Stern line on tiller

[Ray T]

How many boaters have three beautifully worked rope ends of different lengths hanging down over the side and to the rear of the cabin roof, purely for decoration - and not know how they evolved, nor that they originally had an actual use?

 

Here:

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=63231&page=97

 

Posts 1921 to 1925.

Edited June 10, 2014 by Ray T

[rgreg]

 

Actually, you have declared it to be safe under the "don't be bloody daft rule" because you have chosen to continue to do it, and you aren't about to let any objective view of the safety or otherwise sway you.

 

Declaring it to be safe doesn't actually make it safe. It simply means that you have decided to accept the level of risk (and as a private individual, you can do so).

 

You have declared it to be an acceptable (to you) risk.

Not entirely true: It's not that I haven't allowed an objective view of the safety to sway me, just that I haven't seen any evidence that does.

[mayalld]

Not entirely true: It's not that I haven't allowed an objective view of the safety to sway me, just that I haven't seen any evidence that does.

 

So, do you suggest that unless you have actually SEEN evidence that a particular thing can happen, you won't allow that it could happen when assessing risk?

 

Other people have posted their accounts of ropes falling off tillers. Do you not accept that as evidence?

 

I have never seen anybody eaten by a shark, therefore I conclude that swimming in shark-infested water is safe.

[rgreg]

 

So, do you suggest that unless you have actually SEEN evidence that a particular thing can happen, you won't allow that it could happen when assessing risk?

 

Other people have posted their accounts of ropes falling off tillers. Do you not accept that as evidence?

 

I have never seen anybody eaten by a shark, therefore I conclude that swimming in shark-infested water is safe.

No. Everybody's arrangement is different, as I have said several times. However much you continue your line of argument my opinion regarding the safety of mine remains unchanged.

[nb Innisfree]

Always amuses me when when someone states the odds against something happening, quite comfortably relying on those odds to keep safe. Equally you could say what are the chances of winning the lottery? Very, very slim, yet if a couple of tickets were pulled out of the hat each week and one won a fortune and the other a death sentence, I wonder how many tickets would be sold.

[Edders]

 

If you have a boat that is longer than 70 feet, when descending many locks on the BCN you have to remove the tiller bar and turn the rudder to 90 degrees to the boat to avoid catching it on the cill. Sometimes, you have to be efficient about it- the steerer will tend to get onto the boat having shut the top gate behind them, and as the lockwheeler draws the paddles, they have to remove the tiller bar.

Useful info.

 

I have a 71' 6" boat and have not covered very much of the BCN. The boat has a very thin front fender and I lift the rear fenders in locks. So far I haven't had any problems as I always keep the tiller pushed over to one side, but it will go outside the profile of the boat when pushed fully across, so have to pay attention! The actual tiller only goes over by about 80 degrees but the rudder is then within the overall length of the boat.

 

It might be worth getting a slightly shorter tiller to use whilst negotiating the BCN? (A bit of extra exercise!)

 

Does anyone know which locks would cause the boat a problem without removing the tiller?

 

Thanks

 

Tony

[mark99]

Point of order - risk is of probability of hapenning; hazard is the potential to cause harm/damage/unwanted effects - i.e the prop chewing the rope tangling round your foot and snapping it off - or mincing it. Or pehaps just causing a session down the weedhatch if you are lucky.

 

We have identified the hazard - the contention is the probability.

 

Fundamental in any safety assessment like this - remove the hazard (rope in a suitable adequate alternative not potentially dangerous position) then you don't need to worry about the risk.

 

I prefer the naff assessment in this case - does it look naff? yes.

 

The trouble is an attitude Ie - "it won't happen to me" can create other such practices giving a multiple of hazardous operations - each single one maybe not much chance of hapenning - but the aggregation of little probabilities can cause a single of them more likely to happen. In other words - one day your number could be up.

Edited June 10, 2014 by mark99

[FadeToScarlet]

Useful info.

 

I have a 71' 6" boat and have not covered very much of the BCN. The boat has a very thin front fender and I lift the rear fenders in locks. So far I haven't had any problems as I always keep the tiller pushed over to one side, but it will go outside the profile of the boat when pushed fully across, so have to pay attention! The actual tiller only goes over by about 80 degrees but the rudder is then within the overall length of the boat.

 

It might be worth getting a slightly shorter tiller to use whilst negotiating the BCN? (A bit of extra exercise!)

 

Does anyone know which locks would cause the boat a problem without removing the tiller?

 

Thanks

 

Tony

We took the tiller bar off and turned the rudder on Aston and Farmer's Bridge flights when descending on Victoria, Collingwood and Yeoford, all of which are full length. I think we did on the Walsall too. It's probably better to be safe than sorry, though, and take it off in good time at the top of the lock, rather than when the rudder is getting near the cill and risks being lifted out of the Skeg. Titford is meant to be tight, too, and I heard there's one on the flight we can descend backwards but not forwards, being slightly-more-than-full-length at a generous 72'.

 

Hoping to get there this summer and have a play!

 

I suppose the way to check would be to see where the cill marking is when the rudder is straight, and the fore end touching the gates.

 

I think locks with double bottom gates tend to be tighter than those with single, because a single gate needs an extra couple of feet to be able to open fully.

Edited June 10, 2014 by FadeToScarlet

[Edders]

We took the tiller bar off and turned the rudder on Aston and Farmer's Bridge flights when descending on Victoria, Collingwood and Yeoford, all of which are full length. I think we did on the Walsall too. It's probably better to be safe than sorry, though, and take it off in good time at the top of the lock, rather than when the rudder is getting near the cill and risks being lifted out of the Skeg. Titford is meant to be tight, too, and I heard there's one on the flight we can descend backwards but not forwards, being slightly-more-than-full-length at a generous 72'.

 

Hoping to get there this summer and have a play!

 

I suppose the way to check would be to see where the cill marking is when the rudder is straight, and the fore end touching the gates.

 

I think locks with double bottom gates tend to be tighter than those with single, because a single gate needs an extra couple of feet to be able to open fully.

Thanks for the info.

 

I have done Aston, Farmers Bridge and Walsall flights without any problems. Will be extra vigilante at Titford.

 

Hope to do the BCN Challenge next year!

 

Tony

[ditchcrawler]

I will probably get howls of derision from some quarters, so be it.

 

 

 

One solution I came up with is this:

 

 

This keeps the coil neatly off the tiller.

 

Just a length of rope, 2 splices and a snap shackle.

The line is protected from possibly getting caught on lock gates by the fenders.

 

I tried it on a little trip to "The Boat" this afternoon and it caused me no bother.

 

 

Forgetting whether it is right or wrong, I had one on the tiller pin for years and now I don't. In this particular setup it looks to me as if it could easily slide backwards and then down the swan neck dropping the rope right into the prop.

[luctor et emergo]

As for risk assessments, how does one assess the risks involved with scouts volunteering at Lock keeping?

[Tom and Bex]

Thanks for the info.

 

I have done Aston, Farmers Bridge and Walsall flights without any problems. Will be extra vigilante at Titford.

 

Hope to do the BCN Challenge next year!

 

Tony

Titford was the only one I think we had to lift the fenders. I remember Titford was definitely tighter than the other flights. Going down it would more be a problem of not being able to open the bottom gate as being single gates you can get well forward of the cill but have to back up to it to get the gate open.

 

Also I found the cill markers next to useless as if we believed those we didn't stand a chance of fitting in the lock!

[Edders]

 

Also I found the cill markers next to useless as if we believed those we didn't stand a chance of fitting in the lock!

I also have seen numerous "useless" cill markers. I suspect they are placed in a very conservative position to allow a bigger safety margin.

 

Tony

[RLWP]

As for risk assessments, how does one assess the risks involved with scouts volunteering at Lock keeping?

 

Ask the scouts, their scoutmaster will already have done an assessment

 

Richard

[mark99]

 

Ask the scouts, their scoutmaster will already have done an assessment

 

Richard

 

 

Arkela my dear chap.

[FadeToScarlet]

Thinking about this a little further, it surprises me that people aren't quite assertive with their tillers- I certainly am. When winding, or making a tight turn, I find that pumping the tiller- with one arm for small movements, both arms braced against the cabin for harder, or full on lean-back-throw-your-weight-on-it type movements for the full winding in a tight space maneuver.

 

I suppose that, as I have to wind twice every time I move from my mooring to get water, and tend to do out and back trips, there's a lot of winding.

 

I can't see any rope safely staying on the tiller in such conditions.

 

Do other people not do this? Do you all tend to be more gentle with the tiller?

[RLWP]

I'm not convinced pumping the tiller is anything other than a left over from working buttys

 

I suppose I don't believe it is more effective than letting a good flow pattern build up along the rudder

 

So there!

 

Richard

[FadeToScarlet]

I'm not convinced pumping the tiller is anything other than a left over from working buttys

 

I suppose I don't believe it is more effective than letting a good flow pattern build up along the rudder

 

So there!

 

Richard

 

An interesting question indeed, and one I shall put about at Braunston amongst those who have been steering full length boats for longer than I've been alive, to see if there's a consensus!

[RLWP]

There will be, they all pump the tiller

 

Richard

[MtB]

I'm not convinced pumping the tiller is anything other than a left over from working buttys

 

I suppose I don't believe it is more effective than letting a good flow pattern build up along the rudder

 

So there!

 

Richard

 

 

I've always thought that too. In fact it seems to me that it would be less effective than maintaining a good flow over the rudder.

 

Trouble is there is no way to easily compare. Maybe some controlled experiments need to be set up!

 

MtB

[Timleech]

I'm not convinced pumping the tiller is anything other than a left over from working buttys

 

I suppose I don't believe it is more effective than letting a good flow pattern build up along the rudder

 

So there!

 

Richard

 

You let the flow pattern build up, then push the rudder/tiller to an angle greater that the theoreticists tell you will work - until the flow breaks down, then you start again. It's not simple 'pumping', just a little bit more subtle than that.

 

Tim

[mayalld]

No. Everybody's arrangement is different, as I have said several times. However much you continue your line of argument my opinion regarding the safety of mine remains unchanged.

The thing that you miss is that your tiller is as subject to ordinary physics as mine.

 

The ways in which it could go wrong apply as do the chances of it happening.

 

It isn't about my opinion or your opinion. The risk of it going wrong and how bad it will be if it does is an objective measure rather than an opinion.

 

Physics and a history of it happening to other people says so.

 

Your arrangement doesn't become safe because you declare it to be safe. Your declaration that it is safe is just you saying that you accept the risk.

[mark99]

I'm not convinced pumping the tiller is anything other than a left over from working buttys

 

I suppose I don't believe it is more effective than letting a good flow pattern build up along the rudder

 

So there!

 

Richard

 

I think when you slam over a rudder you get additional turn thrust - I know water has no shear resistance however fast acceleration of the rudder is like moving the boat rudder against a hard wall (using the interia of the mass of water before it shears and or flows/moves).

 

You get an extra burst of turn by wagging the rudder fast if you time it right. The boat moves in rotation in reaction against the wall of water.

 

Edited some bad terminology

Edited June 10, 2014 by mark99

[FadeToScarlet]

 

 

I've always thought that too. In fact it seems to me that it would be less effective than maintaining a good flow over the rudder.

 

Trouble is there is no way to easily compare. Maybe some controlled experiments need to be set up!

 

MtB

 

I'm sure Alan would lend Sickle for the occasion- I'm thinking doughnuts in the marina entrance during the Braunston parade?

[Keeping Up]

 

You let the flow pattern build up, then push the rudder/tiller to an angle greater that the theoreticists tell you will work - until the flow breaks down, then you start again. It's not simple 'pumping', just a little bit more subtle than that.

 

Tim

 

Exactly !!!