Future cost of boat licence?

[carlt]

 

Kiljoy

Yes, killing my own joy, alas.

 

On a similar note though I don't see why the "historic" boat discount is reserved for ex-working boats and a 1948 cut-off date imposed.

 

I believe boats such as Waltons, Dartlines, Springers, Harborough Marines, Taylors and others are just as significant to today's waterways and their history as the working boats are so should attract the same discount.

[Graham Davis]

Come on, cheer up Graham, your lot had a great victory at the weekend after all.

I think Kevin means that he feels that those are the most important functions of charities to him, and to a large extent I can sympathise with his view. We all have our personal priorities regarding charities. I like the idea of protecting hedgehogs and I'm sure there's a charity which does so, but if I had to choose between saving a woman from being battered and saving a hedgehog from becoming part of the road surface, well, goodbye hedgehog.

 

Don't worry, I'm in a good mood! Was a good win, wasn't it!!

 

Here's your hedgehog Charity: http://www.sttiggywinkles.org.uk/

 

And of course there are lots of volunteer members of this Charity currently working very hard down in Somerset::

https://www.wessex4x4response.org.uk/home

 

I still think that Kevin made a stupid comment though!

Edited February 24, 2014 by Graham Davis

[Paul C]

I think Kevin is free to decide what he likes regarding what he perceives as a charity or not. The fact that the legal definition and framework of organisations which now have charitable status has changed (probably more than once!) doesn't necessarily mean we all have to alter our thoughts on what we consider a charity (or charitable).

[John Williamson 1955]

Yes, killing my own joy, alas.

 

On a similar note though I don't see why the "historic" boat discount is reserved for ex-working boats and a 1948 cut-off date imposed.

 

I believe boats such as Waltons, Dartlines, Springers, Harborough Marines, Taylors and others are just as significant to today's waterways and their history as the working boats are so should attract the same discount.

It's the same as when they originally removed VED from cars over 25 years old on a roilling basis. The worked out that it sounded good, and that there were so few of them that it would lose the Gpvernment very little income. Ex-working boats from 1948 or earlier are rare, while the Springers and so on are common, which would reduce income unacceptably.

 

One of the reasons they are making VED free for slightly newer cars now is pressure from the EU for all countries to make cars over 40 into "Cherished vehicles", and requiring the owners to have a newer car for day to day use, reserving the older one for shows and such.

[carlt]

Ex-working boats from 1948 or earlier are rare, while the Springers and so on are common, which would reduce income unacceptably.

 

The original 1960s leisure boats are probably less common than ex-working boats.

[furnessvale]

Except this is the road tax exemption for classic cars.

 

"Historic" boats only attract a 50% discount, they have to be built before 1948 and have to meet certain criteria before qualifying.

Here is the Telegraph link you have paraphrased...

 

Clicky

I think you are confusing butties which attract 50% discount, with historic boats which attract 10% discount.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[carlt]

I think you are confusing butties which attract 50% discount, with historic boats which attract 10% discount.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

Yes I am.

 

Thank you it's been a while.

[sueb]

I agree licence fees will still rise and most likely above inflation however they can't just charge what they like. At some point they will start losing people as they can't afford the prices rises or just don't wish to and sell the boat and/or move to non-CRT waters.

 

When Cart take over EA waters there will be a lot less places to move to

[tjderby]

novice question, can you pay monthly for a Crt license. just checked the fees and its £779 a year for the 42ft boat im looking at buying

[churchward]

 

When Cart take over EA waters there will be a lot less places to move to

yes that's true although I would say that is farther away now with the flooding recently.

 

In any case there is still Scotland possibly Ireland and a lot of coast line.

 

Even with EA waters included there still will be an econmic tipping point fpr alicence fee where enough people will stop paying and give or move away. Also probably an increase in licence evasion.

[Peter X]

How about this approach? Only raise fees in line with inflation, but try to get a lot more boats paying fees. People like different aspects of boating for all sorts of reasons and CRT has to try to accommodate as many of them as possible.

Currently I think I read there are about 33,000 boats on 2,000 miles of CRT waterway, less than 17 boats per mile.

More like perhaps 10 per mile even at the busiest times if 7 are in marinas.

Of course the distribution is very uneven, so enforcement has to be very much concentrated on the honeypot sites to stop them clogging up completely. Meanwhile, if someone wants to hang about for ages on a 14-day mooring in a lightly used area where there are always some free, let them! The consequence will be that some of the people boating on a low budget (all those who can) will gravitate to areas where they're left alone by CRT. Even within London maybe some places are not so packed?

To raise income while not adding to congestion, the ideal new boaters to attract are anyone who prefers the peace of the countryside. Me for example: So far I just crew sometimes on my brother's boat, well up into the Midlands, but one day I might end up with my own boat, far from the madding crowd.

[John Williamson 1955]

novice question, can you pay monthly for a Crt license. just checked the fees and its £779 a year for the 42ft boat im looking at buying

There is a facility to pay monthly by direct debit, but it must be a 12 month licence, there are conditions attached, and you lose any prompt payment discount you may have got.

[Peter X]

This topic deserves more attention than it's had so far. The OP effectively asked the important question, how should CRT be looking to balance its books in the medium to long term and will the cost of a boat licence have to soar to make it possible, with the attendant risk that this might choke off demand and therefore not produce the extra income CRT might have hoped for?

 

I feel disappointed that no one answered my post #36, in which I thought I raised some pertinent related questions.

 

Essentially I argue that CRT needs to draw more people into boating, and that outside London and some other popular areas there must be plenty of space to put all the extra boats. My boating experience is fairly limited so far, but I'd like to hear what people who've travelled more of the network think might be possible.

 

My brother and his wife started out by hiring boats for holidays a few years ago, decided they liked it and wanted to do more, then bought their own boat which they keep in a marina in the Midlands (not Pillings Lock!) and use at weekends and for the occasional longer trip. It's a long way from South London but worth the trip. It seems to me that CRT should be encouraging a lot more people along that sort of path, because more boats bought and licensed means money to maintain the network and perhaps restore more of the disused canals. It would also help the boatbuilders and other businesses to prosper, and maybe the extra traffic would even improve security which I gather is a problem in some urban areas. Suggestions please as to exactly what CRT could be doing?

[costalot]

This topic deserves more attention than it's had so far. The OP effectively asked the important question, how should CRT be looking to balance its books in the medium to long term and will the cost of a boat licence have to soar to make it possible, with the attendant risk that this might choke off demand and therefore not produce the extra income CRT might have hoped for?

 

I feel disappointed that no one answered my post #36, in which I thought I raised some pertinent related questions.

 

Essentially I argue that CRT needs to draw more people into boating, and that outside London and some other popular areas there must be plenty of space to put all the extra boats. My boating experience is fairly limited so far, but I'd like to hear what people who've travelled more of the network think might be possible.

 

My brother and his wife started out by hiring boats for holidays a few years ago, decided they liked it and wanted to do more, then bought their own boat which they keep in a marina in the Midlands (not Pillings Lock!) and use at weekends and for the occasional longer trip. It's a long way from South London but worth the trip. It seems to me that CRT should be encouraging a lot more people along that sort of path, because more boats bought and licensed means money to maintain the network and perhaps restore more of the disused canals. It would also help the boatbuilders and other businesses to prosper, and maybe the extra traffic would even improve security which I gather is a problem in some urban areas. Suggestions please as to exactly what CRT could be doing?

Increasing the number of boats will obviously increase CRT revenue. But it will also increase CRT costs. For boat licences to replace the current government grant the number of licensed boats would have to double. I doubt that will happen!

[Bee]

I think for a lot of people the tipping point was reached a while ago, there seems to be more boats for sale than you would expect with natural `churn`, it is not really viable to have a boat for just a couple or three weeks a year and even if you live on it 52 wks a year it is expensive, you can`t compare it to renting a flat because you are providing the flat yourself, you are only paying for permission to live on. I cannot see much more potential to extract more cash from boaters. The answer must lie with politicians. If they want a canal system it must get a lot of funding from taxation, calling BWB a different name and a charity is not a magic answer.

[John Williamson 1955]

Bee, I think you are possibly underestimating just how strapped for cash the Government are.

[Athy]

I believe boats such as Waltons, Dartlines, Springers, Harborough Marines, Taylors and others are just as significant to today's waterways and their history as the working boats are so should attract the same discount.

I have seen elderly Springers not displaying a licence. Surely this is because they enjoy licence-free historic boat status?

[b0atman]

I think all boats whatever age if used for private ownership should pay the same licence.

I think that the only boats paying less should be the charity trip boats.

Do canoes and the stupid hooray henry boats which ignore all speed limits and create major wash (usually accompanied by an ignorant loud mouthed cyclist) pay licence fees if not why not ?

[John Williamson 1955]

I have seen elderly Springers not displaying a licence. Surely this is because they enjoy licence-free historic boat status?

As the owner of an early (1969, allegedly) Springer, I wish they did.

[furnessvale]

As the owner of an early (1969, allegedly) Springer, I wish they did.

21 years older and you would meet the first of the criteria.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[John Williamson 1955]

21 years older and you would meet the first of the criteria.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

I can see the problem there...

[Bee]

In the end it comes down to funding and the politics of where it comes from, national asset with a bigger grant from taxation and an affordable licence or a diminishing grant, soaring licence fees and ordinary people drifting away, I shan`t tell you which side I am on but if anybody needs a pitchfork to man the barricades with I am making some in my shed - free of charge.

[Peter X]

Increasing the number of boats will obviously increase CRT revenue. But it will also increase CRT costs. For boat licences to replace the current government grant the number of licensed boats would have to double. I doubt that will happen!

 

If the number of licensed boats can be increased I can't see how more than about 10% of the extra revenue would go in costs.

The maintenance cost of the system surely bears little relation to the number of boats, and depends mostly on time and weather?

For example a major cost like an embankment collapse is going to be down to weather and would happen anyway. Lock gates wear out anyway because you have a big lump of wood sitting in water, and so on.

 

I saw some figures on the Pillings Lock topic, put there to refute Paul Lillie's claim that projected numbers of boats provided by BW were an overestimate, which showed that the number of licensed boats had increased by some thousands in the period 2007-2011. My guess, and no I don't have the hard information to back it up, is that with the right marketing by the various parties (CRT, the hire companies, the marinas and tourist boards), an increase of as many as 2000 boats per year is not impossible. That may not be enough to make government subsidy unnecessary, but would go some way towards that target.

 

There do appear to be quite a lot of secondhand boats up for sale, but at least that'll keep down the entry cost! My brother didn't splash out on a shiny new boat, he bought secondhand then spent a few grand having it repaired.

[GUMPY]

Its simple,

double the licence fee for any boat over 33ft

50% surcharge on top for any boat over 7ft (nominal) beam

50% discount for boats under25ft.

 

This would have The effect of encouraging smaller more affordable boats onto the system, would quickly dispel the theory that canals are cheap housing, and get rid of fat narrowboats, sounds like a win win situation to me.

[Alan de Enfield]

Loddon, on 08 Mar 2014 - 5:27 PM, said:

Its simple,

double the licence fee for any boat over 33ft 45 foot (as the smaller ones can share most locks with a 25 foot boat)

50% surcharge on top for any boat over 7ft (nominal) beam

50% discount for boats under25ft.

 

This would have The effect of encouraging smaller more affordable boats onto the system, would quickly dispel the theory that canals are cheap housing, and get rid of fat narrowboats, sounds like a win win situation to me.

 

What size boat do i have ?

Edited March 8, 2014 by Alan de Enfield