Body found in Harecastle Tunnel

[Guest]

Ok I give in.

 

If I fall off the back of my boat, it's CRT's fault, obviously.

 

Silly me for thinking it might have been mine.

 

 

 

MtB

That is not what I am saying in each and every case, and you didn't ask about CRT you asked about the highways agency.

 

There will be occasions where potentially both of them can be held responsible. I don't believe falling off the back of your boat (or motorbike) is such an occasion.

[magpie patrick]

I'm probably going to get slated for this, so I will start by saying how tragic Mr Holgate's death is and adding the I can't really imagine how bereft his wife must feel

 

There's a but - one of the pictures in the Daily Mail coverage purports to show Mr Holgate sitting on a seat right at the back of the counter, in the tiller arc, with his feet on a rope. If you are going to be rigorous about safety there are so many things wrong there: Other boaters do this too.

 

Whenever taff rail seats or care with ropes is discussed on here, a few people dismiss the concerns regarding the hazard created. Before everyone has to wear a life jacket in the tunnel, how about we all take our safety seriously in details like this.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2711749/Wife-screamed-hours-help-husband-hit-head-disappeared-water-pitch-black-canal-tunnel.html

[Guest]

Some of the comments following that Daily Mail article are utterly idiotic......

[Leo No2]

I'm probably going to get slated for this, so I will start by saying how tragic Mr Holgate's death is and adding the I can't really imagine how bereft his wife must feel

 

There's a but - one of the pictures in the Daily Mail coverage purports to show Mr Holgate sitting on a seat right at the back of the counter, in the tiller arc, with his feet on a rope. If you are going to be rigorous about safety there are so many things wrong there: Other boaters do this too.

 

Whenever taff rail seats or care with ropes is discussed on here, a few people dismiss the concerns regarding the hazard created. Before everyone has to wear a life jacket in the tunnel, how about we all take our safety seriously in details like this.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2711749/Wife-screamed-hours-help-husband-hit-head-disappeared-water-pitch-black-canal-tunnel.html

Well Patrick - I'll give you a greenie for that. As someone who has held an RYA inland waterways instructor's ticket (now lapsed) it is one of the things I have always been 'hot' on. Don't stand or sit anywhere within the arc of the tiller; the force with which the tiller arm can push is huge - sorry not a physicist so can't suggest the force applied BUT I will never allow anyone to stand on the back of any boat with me if they stand within the arc of the tiller arm. And don't start me on the tractor seats and captain's perches (I think that's what they are called). At all times when underway stand (or sit) outside the arc of the tiller arm.

[Guest]

Well Patrick - I'll give you a greenie for that. As someone who has held an RYA inland waterways instructor's ticket (now lapsed) it is one of the things I have always been 'hot' on. Don't stand or sit anywhere within the arc of the tiller; the force with which the tiller arm can push is huge - sorry not a physicist so can't suggest the force applied BUT I will never allow anyone to stand on the back of any boat with me if they stand within the arc of the tiller arm. And don't start me on the tractor seats and captain's perches (I think that's what they are called). At all times when underway stand (or sit) outside the arc of the tiller arm.

It can be perfectly safe to sit on Taff/tractor seats when underway, and stand in the arc of the tiller.

 

Going through a tunnel wouldn't be one of them though, not that we know Mr. Holgate was at the time of the incident of course.

[Leo No2]

It can be perfectly safe to sit on Taff/tractor seats when underway, and stand in the arc of the tiller.

Going through a tunnel wouldn't be one of them though, not that we know Mr. Holgate was at the time of the incident of course.

I genuinely don't understand how it can be safe - I accept that it happens all the time and most of the people who do site/stand within the arc of the tiller don't get injured but I still feel it is unsafe. My view is that all it needs is something to hit the rudder and the force will turn the rudder and the only movable object is the person who is steering. I'd be really interested to understand how it can be made to be safe.

[Guest]

I genuinely don't understand how it can be safe - I accept that it happens all the time and most of the people who do site/stand within the arc of the tiller don't get injured but I still feel it is unsafe. My view is that all it needs is something to hit the rudder and the force will turn the rudder and the only movable object is the person who is steering. I'd be really interested to understand how it can be made to be safe.

I wouldn't do it on most of the system, but on the deep straight parts of the northern system I don't fret.

[Victor Vectis]

How about reinforcing one of the basic rules of tunnel passages: stay within the profile of the boat.

Then how do you see where you are going?

[Guest]

Then how do you see where you are going?

Periscope?...

[adam1uk]

I wouldn't do it on most of the system, but on the deep straight parts of the northern system I don't fret.

 

So a log or something couldn't hit your rudder on a deep straight waterway?

[Paul C]

Then how do you see where you are going?

 

That, I'll leave up to you.

 

Personally, if a tunnel is that low that sticking my head up above the profile of the boat endangers my continued presence on the boat, and life itself, I'll let the boat bang rather than my head bang onto masonry/rockwork. If the tunnel is clearly taller than the boat then obviously you can put your head up to get a decent view; if it isn't, then you can't.

[Guest]

So a log or something couldn't hit your rudder on a deep straight waterway?

I've done this discussion too many times, and i have done my risk assessment.

 

I like Lilly's.... Should my assessment be flawed.

[Guest]

That, I'll leave up to you.

 

Personally, if a tunnel is that low that sticking my head up above the profile of the boat endangers my continued presence on the boat, and life itself, I'll let the boat bang rather than my head bang onto masonry/rockwork. If the tunnel is clearly taller than the boat then obviously you can put your head up to get a decent view; if it isn't, then you can't.

However that is not what you said is it?

 

What you said was keep inside the boat profile when passing through tunnels, this indicated any tunnel, this being clearly impossible if you want to see where you are going.

[MHS]

Surely going straight forwards in a canal, any debris hitting the rudder would only give it a glancing blow and be unlikely to cause it to swing much?

 

Going astern, well that's a totally different matter.

[Guest]

Surely going straight forwards in a canal, any debris hitting the rudder would only give it a glancing blow and be unlikely to cause it to swing much?

Going astern, well that's a totally different matter.

The doom mongers theorise about stuff getting trapped between your prop and rudder and the tiller moving suddenly sweeping you into the canal....

[richardf]

Wearing of lifejackets to be made compulsory.

All tunnels to be floodlit throughout.

All tunnels to be pumped to have a flow that would wash a faller out.

All water in tunnels to be heated to prevent fallers dying of hypothermia.

All pubs to be closed and all areas within 50 yards of a canal to be alcohol-free areas by law.

Only one boat permitted in any one tunnel at any time.

A crew count to be taken before and after each passage.

Oh and a risk assessment to be signed for.

That should do it.

I wonder what the poor man's widow would make of this post. Hopefully she won't read it

[Paul C]

However that is not what you said is it?

 

What you said was keep inside the boat profile when passing through tunnels, this indicated any tunnel, this being clearly impossible if you want to see where you are going.

 

Its not what I said previously, because the guy was being somewhat literal and wanted an explanation of something which, if he'd applied a bit of common sense, would have been obvious to him. If I'd written out in detail the thought processes relating to the specifics of driving in a tunnel, it would have ended up being quite a number of words/paragraphs. And thus the weight of its meaning lost in the process. So I didn't write it out in detail, I wrote a succinct version. This relied upon a bit of common sense to go hand-in-hand with it, rather than being taken quite so literally. Apologies if its also caught you out.

[David Mack]

It took 2 hours for help to arrive, in a manned tunnel. How much longer if it had happened at Blisworth, Braunston, Netherton etc. where there are no staff anywhere near? Staff to count in and out at every long tunnel is impractical. Providing mobile phone comms in tunnels is technically feasible,and no doubt costly, but it would still take time to summon help. You can drown or die of hypothermia within minutes.

 

The only sensible response is provision of advice, including suggesting wearing of life jackets.

 

If the wife or son had stayed at the back of the boat, they would have been in a much better position to respond at the time of the incident.

 

And as far as the reliabilty of press reports goes, does the Daily Mail expect us to believe that the chap was aged 14 and his (then future) wife aged 11 when their son was born?

[Victor Vectis]

 

That, I'll leave up to you.

 

Personally, if a tunnel is that low that sticking my head up above the profile of the boat endangers my continued presence on the boat, and life itself, I'll let the boat bang rather than my head bang onto masonry/rockwork. If the tunnel is clearly taller than the boat then obviously you can put your head up to get a decent view; if it isn't, then you can't.

I'm 6ft plus tall.

 

The only tunnels where I have had to step down into the engine room due to low height are Froghall and the low bit of Gosty.

 

I don't know if it's due to my having worked at the pit but I'm generally aware of headroom and where to duck.

[Guest]

Its not what I said previously, because the guy was being somewhat literal and wanted an explanation of something which, if he'd applied a bit of common sense, would have been obvious to him. If I'd written out in detail the thought processes relating to the specifics of driving in a tunnel, it would have ended up being quite a number of words/paragraphs. And thus the weight of its meaning lost in the process. So I didn't write it out in detail, I wrote a succinct version. This relied upon a bit of common sense to go hand-in-hand with it, rather than being taken quite so literally. Apologies if its also caught you out.

However by writing a succinct version you completely altered what you wanted to say.....

 

I wasn't 'caught out' as you put it I simply read and interpreted what you posted.

[Victor Vectis]

The last time I went through Harecastle I was tied up, waiting at the south end, when I thought I heard a boat horn. "Isn't that the distress signal?" I said to myself.

 

Then the tunnel keeper dashed out of his hut, crossed the bridge, opened the doors and a boat came out. As it came past the bloke on the back said "I thought they'd forgotten about me!"

[system 4-50]

I wonder what the poor man's widow would make of this post. Hopefully she won't read it

I wish we could put this one permanently to bed.

If a tragedy occurs and the person affected is standing next to me is directly affected, I will be sympathetic & very considered in my comments to them.

If the person affected is 10,000 miles away in the Australian Outback, the I will feel free to make fun of the whole thing if I (strangely) so choose.

If the person affected is at some point in between the two the I will choose an in-between position and comment accordingly. I will not always get the balance exactly right. Thats life.

Mostly it behoves people to avoid the media if they have a tragedy.

In this case I think we can comment freely.

[magnetman]

I just can't understand how you fall off a boat while steering it, unless you are removing a chimney or something to stop it getting knocked off but surely you bring the boat to a complete halt before doing anything like that??

 

The idea of just falling off the back is strange but I have not been through that tunnel so I might be missing something. I'd have thought it would be quite common unless it is actually quite difficult

 

[MtB]

I just can't understand how you fall off a boat while steering it, unless you are removing a chimney or something to stop it getting knocked off but surely you bring the boat to a complete halt before doing anything like that??

 

The idea of just falling off the back is strange but I have not been through that tunnel so I might be missing something. I'd have thought it would be quite common unless it is actually quite difficult

 

 

Have you clicked on the daily mail link and seen the photo of this chap sitting on his high-up 'captains perch' welded to the very back edge of the boat?

 

Here's the link.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2711749/Wife-screamed-hours-help-husband-hit-head-disappeared-water-pitch-black-canal-tunnel.html

 

 

Imagine going through Harecastle sitting on that perch. Chances of hitting your head on the roof in the dark as you enter the low section are pretty high in my opinion. And sitting on that perch you're going to fall off backwards, in my opinion.

 

 

MtB

[magnetman]

OK the "towing-dolly" chair.

 

Bloody hell. I'd be in the hatches myself !!! Horribly dangerous setup I see the problem now. Maybe these contraptions should be banned by the BSS or CRT could issue advisories about them being stupid.