Beta or Gardner?

[Pen n Ink]

Ok

 

So we're starting to narrow things down. We will have a pair of newbuild 57' narrowboats - permanent liveaboard / traders.

 

We're designing from scratch, but need to choose engines fairly early on to ensure layout matches. We're going for a trad layout for the motor but obviously the position of the engine will depend on Vintage or Modern. So - what do peeps think? Choice between Gardner something-or-other (which would people recommend for this configuration?) and Beta probably 43 / 50?

 

I believe that as a trading boat the vintage "pull magnet" effect would actually more-or-less offset the cost difference but am I mad to even think about it?

[Sabcat]

Not mad at all. If you're not really into Gardners though you can get a rebuilt Lister HA or HB for much less money.

[Sir Nibble]

Is this a trick question?

[arbutus]

I would think carefully about where you want the engine exhaust gasses to exit. Vintage engines tend to have their exhaust stack exiting through the roof and the steerer will be breathing in a certain amount of the exhaust fumes. Modern engines normally have the exhaust exiting at a low level through the stern, leaving the steerer to breath cleaner air.

I definitely wouldn’t have another boat with a roof mounted exhaust stack no matter how clean the engine exhaust looks but I do like the measured tone of a Gardner and the way the boat handles with a large propeller compared to a modern fast revving engine with a smaller propeller.

[MtB]

I would think carefully about where you want the engine exhaust gasses to exit. Vintage engines tend to have their exhaust stack exiting through the roof and the steerer will be breathing in a certain amount of the exhaust fumes. Modern engines normally have the exhaust exiting at a low level through the stern, leaving the steerer to breath cleaner air.

I definitely wouldn’t have another boat with a roof mounted exhaust stack no matter how clean the engine exhaust looks but I do like the measured tone of a Gardner and the way the boat handles with a large propeller compared to a modern fast revving engine with a smaller propeller.

 

There's no reason not to send a Gardner exhaust out through the side. It's only fashion that has them through the roof.

 

Nor is there any reason not to have a modern engine driving a large blade. A 3:1 reduction box gets you a bigger blade and the associated better brakes.

 

MtB

[David Mack]

 

There's no reason not to send a Gardner exhaust out through the side. It's only fashion that has them through the roof.

 

Nor is there any reason not to have a modern engine driving a large blade. A 3:1 reduction box gets you a bigger blade and the associated better brakes.

 

Nor to have a trad back cabin and engine room, but with a modern engine fitted.

[b0atman]

Trader? depending on what is best layout for what your trading do you need outside space that a cruiser stern gives or a back cabin for work space.

Old engine are you ok for maintenance repairs as I presume less knowledge around the system compared to modern engine regards the younger mechanics.

Me I'd go for the Lister if I had the money .

[nicknorman]

Buddha say "take the middle path" which in this context is a Beta JD3.

[Pen n Ink]

Is this a trick question?

 

No - not at all!

 

 

Trader? depending on what is best layout for what your trading do you need outside space that a cruiser stern gives or a back cabin for work space.

Old engine are you ok for maintenance repairs as I presume less knowledge around the system compared to modern engine regards the younger mechanics.

Me I'd go for the Lister if I had the money .

 

All the "trade" will be from the butty which is being built to house workshop etc. The generator for the electrical power required will also be on the butty.

[Bod]

If you like the smell of Brasso, go for the Gardner.

If not, the Beta.

 

Bod

[dave moore]

The only brass on Gardners is the temperature gauge I think, most of the other work is chromed or aluminium. I've just spent 3 days working on a boat with a 3LW fitted. For Brasso, try a Kelvin, mine costs a fortune in the stuff!

 

Cheers

 

Dave

[martyn 1]

The only brass on Gardners is the temperature gauge I think, most of the other work is chromed or aluminium. I've just spent 3 days working on a boat with a 3LW fitted. For Brasso, try a Kelvin, mine costs a fortune in the stuff!

 

Cheers

 

Dave

And all of the oil pipework that is copper and brass. And if your gardner is of the original marine varient then the oil coolers, decompressor gear and a selection of other bits are brass as well.

[Timleech]

The only brass on Gardners is the temperature gauge I think, most of the other work is chromed or aluminium. I've just spent 3 days working on a boat with a 3LW fitted. For Brasso, try a Kelvin, mine costs a fortune in the stuff!

 

Cheers

 

Dave

 

That's right, little or no brass on Gardners. No chrome either, but there is this recent trend to bull up all the aluminium bits so that they look a bit like chrome.

None of that nonsense on mine, but it's hidden away so that nobody sees it anyway (apart from us).

 

Tim

[dave moore]

Thanks both, knew I'd get it only part right! I ignored the copper pipe Work?

 

Dave

[mark99]

Forgive the repost of a previous image but it does illustrate both points made above.

 

1) With a Gardner you can polish up the aluminium to good effect but no real engine brass.

 

2) However the pipework to and fro as said can be polished brass, same for oil cooler for gearbox and sump pump can be in brass.

 

Also - and this is the same for all engines - you can change various things to add engine room effect (or bling if you like). Brass exhaust silencer guard, polished steel header tank and day tank, brass oil pressure gauge (bourdon type) brass paraffin lamp etc.

 

 

 

Edited October 4, 2014 by mark99

[Timleech]

And all of the oil pipework that is copper and brass. And if your gardner is of the original marine varient then the oil coolers, decompressor gear and a selection of other bits are brass as well.

 

Trouble is, if you want to polish it, the copper pipework is pretty inaccessible.

 

Tim

[bizzard]

Polishing brass and copper all the time will wear it out, pipes can end up like lace, peppered with holes.

[martyn 1]

 

Trouble is, if you want to polish it, the copper pipework is pretty inaccessible.

 

Tim

True, you do need twenty knuckles in each finger and fingers the diameter of bit of hair to get to some of it, but that is part of the fun of it........ Sorry did i say fun

 

Polishing brass and copper all the time will wear it out, pipes can end up like lace, peppered with holes.

God, what the hell do you polish your pipework with!!!!! I have work on lifeboats that after 25 years plus in RNLI services with the mechanic pretty much polishing every inch of pipework most days all is still well with no holes etc. But then they do use Brasso not 40 grit sandpaper lol

 

All joking aside, yes you do remove a little material every time you polish but if you manage to wear through the pipes I think the culprit may need thearapy for Brasso abuse..

Edited October 5, 2014 by martyn 1

[MtB]

The only brass on Gardners is the temperature gauge I think, most of the other work is chromed or aluminium. I've just spent 3 days working on a boat with a 3LW fitted. For Brasso, try a Kelvin, mine costs a fortune in the stuff!

 

Cheers

 

Dave

 

Dave,

 

Nothing bad happens if you never polish the brass on a Kelvin.

 

Try it. It's very liberating....

 

 

MtB

[Athy]

Back to the original question: you can have, as suggested in an earlier post, the best of both worlds by specifying a Beta JD3 Tug. This is a slow-revving engine which looks right in an engine room, but is (or can be) a new build. It is actually based on a John Deere engine, so the only possible drawback is that you may sound as if you've come to plough the fields and scatter. At least one forum member has one in his boat and will be able to tell you more about its performance.

 

I have a Gardner 2LW. It sounds right, looks right, has power to spare and never goes wrong. If it does, spare parts are readily available. But to buy a properly rebuilt one is expensive - £15,000 or so.

[MtB]

Back to the original question: you can have, as suggested in an earlier post, the best of both worlds by specifying a Beta JD3 Tug. This is a slow-revving engine which looks right in an engine room, but is (or can be) a new build. It is actually based on a John Deere engine, so the only possible drawback is that you may sound as if you've come to plough the fields and scatter. At least one forum member has one in his boat and will be able to tell you more about its performance.

 

 

Never mind the performance, you are clearly unaware of the multitude of problems a poster here has had with her JD3. An engine best avoided judging by her experience.

 

My BD3 on the other hand was a lovely engine, powerful and reliable, but the exhaust was smokey and it didn't really press my buttons as I wanted a real vintage lump. I sold it for £4.5k. There was a Lister CRK (near identical engine) listed several times on ebay for £1k earlier this year. It never sold, still not sure why not. Looked a bargain to me.

 

MtB

[Athy]

 

 

Never mind the performance, you are clearly unaware of the multitude of problems a poster here has had with her JD3. An engine best avoided judging by her experience.

 

 

Clearly - but I know that Ditchcrawler has one that he seems happy with. I know the BD3 ( a moorer or ex-moorer at Clattercote has one), have heard of the CRK3 but never seen one as far as I'm aware.

Reliability is of course important - but a JD3, as it can be bought new, presumably comes with a guarantee.

 

Other makes of trad engine are of course available - today I was ogling a Kelvin, in the tug Equinox, which was drop-dead gorgeous and sounded like a whole rhythm section, not just a beat. But I think that one needs a fair bit of mechanical skill and knowledge (which you have but I don't) to co-exist happily with such an engine. THe OP's eventual choice should take this into account.

[MtB]

Reliability is of course important - but a JD3, as it can be bought new, presumably comes with a guarantee.

 

True, and one would hope Beta have addressed the long list of problems but if they haven't, getting them fixed free under guarantee isn't really the point is it?

 

I looked at the EQUINOX when it was for sale a few years back, but ended up choosing the ALDEBARAN instead as the interior fit-out had clearly been given little thought by the builders. VERY pretty boat and engine though!

 

 

 

MtB

[Athy]

 

getting them fixed free under guarantee isn't really the point is it?

 

 

 

MtB

Beats the sh1t out of having to pay to get them fixed, but I take your point.

[Sabcat]

 

 

Never mind the performance, you are clearly unaware of the multitude of problems a poster here has had with her JD3. An engine best avoided judging by her experience.

 

My BD3 on the other hand was a lovely engine, powerful and reliable, but the exhaust was smokey and it didn't really press my buttons as I wanted a real vintage lump. I sold it for £4.5k. There was a Lister CRK (near identical engine) listed several times on ebay for £1k earlier this year. It never sold, still not sure why not. Looked a bargain to me.

 

MtB

 

There's a BD3 in a 62ft boat here, never steered it myself but it was brought up from the Thames by a couple of guys who rate it very highly. I've got the idea from somewhere (I might have made it up in my sleep) that the Lister CRK although based on the same Ford tractor engine makes something like 10 more horse power and is incredibly harsh in comparison to Beta's marinising effort.