of view the 'shared ownership' option allows renters to steer clear of any restrictions that CaRT may wish to impose.

 

So are you saying that those who 'rent' a boat for a night through airbnb or similar are not actually renting but are buying a share one day and selling it back the next, and so the boat doesn't need a CRT business licence or higher standard BSC?

[Paul G2]

Yes, I did read the thread.

 

I pointed out that from a purely legal point of view the 'shared ownership' option allows renters to steer clear of any restrictions that CaRT may wish to impose.

 

Do you have a problem with unchallenged information published three years ago?

 

 

 

 

I don't even know what "unchallenged information" is. I do know what you referred to with the shared ownership scheme and that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. It's not even remotely related.

 

Honestly, I don't think you did read the whole thread because you are smart enough to understand what it is about.

Edited October 16, 2014 by Paul G2

[kevinl]

I do know what you referred to with the shared ownership scheme and that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. It's not even remotely related.

 

Honestly, I don't think you did read the whole thread because you are smart enough to understand what it is about.

I think that what's being referred by "shared ownership" is the idea that I sell you a percentage of my boat for the period you "hire" it, thus you become a part owner and so are exempt from the letting regulations. By the letter of the regulations it would seem this loophole is probably feasibly, I then buy back the share (which in a way acts as a deposit too) when you return the boat.

There are many standard shared ownership schemes, privately run and some people's share is as little as a week, they're all legit, how could you prove mine wasn't (if I were to start one, which I'm not), even if I advertised it for on airbnb, once you become a part owner of the boat no matter how little the share you own then probably, technically you stay inside the rules. That's what I understand from other threads on here that has always been the consensus of opinion and I've never seem anything in the regs to contradict it. Sure it's a loophole but I'm not aware how CRT could challenge it, there are no regs about the proportion of a boat you have to own or the length of time you have to keep it so where's the rule break. If you don't break the letter of the law the spirit of the law is worth Jack Shit in a court.

K

[Detling]

Just a thought, the 'offence' of wrong license and thus wrong BSS and insurance only occurs whilst the renter is in residence. Between rentals the boat is merely an empty private boat on a mooring and assuming compliance with mooring and movement rules then the boat is perfectly compliant. In order for CRT to remove the boat for non compliance surely they will have to prove the resident was not an owner or friend but actually paying rent in a commercial way. This opens up a new can of worms about barter.

[mayalld]

Yes, I did read the thread.

 

I pointed out that from a purely legal point of view the 'shared ownership' option allows renters to steer clear of any restrictions that CaRT may wish to impose.

 

Do you have a problem with unchallenged information published three years ago?

 

 

 

The information wasn't "unchallenged" (well, it may have been unchallenged on the dark side, but only because Tom doesn't put up with dissenting opinions).

 

It has been claimed that the shared ownership option side steps the legal issues. Frankly that claim is ludicrous.

 

If I own 1/64 of a boat, but use it all the time, and pay the owner of 63/64 of the boat for doing so, then that is rental. I am hiring his share of the boat for a financial consideration, and no amount of dressing it up by the snake oil purveyors will change that!

[Allan(nb Albert)]

 

 

I don't even know what "unchallenged information" is. I do know what you referred to with the shared ownership scheme and that has nothing to do with the topic at hand. It's not even remotely related.

 

Honestly, I don't think you did read the whole thread because you are smart enough to understand what it is about.

 

I was pointing out that boat renting has been going on for years and that information was published some three years ago regarding how owners could legitimately 'rent' boats via a shared ownership arrangement.

 

Sorry if you have a problem in understanding that.

 

[Hawkmoth]

I know that the insurance company wouldn't pay out, that is why I am saying it is over regulated. If we didn't have the overly strict regulations it wouldn't be a problem.

I'm sure you're a big boy, who can really look after themselves in this tough old world out here. Anarchy sounds wonderful but only if you're top of the pile. That's what the law is for in many cases, to protect people from exploitation.

Landlords would very quickly jump on the relaxed rules and who knows where it would go from there.

Bob

[Paul C]

But owners don't get those hand over procedures either. I just paid my money and got the keys, nobody showed me how to use anything...

 

The owner might not know the hazards either. Anyone can buy a boat with no previous experience.

 

You make a good point for MORE regulation to be brought in for those buying and selling boats, to close up the disparity you've perceived.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

 

The information wasn't "unchallenged" (well, it may have been unchallenged on the dark side, but only because Tom doesn't put up with dissenting opinions).

 

It has been claimed that the shared ownership option side steps the legal issues. Frankly that claim is ludicrous.

 

If I own 1/64 of a boat, but use it all the time, and pay the owner of 63/64 of the boat for doing so, then that is rental. I am hiring his share of the boat for a financial consideration, and no amount of dressing it up by the snake oil purveyors will change that!

You make the false assumption that the information was published in narrowboatworld.

 

I have made the point because I am aware of two boaters that have 'hired' using a shared ownership arrangement. It works and the risks for both parties (and the rest of us) are much less than the illegal 'hiring' that appears to be on the increase.

 

 

[Dharl]

I guess it would only work if the 'hirers' knew that they where in fact purchasing a share in the boat, if an unscrupulous "WaterLord" ( patent pending) didn't inform the 'hirer' of this small fact then surely all bets are off?

 

the trouble with "work a round's " is while they might be legal as they are not following the spirit of the law which is something that our learned friends are known to frown on. More importantly if you are running a boat as a business then there are guidelines and certain laws / procedures that you need to follow, otherwise its not fair on other business who ARE following the correct procedure.

[Paul C]

Surely there is a greater risk - to the boatlords - of their boat being "stolen" (arguable if someone owns eg a 1/64 share) and sold on, never to be seen again. Obviously unlike a house, where a tenant could trash the place but the land and the infrastucture remains, a boat could simply sail off into the distance. If they're prepared to take this risk, I don't think they're going to be that bothered with not quite meeting the licence requirements etc.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

Surely there is a greater risk - to the boatlords - of their boat being "stolen" (arguable if someone owns eg a 1/64 share) and sold on, never to be seen again. Obviously unlike a house, where a tenant could trash the place but the land and the infrastucture remains, a boat could simply sail off into the distance. If they're prepared to take this risk, I don't think they're going to be that bothered with not quite meeting the licence requirements etc.

Why? I would suggest that a signed agreement would be helpful in establishing that the 'hirer' did not have the authority to sell their share to anyone other than the second owner at an agree price.

 

 

 

[Lady Muck]

Surely there is a greater risk - to the boatlords - of their boat being "stolen" (arguable if someone owns eg a 1/64 share) and sold on, never to be seen again.

This happened last year - tenant changed paperwork and sold the boat on, declared it as stolen to cover his tracks. No comeback. Share boats run in this way are really not risk free! And how many of these share boats have the commercial BSS? Which you are required to have if any 'rent' money is changing hands? Barely any! So they are still voiding their insurance. And wasn't Que Sera Sera a share boat too?

Edited October 16, 2014 by Lady Muck

[MtB]

Surely there is a greater risk - to the boatlords - of their boat being "stolen" (arguable if someone owns eg a 1/64 share) and sold on, never to be seen again. Obviously unlike a house, where a tenant could trash the place but the land and the infrastucture remains, a boat could simply sail off into the distance. If they're prepared to take this risk, I don't think they're going to be that bothered with not quite meeting the licence requirements etc.

 

 

This strikes me as an excellent development of the scam. Illegitimately hire a boat for a week from AirBNB, hold a load of viewings, sell it, then hire the same boat again on hand-over day. Scarper. Do it again.

 

 

MtB

[Paul C]

 

 

This strikes me as an excellent development of the scam. Illegitimately hire a boat for a week from AirBNB, hold a load of viewings, sell it, then hire the same boat again on hand-over day. Scarper. Do it again.

 

 

MtB

 

Its a laughably simple scam. And its been done before too (well, indirectly). There used to be a scam where someone would hire a car with the same engine as some clapped-out car's they'd bought cheaply. They'd then swap the engines over and return the car to the hire firm with knackered engine. I guess engine numbers tracking and the increasing complexity of engine etc has made this type of scam unpopular now.

[mayalld]

You make the false assumption that the information was published in narrowboatworld.

 

I have made the point because I am aware of two boaters that have 'hired' using a shared ownership arrangement. It works and the risks for both parties (and the rest of us) are much less than the illegal 'hiring' that appears to be on the increase.

 

 

 

You assume that this is legal and above board, on the basis that those who rent out boats using this putative loophole assert that it is legal and above board.

 

At the risk of sounding clichéd;

 

Well, they would say that wouldn't they!

[Lady Muck]

 

 

This strikes me as an excellent development of the scam. Illegitimately hire a boat for a week from AirBNB, hold a load of viewings, sell it, then hire the same boat again on hand-over day. Scarper. Do it again.

 

 

MtB

I'm really surprised that this hasn't happened yet. But knowing the London waterways like I do, I'd say, simply a matter of time. I can't believe people are so trusting/gormless/naive as to moor their 'toy' (containing complete strangers who know nothing about boats), up to another boaters pins. But they do. I guess money turns peoples heads.

[Sabcat]

I'm going to London at the weekend. I might bring a boat back with me.

[Lady Muck]

Get me one as well, please I fancy a big luxury widebeam.

[Sabcat]

Get me one as well, please I fancy a big luxury widebeam.

 

Find one up for rent on a site that's empty somewhere and just take it and paint it.

[midnight cowboy]

For those against (over) regulation - whilst I agree with this sentiment - there are 2 reasons why renting boats needs some regulation: firstly to ensure risks such as gas and solid fuel stove fires are minimised and, secondly because canals such as the regent's through N London will soon completely clog up with continuous moorers. Yes - that's right, I am fortunate to have a house and navigate a community boat on the same, so cheap accomodation is nto an issue for me. If we want to do something about this we need to do something about the housing market so that properly affordable places becoem available and then the cut will be left to those who wish to navigate it [whether they live aboard or not]

not!

[cotswoldsman]

Just looked at the boats on airbnb could only find 3 price range from £100 per night to £150 per night. The best one seemed to be a wide beam (New Boat Company) it is £125 per night or £750 for 1 week few dates available in November not much left for October mainly a few mid week days fully booked from 20 December to 5 January must say looks very nice and can accommodate 4. Cleaning fee is £50 minimum booking 3 nights

Edited October 16, 2014 by cotswoldsman

[carlt]

You make the false assumption that the information was published in narrowboatworld.

 

 

 

and you make the false assumption that using shared ownership to avoid the regulations attached to boat rental wasn't discussed here in 2011 (It was).

 

This is a completely different matter.

Edited October 17, 2014 by carlt

[John G]

http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/whats-on/whats-on-news/airbnb-coventry-11-quirkiest-places-11321391

Featured in the local rag...

Edited May 12, 2016 by John G