Alan de Enfield Posted May 15, 2014 Report Share Posted May 15, 2014 International ColRegs Sound Signals I was under the impression that 'two-hoots' signalled turning to Port, however it appears that according to Louise Moore of the Roving Canal Traders Association (in asking please give extra consideration for boats towing) it means : "If you hear two blasts of a horn when a boat is coming towards you they are trying to warn you of something. Slow down and give yourself time to assess the situation" If organisations are going to make up their own signalling system its no wonder that 'accidents will happen'. Shouldnt the RCTA use the same signals as the rest of the world ie "Towing a Butty and approaching a bridge hole" :- "I am unable to manoeuvre" = Long Short Short 'blast' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jelunga Posted May 15, 2014 Report Share Posted May 15, 2014 International ColRegs Sound Signals I was under the impression that 'two-hoots' signalled turning to Port, however it appears that according to Louise Moore of the Roving Canal Traders Association (in asking please give extra consideration for boats towing) it means : "If you hear two blasts of a horn when a boat is coming towards you they are trying to warn you of something. Slow down and give yourself time to assess the situation" If organisations are going to make up their own signalling system its no wonder that 'accidents will happen'. Shouldnt the RCTA use the same signals as the rest of the world ie "Towing a Butty and approaching a bridge hole" :- "I am unable to manoeuvre" = Long Short Short 'blast' We akways had two black balls ready to hoist for another engine failure. But tossing about in the Med with a force 7 blowing and no engine is no fun I can assure you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scholar Gypsy Posted May 16, 2014 Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 International ColRegs Sound Signals I was under the impression that 'two-hoots' signalled turning to Port, however it appears that according to Louise Moore of the Roving Canal Traders Association (in asking please give extra consideration for boats towing) it means : "If you hear two blasts of a horn when a boat is coming towards you they are trying to warn you of something. Slow down and give yourself time to assess the situation" If organisations are going to make up their own signalling system its no wonder that 'accidents will happen'. Shouldnt the RCTA use the same signals as the rest of the world ie "Towing a Butty and approaching a bridge hole" :- "I am unable to manoeuvre" = Long Short Short 'blast' I would agree with the general point you make. It is I think worth noting (and to add to the confusion) that there are local variations to sound signals. The document you posted is I think from the BW/C&RT Thames tideway guidance, and a few of the signals there are not in COLREGs themselves (4+1, 4+2, and long+2 shorts). See the local PLA byelaws here. From the thread on navigation lights on a pair of narrow boats, this appears to be the relevant byelaw for canals? (rule 12). Rule 12(3)© could cover the situation described, though I would have to say that the percentage of steerers who would know what such a sound signal meant would be quite low. I wonder if a single long blast might be best? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul C Posted May 16, 2014 Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 Yeah if another boat made 2 blasts of the horn while approaching me, I'd assume they wanted to pass on the wrong side. Do you have a link to where the RCTA said this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pykebird Posted May 16, 2014 Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 I gave up using my horn on approaching blind bridges as NO One took any notice! One boat who actually hit me square on whilst I was reversing, insisted it was my fault as she thought I was sounding to let her through! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bottle Posted May 16, 2014 Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 Pykebird I understand your frustration but it is not your fault that 'they' do not understand. I still use sound signals and will continue to do so. " Did you give the correct audible warning?"....Yes Mi, lord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted May 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 (edited) Paul C, on 16 May 2014 - 07:43 AM, said:. Do you have a link to where the RCTA said this? I don't know if Louise Moore is an 'official' spokesperson for the RCTA but here is her 'article' "Give Way To Towing Boats" http://www.narrowboatworld.com/index.php/leatest/6930-give-way-to-towing-boats Edited May 16, 2014 by Alan de Enfield Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted May 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 The document you posted is I think from the BW/C&RT Thames tideway guidance, and a few of the signals there are not in COLREGs themselves (4+1, 4+2, and long+2 shorts). See the local PLA byelaws here. The Long + 2 shorts is in the ColRegs - it was hammered into us on the RYA Skippers Course as the No2 priority (just below a vessel not under command) in the "Rules of priorities" - even having priority over a sailing vesel (which normally has priority over a powered vessel) http://www.skysailtraining.co.uk/lights_shapes_irpcs_colregs.htm Would it be unreasonable for each steerer to learn and use these 6 sound signals ? Would it be unreasonable for hire companies to have a little 'sticker' by the helm ? I know that the 'muddy ditch' is not the same as commercial rivers or the sea but its not 'rocket science' and if we all work to the same system folks may just understand your intentions, rather than getting het-up and irate because you've 'hooted' at them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ssscrudddy Posted May 16, 2014 Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 (edited) I take Allans point that it makes sense to use the same signals everywhere. What I would like to know is what signals are we supposed to be using (even if they are different from the col regs)So are the ones in the OP the ones we are supposed to use? Are they for the canals? Are they the same for all the canals or are some canals different? What about rivers, ie EA rivers, are they the same? Do different rivers need different signals?It would be nice to get a definitive answer & then have that in the FAQ. Edited May 16, 2014 by Ssscrudddy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray T Posted May 16, 2014 Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 (edited) The final sound in this section is one prolonged blast (four to six seconds) which is used by vessels in narrow channels coming up to a bend or obstruction. It is answered by the same signal from another vessel coming the other way. From here:http://www.aztecsailing.co.uk/newaztec/theory/ch4/Colreg4s3.html Also I was led to believe Morse letter D, dash dot dot is: I am restricted in my ability to manouvre and/or I am unable to manouvre (not under command) Coming from a "Yotti" world I had the COLREGS drummend into me as it is imperative for survival when mixing with the big stuff. I just seems common sence to me to carry on this system on the cut. A bit like driving a car on the road, standard rules are needed or chaos results. Many years ago I was navigator on a boat escorting a Channel swimmer. It was amazing to watch some quite large vessels alter course when I flashed Morse letter D at them. Edited May 16, 2014 by Ray T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted May 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 Ssscrudddy, on 16 May 2014 - 09:37 AM, said: I take Allans point that it makes sense to use the same signals everywhere. What I would like to know is what signals are we supposed to be using (even if they are different from the col regs) So are the ones in the OP the ones we are supposed to use? Are they for the canals? Are they the same for all the canals or are some canals different? What about rivers, ie EA rivers, are they the same? Do different rivers need different signals? It would be nice to get a definitive answer & then have that in the FAQ. These signals are from the agreed 'International Collision Regs' - they apply on any ditch, drain, canal. river, estuary, sea or ocean in the world. If we learnt and applied these six then a lot of confusion would be avoided. The first table is used : Is shown with 'additional' local signals (in this case for the Thames - it may therefore be useful for those using or transiting the Thames to learn these additional 'local' signals. Having said that the signals for 'fully turning around' to Port or Starboard could be useful when we come across a boat 'across' the canal - such as in the process of Winding. Whilst I am as against rules & regulations for the sake of it, as any one, simply applying a standardised system of 'warnings' costs nothing, doesnt 'hurt' and can make boating less stressful & therefore more enjoyable. We all have 'hooters' fitted for the purpose of 'warning/informing' other boats of our presence, so why is it so difficult to actually get them used as intended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dharl Posted May 16, 2014 Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 I take Allans point that it makes sense to use the same signals everywhere. What I would like to know is what signals are we supposed to be using (even if they are different from the col regs) So are the ones in the OP the ones we are supposed to use? Are they for the canals? Are they the same for all the canals or are some canals different? What about rivers, ie EA rivers, are they the same? Do different rivers need different signals? It would be nice to get a definitive answer & then have that in the FAQ. Got this section from the BW Bye Laws as previously mentioned. It is not drastically different from the ColReg sound signals. A nice sticker by the helm would be easier for all to help communicate with each other with out getting all het up! ++ Sound signals 12. (1) Every power-driven vessel navigating on any canal shall be furnished with an efficient whistle. (2) When vessels are in sight of one another the master of a power-driven vessel under way in taking any of the courses hereinafter referred to in this Bye-law shall indicate that course by following signals on such whistle, namely : One short blast to mean “I am altering my course to starboard”, two short blasts to mean “I am altering my course to port”, three short blasts to mean “My engines are going astern”, four short blasts to mean “I am about to turn or to turn round”. This signal shall be followed after a short interval by one short blast if turning to starboard or two short blasts if turning to port and shall be repeated to any approaching vessel, whereupon such approaching vessel shall take action to avoid collision. (3) In fog, mist, falling snow, heavy rainstorm or any other conditions similarly restricting visibility whether by night or day, the following signals shall be used:- (a) A power-driven vessel making way through the water shall sound, at intervals of not more than two minutes a prolonged blast. ( A power-driven vessel under way but stopped and making no way through the water shall sound, at intervals of not more than two minutes, two prolonged blasts with an interval of about one second between them. © A vessel when towing and a vessel under way which is unable to get out of the way of an approaching vessel through being not under command or unable to manoeuvre as required by these Bye-laws shall sound, at intervals of not more than one minute, three blasts in succession, namely, one prolonged blast followed by two short blasts. (d) Every vessel aground in the fairway or mid-channel shall, so long as she remains aground, signify the same by sounding five or more blasts in rapid succession at intervals of not more than one minute. (4) When the view of the canal ahead is obstructed by a bend in the canal and until such view is no longer obscured, a powerdriven vessel making way through the water shall sound, at intervals of twenty seconds, a prolonged blast. (5) The Master of a power driven vessel approaching a lock which is operated by staff provided by the Board for that purpose and requiring the bridge to be opened shall sound one prolonged blast, except that on the Weaver Navigation when navigating downstream he shall sound one prolonged blast followed by one short blast. (6) The Master of a power-driven vessel intending to pass a moveable bridge, which is operated by staff provided by the Board or other authority, and requiring the bridge to be opened shall sound one prolonged blast, except that on the Weaver Navigation when navigating downstream he shall sound one prolonged blast followed by one short blast. ++ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldGoat Posted May 16, 2014 Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 The only valid or perhaps default sound signals are the international signals as above. It seems daft, but navigation in canals and rivers is subject to the merchant shipping acts. If there were to be a accident resulting in loss or damage then the that that you (or the other party) gave a recognised signal. YThe fact that the other side said that didn't hear it (their ghetto blaster was too loud) is not a valid defence. (Where's Nigel Moore....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dharl Posted May 16, 2014 Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 Alan, you beat me to it, and provided a much clearer answer! David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scholar Gypsy Posted May 16, 2014 Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 The Long + 2 shorts is in the ColRegs - it was hammered into us on the RYA Skippers Course as the No2 priority (just below a vessel not under command) in the "Rules of priorities" - even having priority over a sailing vesel (which normally has priority over a powered vessel) http://www.skysailtraining.co.uk/lights_shapes_irpcs_colregs.htm Would it be unreasonable for each steerer to learn and use these 6 sound signals ? Would it be unreasonable for hire companies to have a little 'sticker' by the helm ? I know that the 'muddy ditch' is not the same as commercial rivers or the sea but its not 'rocket science' and if we all work to the same system folks may just understand your intentions, rather than getting het-up and irate because you've 'hooted' at them Thanks - you are right (I found it buried away in rule 35 ©). Rather bizarrely that seems to suggest you should only use that signal when visibility is restricted, when in fact one can think of lots of instances when visibility is fine but you still need the other boat to get out of the way. The towed vessel (if manned) can also sound long+3 shorts in reply to the long+2 shorts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dominic M Posted May 16, 2014 Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 (edited) (1) Every power-driven vessel navigating on any canal shall be furnished with an efficient whistle. And a decent titfer an' all. Edited May 16, 2014 by Dominic M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
furnessvale Posted May 16, 2014 Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 I don't know if Louise Moore is an 'official' spokesperson for the RCTA but here is her 'article' "Give Way To Towing Boats" http://www.narrowboatworld.com/index.php/leatest/6930-give-way-to-towing-boats I have a sign which simply says TOWING which I fasten to the headlight stand when required. It is the size of a car numberplate. I notice the boat in the photo doesn't appear to have such a warning available to oncoming boats. For canal purposes, two blasts on the horn means it is my intention to pass wrong side no matter what she says. If I received two blasts from an oncoming boat, provided I was able to do so, I would be immediately altering course so I think we would both be in trouble. George ex nb Alton retired Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray T Posted May 16, 2014 Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 (edited) For what it is worth I have written to NBW outlining their error. ETA. I am not holding my breath. Edited May 16, 2014 by Ray T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dharl Posted May 16, 2014 Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 I have a sign which simply says TOWING which I fasten to the headlight stand when required. It is the size of a car numberplate. I notice the boat in the photo doesn't appear to have such a warning available to oncoming boats. For canal purposes, two blasts on the horn means it is my intention to pass wrong side no matter what she says. If I received two blasts from an oncoming boat, provided I was able to do so, I would be immediately altering course so I think we would both be in trouble. George ex nb Alton retired Agree with you George, be useful to show a sign to indicate that you are towing......Deep Sea its a Black Diamond, however a sign as you suggested would be more than sufficient. Yes if I heard two blasts on the horn would assume that they meant they where Turing to port and wished to pass "port to port" ie the wrong way! Morse D (Long two Shorts) gives a better indication. As a slight aside last Sept was approaching Dundas Aqueduct heading towards BoA when I saw a Motor and Butty coming round the corner. As I had just passed I suitable stopping spot on the towpath between two moored boats I flashed the Motor twice on the head lamp rather than use the horn and backed up into space to wait. I only got entatngled in the off-side trees for a moment or two. When the pair passed got a wave from the steerer who said didn't often get Hire boats that did that for him! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul C Posted May 16, 2014 Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 We tend to use the horn much more than seems average on blind bridges and junctions etc. Occasionally there's the return of a horn if another boat is coming, but other times while they've not used their horn, they've sussed another boat is coming and have stopped to wait or slowed down significantly, which helps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted May 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 ........... Yes if I heard two blasts on the horn would assume that they meant they where Turing to port and wished to pass "port to port" ie the wrong way!............. ...........As I had just passed I suitable stopping spot on the towpath between two moored boats I flashed the Motor twice on the head lamp rather than use the horn and backed up into space to wait............. Three 'flashes' or three 'hoots' may have been better indicating you were going astern - he may of thought you wanted to pass on the wrong side ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mayalld Posted May 16, 2014 Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 For what it is worth I have written to NBW outlining their error. ETA. I am not holding my breath. And by some miracle they have published a correction, from none other than dear old Pinky, late of this Parish. Does that mean he still sneaks in for a read from time to time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil2 Posted May 16, 2014 Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 I'm waiting for the next article in NBW regarding a head on collision involving a towing boat. My view is, especially on canals, is avoid using any sound signals as the chances of the helmsman on the receiving boat having the faintest idea what they mean is minimal. Even on the Thames I doubt that many skippers know the correct signals. I think having a big enough "towing" sign on the front is a good common sense precaution. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dharl Posted May 16, 2014 Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 Three 'flashes' or three 'hoots' may have been better indicating you were going astern - he may of thought you wanted to pass on the wrong side ? sorry didn't make it clear, we did pass on the wrong side, towpath was on my 'port' side, so pulled in there to wait! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan de Enfield Posted May 16, 2014 Author Report Share Posted May 16, 2014 sorry didn't make it clear, we did pass on the wrong side, towpath was on my 'port' side, so pulled in there to wait! Ok - thanks for the explanation. What you said didnt seem to 'stack-up' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Featured Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now