10 reason's I'm a fool for considering having my boat built new...

[Marjorie]

Ready? GO!

 

 

A bit of additional information to get the juices flowing:

 

• I have lived on a boat, but not a narrowboat
• I'd really like to use some of my existing furniture (modified to fit) to incorporate into my narrowboat, which is mostly the reason I am thinking of having one built (is that ridiculous?)
• Money is an object, but not a massive one - my current boat will sell for the price of a very high spec narrowboat, but the aim of the game is to spend no more than 3/4 (1/2 if possible) and put the rest under the mattress

Also, while we're on. Did you see Shackleton at Crick? She had a 24v system rather than 12v (except for the starter battery). Gary, the builderman, said he doesn't understand why everyone doesn't have 24v. So, why doesn't everyone have 24v?

[Alan de Enfield]

My guess :

 

There is a large market (Caravans, camping, caravettes/camper vans, boats and cars) for 12 volt 'things' from lightbulbs to fridges,

Many TVs (even domestic ones are stepped down from 220v to 12v) operate on 12v

 

The market for 24 volt is much smaller (basically trucks with overnight cabs) so the 24v parts are much more expensive and much harder to find.

 

Go into your local chandlery and try and get a 24v bulb, TV or toilet that that flushes with 24v

NB - some boats are 24v

[MtB]

1) You don't get to see what you've bought until after you've parted with your money

2) You don't get to see what you've bought until after you've parted with your money

3) You don't get to see what you've bought until after you've parted with your money

4) You don't get to see what you've bought until after you've parted with your money

5) You don't get to see what you've bought until after you've parted with your money

6) You don't get to see what you've bought until after you've parted with your money

7) You don't get to see what you've bought until after you've parted with your money

8) You don't get to see what you've bought until after you've parted with your money

9) You don't get to see what you've bought until after you've parted with your money

10) You don't get to see what you've bought until after you've parted with your money

 

This assumes your builder doesn't go bust prior to delivery, in which case you may never get to see it even though you'll have parted with most of your money.

 

MtB

[Marjorie]

My guess :

 

There is a large market (Caravans, camping, caravettes/camper vans, boats and cars) for 12 volt 'things' from lightbulbs to fridges,

Many TVs (even domestic ones are stepped down from 220v to 12v) operate on 12v

 

The market for 24 volt is much smaller (basically trucks with overnight cabs) so the 24v parts are much more expensive and much harder to find.

 

Go into your local chandlery and try and get a 24v bulb, TV or toilet that that flushes with 24v

 

Aren't most things 12/24v (TVs and fridges I have seen, didn't even think abotu lightbulbs)? Tbh, Shackleton was so fancy schmancy she has a 240v Smeg fridge (which is most people's entire budget gone right there, isn't it).

 

Thanks for holding back on listing reasons to tell me I'm an idiot btw (a nice gentle start to build my confidence).

1) You don't get to see what you've bought until after you've parted with your money

2) You don't get to see what you've bought until after you've parted with your money

3) You don't get to see what you've bought until after you've parted with your money

4) You don't get to see what you've bought until after you've parted with your money

5) You don't get to see what you've bought until after you've parted with your money

6) You don't get to see what you've bought until after you've parted with your money

7) You don't get to see what you've bought until after you've parted with your money

8) You don't get to see what you've bought until after you've parted with your money

9) You don't get to see what you've bought until after you've parted with your money

10) You don't get to see what you've bought until after you've parted with your money

 

This assumes your builder doesn't go bust prior to delivery, in which case you may never get to see it even though you'll have parted with most of your money.

 

MtB

 

I wasn't expecting you to give me all 10 at once, but thanks

 

Do you still think that even if you could be there periodically throughout the build?

Edited June 3, 2014 by Marjorie

[Paul C]

If you're starting from scratch, 24V items are often just as easily available and similar price to 12V items. And for those which aren't, running a 24V-12V converter won't be that great a hassle (though will cost). I too am surprised its not seen more often on narrowboats.

[MtB]

 

Aren't most things 12/24v (TVs and fridges I have seen, didn't even think abotu lightbulbs)? Tbh, Shackleton was so fancy schmancy she has a 240v Smeg fridge (which is most people's entire budget gone right there, isn't it).

 

Thanks for holding back on listing reasons to tell me I'm an idiot btw (a nice gentle start to build my confidence).

 

You're welcome! Always polite to newcomers, moi

 

 

 

 

Do you still think that even if you could be there periodically throughout the build?

 

Yes definitely. Imagine this scenario....

 

You've pqaid say 10% to grab your build slot. You go there to see the baseplate being laid out but the guys say 'come back next week, we're a bit behind'. So you go back next week and they say, 'last customer hasn't paid, can you advance us a further £2k as the steel suppliers won't send your baseplate steel. So, thinking you've already bunged them say £8k, why not? It gets your build started.

 

They lay the baseplate. And stop. They ask for more money. You give it to them, chasing your £10k. They build up the hull and it all looks good. Well quite good anyway. You question the ripples in the cabin sides. They say they haven't finished, they'll be gone when they've finished the build. You accept what they say.

 

You go back again. No engine. They ask you for more money to get it, more than the stage payments agreed. You pay it, chasing your £20k.

 

The interior fit stops. They ask for more money. You pay it, chasing your £40k. You mention the ripples in the cabin sides again. The work so far is looking a bit unsatisfactory in so many little ways, but nothing you can do about it now. You really are fully committed.

 

Next time you visit to see your build, the place is all locked up and no answer when you phone them.

 

Now what?

 

This sort of thing happens. Quite unusual but do you want to take the risk?

 

MtB

[The Bagdad Boatman (waits)]

Do you know what a good vertical weld should look like? Have you seen a boat that you would like and asked about the builder? Are they still in buisness? Go and see them building. Look for things like drilling holes in the side of the cabin to screw window frames and timber supports for the lining. I was shocked to see that at one reputable builder. Another builder just butted the cabin sides together and used body filler which allowed a lovely crack to show after a few months.

Tayberg at Brighouse builds nice boats as does Davis at Saul on the G&S. What length and width do you want? if wide then 13ft.6inch is good otherwise 6ft.10inch. 58ft will do all the system but 70ft will give you more space. 45ft will enable you the turn most anywhere. If you are doing stage payments then in exchange for your money you need proof of ownership of an identified lump of steel or fabrication.

[Marjorie]

Do you know what a good vertical weld should look like? Have you seen a boat that you would like and asked about the builder? Are they still in buisness? Go and see them building. Look for things like drilling holes in the side of the cabin to screw window frames and timber supports for the lining. I was shocked to see that at one reputable builder. Another builder just butted the cabin sides together and used body filler which allowed a lovely crack to show after a few months.

Tayberg at Brighouse builds nice boats as does Davis at Saul on the G&S. What length and width do you want? if wide then 13ft.6inch is good otherwise 6ft.10inch. 58ft will do all the system but 70ft will give you more space. 45ft will enable you the turn most anywhere. If you are doing stage payments then in exchange for your money you need proof of ownership of an identified lump of steel or fabrication.

 

Agreed, research is key - and I don't quite know what I (think) I want yet, so haven't started doing any.

 

I do know what a good vertical weld looks like though (which I'm quite proud of, so I thought I'd just take the opportunity to show off). I am surrounded by people who work on and build boats (but not narrow ones) on the marina I live in - you can learn a lot by asking questions and sounding interested...

 

MtB, you're scaring me. Thank you (probably good for me so I don't start thinking I know everything and it will all be a breeze).

[MtB]

Do you know what a good vertical weld should look like? Have you seen a boat that you would like and asked about the builder? Are they still in buisness? Go and see them building. Look for things like drilling holes in the side of the cabin to screw window frames and timber supports for the lining. I was shocked to see that at one reputable builder. Another builder just butted the cabin sides together and used body filler which allowed a lovely crack to show after a few months.

Tayberg at Brighouse builds nice boats as does Davis at Saul on the G&S. What length and width do you want? if wide then 13ft.6inch is good otherwise 6ft.10inch. 58ft will do all the system but 70ft will give you more space. 45ft will enable you the turn most anywhere. If you are doing stage payments then in exchange for your money you need proof of ownership of an identified lump of steel or fabrication.

 

 

All good points. Plus, assuming it gets to completion and you pay the final amount and take delivery, you still haven't used it. There could easily be a snagging list of problems a mile long, which they may or may not deal with for you. The good builders won't leave you with much of a snagging list in the fist place and will sort out the niggles without quibbling. The less good builders, frankly, won't.

 

Far better to by a used boat in my opinion, that you can see, you can have surveyed, and has had all the wrinkles ironed out.

 

MtB

[OldGoat]

If you're starting from scratch, 24V items are often just as easily available and similar price to 12V items. And for those which aren't, running a 24V-12V converter won't be that great a hassle (though will cost). I too am surprised its not seen more often on narrowboats.

 

 

Wot he said above...

 

Several good ? reasons for having 24v systems(s):-

 

• Wiring can be smaller size - not hugely important for low current devices, but makes a helluva difference for inverters and battery chargers.
• 24V alternators are designed for heavier duties that the 'standard' 12 volt variety. You'll get 1.5 times the power output for a given alternator physical size with a 24V unit. I have a Leece Neville 24V alternator rated at 145 amps in a case that the 12V equivalent would be 100 amps. That's nearly 3 times the power output.
• 24V equipment tends to be more robust than the 12v equivalent.

 

You can always take a battery tap for items which have to be 12V. If there are several then you can balance the load by running some at "negative to +12v tap", and others at "12v tap to battery +".

 

With folks requiring more and more land based domestic facilities onboard nowadays, 24V is the sensible way to go for a new build.

[MtB]

MtB, you're scaring me. Thank you (probably good for me so I don't start thinking I know everything and it will all be a breeze).

 

That's the point. Far better to understand how things can go wrong. That way you can decide if you are comfortable with the risk and devise ways to minimise it. There have been plenty of threads on here documenting people's disaster builds over the years. Have a search.

 

MtB

[Shockabilly]

Frankly I know bugger all about the ups and downs of a new build, however we bought our NB from a lovely couple who sadly had to sell their boat virtually 'as new', with a mere 40 hours on the clock due to a seismic change in personal circumstances; the couple were experienced boaters & before having their dream boat built did lots & lots & lots & even more lots of research, leg work and visits etc and eventually settled on a Mike Christian Hull fitted out by Phil Norton who trades under the name of Straight & Narrow Boat Services at Crick.

 

I stress at this point this is not an advert for Phil, however, the couple we purchased from said that their experiences of a 'new build', had been painless and enjoyable but had only been so due to their thorough prior extensive and exhaustive research about who to hand their hard earned brass over to; Phil is a small (but always busy) one man band who listened to them, only asked for money when it was needed, allowed access whenever they wished to visit and worked 'with them' throughout the build; the couple also intend to return to boating in the future and would not hesitate to have another 'new build' by Straight & Narrow.

 

To reiterate, I know bugger all about the topic but I'm still in touch with the genuinely lovely couple we bought our NB from and their experiences suggest that having a boat built needs lots of planning, research, deliberation, prodding, poking and straight talking before finally hacking into your savings.

 

We love our NB and have no regrets whatsoever in buying 'virtually new', luckily the vendors taste was much the same as ours and apart from a couple of very minor teething problems everything has been fine and Phil the builder has been more than happy to spend time with us and offer advice, additionally, those in the know keep telling my wife and I that we have a lovely boat built by a good, sound and trustworthy builder and having had a wander around the boats on display at Crick Show we didn't see any that we would swap ours for.

[Woodstock]

A couple of reasons prevent me buying new:-

 

The money- I dont want to spend over £100k on a boat- My next boat will be in the 40K margin. We aren't live aboards though and unlikely to be in the next couple of years. I dont want to be in a situation of having to sell my house to fund a brand new boat and then in the future not having a place on land to return to- for instance if I get ill or less agile.

 

Depreciation (hate it on cars let alone boats)

 

I'm not an expert- I've learnt and continue to learn what I like and what I need. We deliberately started with a smaller, older, cheaper boat with the intention of keeping it a few years as a learning curve and then at the right time progress to a newer and maybe larger boat with a spec meeting most of our needs.

I'm not competetnt to know if the builder is doing a good job or telling me a tale

 

When I see something I want- I'll want it then- I know I would be terribly impatient waiting for a boat to be built

 

There are plenty of second hand boats and I'm sure one that will fulfill most of my needs will be out there when we come to change boats and if there were any structural issues, one would hope they've been identified by then- plus if they haven't:- as long as we find them in the survey, it isnt my problem- I can easily walk away.

If you find that on a new build- it could be a battle of lawyers

 

Everyone has different needs and beliefs and this is the place to get feedback on builders and perhaps opportunities to see different designs and layouts- good luck in deciding, you're asking questions in the right place.

[Paul's Nulife4-2]

 

You're welcome! Always polite to newcomers, moi

,,,Snip,,,

 

MtB

Don't you start !.

Edited June 3, 2014 by Paul's Nulife4-2

[RichardH]

The curve of a brand new boat price to its resale value in say 3 years is dramatic to say the least. Reasons:

 

- people who want a new boat do it because they can tailor make it to their whims and fancies - sadly these are not the same whims and fancies for the rest of the world

- said new boat which was 100k new will not appeal to those with say 80k to spend as they can still buy a new boat elsewhere

- there is a huge canyon (IMHO) between those with new boat money and the rest of the market (and frankly if someone tells me the reason they can offer scrap value is because it is a 'buyers market' I will scream)

 

Would I buy a brand new boat?

 

No.

 

Do I wish however I had sold Isabel the tug as a brand new boat rather than a 3 year old quality nearly new boat

 

Yes.

[Neil2]

I think if you have enough experience to know exactly what you want there's something to be said for it, but most of the people I've met who have had a bespoke boat built don't fall into that category. I've even met a few who have never even been on a narrowboat before. That's getting precious close to insanity because there's no need to take such risks.

 

You have enough money to buy a decent boat so buy one that you know for a fact will resell in a year or two with minimal loss - the way the economy is you might even make money on it.

 

Even a year on the cut will reveal all sorts of things about narrowboat life that you can't imagine. Then you can commission your new boat with total confidence.

 

An example is this desire to squeeze your existing furniture into a space is wasn't designed for. It's only by living on a NB you will realise just how precious every square inch is.

 

PS are we up to ten yet?

Edited June 3, 2014 by Neil2

[Marjorie]

I think if you have enough experience to know exactly what you want there's something to be said for it, but most of the people I've met who have had a bespoke boat built don't fall into that category. I've even met a few who have never even been on a narrowboat before. That's getting precious close to insanity because there's no need to take such risks.

 

You have enough money to buy a decent boat so buy one that you know for a fact will resell in a year or two with minimal loss - the way the economy is you might even make money on it.

 

Even a year on the cut will reveal all sorts of things about narrowboat life that you can't imagine. Then you can commission your new boat with total confidence.

 

An example is this desire to squeeze your existing furniture into a space is wasn't designed for. It's only by living on a NB you will realise just how precious every square inch is.

 

PS are we up to ten yet?

 

No squeezing, just repurposing things that will fit into the space See welsh dresser used here, for example: http://narrowboats.apolloduck.co.uk/image.phtml?id=349384ℑ=3

 

I thought we'd get to 10 a lot faster, and it would all be a lot more sarcastic to be honest...

Edited June 3, 2014 by Marjorie

[Ally]

I'm going to be slightly devils advocate here. MtB's comments are somewhat single sided, and assume the worst. Whilst I fully understand where he's coming from, and there are certainly builders out there who could seriously mess you up, there are also some honest, on time, upfront builders.

I can't be accused of trying to put ourselves forward as your ideal builder, as we have just closed our business, for good, non financial reasons.

A new build...with the right builder...gives you choice, flexibility of style and design, input during the build. Get an independent surveyor of repute to oversee at intervals, have lots of regular visits, arranged and ad hoc, pay in installments, not too much at a time, talk to previous customers out of the builders ear shot.

 

If you are wanting something different that can't be bought off the peg, it may be the way to go.

The boiat will lose some money to start with, but a good build by a good builder will hold a better price long term.

 

Whatever you do, all the best!

[matty40s]

Echoing Ally - but also thinking about listening to those boat builders when you have fancy ideas.....

 

Don't forget, always think about potential resale eventually. There is a boat currently for sale at Great Haywood, it has been on sale for 3 years now, formerly with ABNB, then with RugbyBoats at two different sites, and now, at GH.

It is a good shell, and a respected fitter-outer has done the job with some lovely wood .

However, the owners ideas were far too idealised about what they specifically wanted, and probably ignored advice from all and sundry.

It has two very narrow cot-beds at the rear with high sides and central walkway, no real way of changing without ruining the lovely woodwork at a large cost, and no solid fuel stove - no real obvious place in the cabin for one without ruining the space or fine woodworking.

The boat was also for sale at a very high price(owners valuation) for a boat of the age, with a quite standard paint job - poorly touched up. The price reduced and reduced down to £50k - now back at £65k.

http://greathaywoodboatsales.co.uk/images/pdf_files/PatienceBrochureMainPage.pdf

[Marjorie]

Echoing Ally - but also thinking about listening to those boat builders when you have fancy ideas.....

 

Don't forget, always think about potential resale eventually.

 

I take the point about resale; I also think life is for living, and if having a fantastic 5 years, or decade, or two decades costs me a bit when it comes to resale, then within reason, I can live with that - I'm not really proposing anything crazy (I don't think - I have yet to see the look on a builder's face when I tell them what I'm thinking ), I just don't really want to live somewhere that feels like it belongs to someone else (I have made that mistake before, thinking it didn't matter to me, but it turns out it does).

 

Re. listening to boat builders - I think when you find the right one, you listen to each other. I have a friend who is working with a builder to build his boat now (he's converting a lighter, so it's not much like a narrowboat build I suppose). They've become a bit like a married couple - lots of bickering, and to-ing and fro-ing until they both reach something they're happy with. I wouldn't necessarily go that far (I'm less of a navel gazer than this friend is, so it just wouldn't happen!), but I like that they can talk to each other, and that they both quite clearly want this boat to be the best it can be. There must be some narrowboat builders out there who are like that too.

 

I can't be accused of trying to put ourselves forward as your ideal builder, as we have just closed our business, for good, non financial reasons.

 

I hope it was because you're on to bigger (or maybe smaller) and better things, ad not because something horrid happened

[Fintan]

Is it difficult to add 240v to a 12v boat?

I'm going to need a landline, but this is seriously curtailing the number of potential boats to consider (though that could, in some ways, be considered a good thing) - how difficult/costly would it be to, say, have a couple of 240v sockets and wiring installed?

[Marjorie]

You need an inverter. You can get little ones that you plug into a 12v socket, and the little faries inside turn it into 240v - like this, I think, although I'm not entirely sure: http://www.cybermarket.co.uk/shop/power-supplies/inverters/modified-pure-sine-wave-inverters/300w-dc-230vac-soft-start-inverter-993401.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=base&utm_campaign=H7Media&gclid=CMqw-K363b4CFSrpwgodZgoAyQ

 

Or you could put an inverter in your engine room and then have your wiring modified (if it's accessible) to put 240v wall sockets in.

 

Either way, inverting means loosing lots along the way (so be mindful of your batteries).

 

DISCLAIMER: Wait until one of the proper narrowboaters replies to be sure - I'm really just trying out the things I think I've learnt on you, so might well be talking utter sh*te

Edited June 3, 2014 by Marjorie

[Ally]

 

 

 

I hope it was because you're on to bigger (or maybe smaller) and better things, ad not because something horrid happened

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=65028&hl=beacon

That will explain why.

There are other builders out there who will work with you, as we would have done, choose carefully and research lots!

Edited June 3, 2014 by Ally

[Staarek]

Ready? GO!

 

 

A bit of additional information to get the juices flowing:

 

• I have lived on a boat, but not a narrowboat
• I'd really like to use some of my existing furniture (modified to fit) to incorporate into my narrowboat, which is mostly the reason I am thinking of having one built (is that ridiculous?)
• Money is an object, but not a massive one - my current boat will sell for the price of a very high spec narrowboat, but the aim of the game is to spend no more than 3/4 (1/2 if possible) and put the rest under the mattress

Also, while we're on. Did you see Shackleton at Crick? She had a 24v system rather than 12v (except for the starter battery). Gary, the builderman, said he doesn't understand why everyone doesn't have 24v. So, why doesn't everyone have 24v?

 

I don't think you are fool at all, if you want the boat to be exactly the way you like, you will have to have it build. It's not an easy process, but it's pretty much the only way. I wonder how many people that advise you against having the boat built have actually had one built?

[Marjorie]

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=65028&hl=beacon

That will explain why.

 

 

Argh, my goodness, how horrible. I have to say, it's often been the nastiest bits of my life that have led to the best ones though... good luck with the next thing, and thank you for the very sound, and very positive advice