Another eviction

[Naughty Cal]

Are there any other places this barge can be moored? I don't mean just other marinas but marinas with vacancies.

 

Isnt there always?

[nicknorman]

Are there any other places this barge can be moored? I don't mean just other marinas but marinas with vacancies.

Yes of course there are. Loads. If you mean in the East end of London, well maybe not but then these folks are retired so it's not as though they have jobs they have to get to, or kids in school. And there is probably someone desperate for the mooring so one man's doom is another man's blessing.

 

I'm sorry but as NC says, you can't expect to take a business to court, twice effectively, and then expect everything to be nicey nicey afterwards. That is just not how the world works, and they are old enough to know that. They were hoping they could get away with it because of the charity thing but they were wrong.

[johnmck]

“Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pound ought and six, result misery.”
― Charles Dickens, David Copperfield

 

As usual, Mr Dickens hit the nail on the head. I would love to live in the Cotswolds, in a picture book cottage, but using the above formula, I would soon be in deep financial doo.

 

So, I can only live in a place that I can afford. Market forces dictate this, no matter whom owns the space I desire.

[starman]

Not that it is necessarily relevant in this case but can someone on a residential mooring get stuff like pension credit, housing benefit etc and would that assist towards mooring increases? (Depending on how many spare bedrooms they have of course!)

[Leo No2]

Difficult to comment on specific cases but one thing is clear to me. The "individual giving manager" and his team are going to continue to have difficulties getting the general public and boaters to become friends and to be chugged when the charity has bad publicity on a month by month basis.

CRT need to be free to enforce regulations but they must also be aware of The need to manage the PR and social issues that are associated with cases like these.

This is why I have been advocating for a welfare manager who can step in and try and ensure that the relevant agencies are engaged at an early stage. It may not effect the end result but could potentially ensure that some support is available. There is a growing number of continuous cruisers and an ageing boater population so the need is likely to increase.

Mark - forgive me if I am wrong but I thought the idea of the Waterways Chaplains was meant to cover the welfare side of things or i) have I got it wrong or ii) I have I got it right and it's just not working perhaps

[johnmck]

Not that it is necessarily relevant in this case but can someone on a residential mooring get stuff like pension credit, housing benefit etc and would that assist towards mooring increases? (Depending on how many spare bedrooms they have of course!)

 

Before anybody else tells me just how dense I am, I know already!

 

But, why should MY lifestyle choice be supported by any form of benefit?

[The Director]

I think what a lot of people are missing is that Rod and Annie went through the court procedure with the full backing of the whole community at Poplar. Their's is not the only case which deserves investigating.

 

Many others on the marina are also being forced into taking up new 'residential' contracts that they believed they were already paying for, or for some who fulfil the criteria for 'non- residential' - do not need. They are having to pay an extra £4 - £5k for no extra benefits.

 

Many are desperately trying to find ways of funding the additional 30% for a widebeam charge which is ambiguous.

 

The 'community' is being disseminated - and new people do not appear to be queuing up to replace those who have already left or to buy the boats available for sale.

 

I don't think anybody is expecting 'charity' or 'welfare officers' - just a fair hearing and a sensible resolution.

 

I'm confused by this one. Inland and Coastal are categories used by BWML themselves, so they get to decide. How is this the business of a higher court?

 

It's like Tesco calling their stores Express, Extra or Metro

 

Richard

 

The Port of London authority classifies Poplar as Coastal but BWML will not. It is this fact the Ombudsman decided needed to be clarified in a higher court.

[Alan de Enfield]

 

 

 

.....................- and new people do not appear to be queuing up to replace those who have already left or to buy the boats available for sale.

 

 

 

I keep reading this in various forms - is this some peculiarly "London" thing that a boat can only be sold with a mooring, or is it that the boats are not selling as they are ovepriced and the sellers are trying to recove some of the ridiculous 'premium' they paid.

 

I think an example was given earlier of a £70,000 boat for sale for £120,000 because it was on a 'London' mooring - then questions arise as to if the mooring is actually transferable

 

A boat will sell if it is priced at a realistic 'market' price

[johnmck]

This discussion takes me back a good few years to a conversation I overheard whilst enjoying a pint at the Square and compass in Worth Matravers.

 

Male and female, both late twenties. He lambasting her for moving from London, buying a property in the village and thereby destroying his heritage and ability to remain as a resident.

 

She was looking for a better life.

 

Both arguaments had merit, but it boils down to means. Life is not fair, you just have to make the most of it and where appropriate, move on.

 

My current lifestyle cannot be sustained. I will have to weigh up my options soon. But it is my choice, no other agency should be expected to sustain my lifestyle.

[magnetman]

An elderly pensioner in ill health with a barge brokerage advertising boats for sale at inflated prices in Poplar marina?

 

Boats aren't selling there because they still have the mooring premium attached which is obviously less now the moorings have gone up and Maybe ? BMWL have something to say about transfer of moorings (management fee?) rather than let this money be trousered by an independent brokerage IN their marina...

 

2p

[The Director]

“Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pound ought and six, result misery.”

― Charles Dickens, David Copperfield

 

As usual, Mr Dickens hit the nail on the head. I would love to live in the Cotswolds, in a picture book cottage, but using the above formula, I would soon be in deep financial doo.

 

So, I can only live in a place that I can afford. Market forces dictate this, no matter whom owns the space I desire.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I keep reading this in various forms - is this some peculiarly "London" thing that a boat can only be sold with a mooring, or is it that the boats are not selling as they are ovepriced and the sellers are trying to recove some of the ridiculous 'premium' they paid.

 

I think an example was given earlier of a £70,000 boat for sale for £120,000 because it was on a 'London' mooring - then questions arise as to if the mooring is actually transferable

 

A boat will sell if it is priced at a realistic 'market' price

 

 

You are right - you do pay a 'premium' for a mooring - but this happens everywhere - not just London.

[haggis]

It has been said several times that the couple raised the complaint, Ombudsmans case and court case for everyone who moored in the marina. Does anyone else think it was a bit selfish of all the others to let the elderly couple carry the can for them all? Surely some of them at least were bright enough to see the outcome that no marina wants moorers who raise court cases against them and the elderly couple would be asked to leave.

 

Haggis

[nicknorman]

You are right - you do pay a 'premium' for a mooring - but this happens everywhere - not just London.

 

No it doesn't.

[magnetman]

 

 

There used to be a way of transferring non transferable moorings by going into a boat share (I own 99.99% you own 0.01%) then the original owner leaving the share allowing new owner to keep boat and mooring.

 

I believe this system was used by some to make money on more popular moorings but BW did look at it and stop it I think

[The Director]

An elderly pensioner in ill health with a barge brokerage advertising boats for sale at inflated prices in Poplar marina?

 

Boats aren't selling there because they still have the mooring premium attached which is obviously less now the moorings have gone up and Maybe ? BMWL have something to say about transfer of moorings (management fee?) rather than let this money be trousered by an independent brokerage IN their marina...

 

2p

 

BWML receive 5% of the purchase price of the boat as a 'Sale on Berth' fee. It is in their interests for boats to be sold. I believe Rod's fees are just to cover advertising.

[jelunga]

 

Madcat. I think you are making more of CRT charitable status than there is. They are under no obligation to provide any social care or housing.

 

In this case I would say they have acted more than fairly. If I had taken our marina to court I wouldnt still expect to be moored there.

They would only need to if it was one of their charitable objects when set up and I am sure it isn't.

[Alan de Enfield]

 

 

 

You are right - you do pay a 'premium' for a mooring - but this happens everywhere - not just London.

 

I disagree :- Whilst I have not moored "everywhere" the Moorings that I have had over the years have not attracted any ' premium'.

 

It appears as if you are suggesting that you can only buy a boat that is for sale and must remain in that marina / mooring. I believe that the majority of boat purchases are conducted differently.

 

Find a boat that you like / can afford (anywhere in the country), arrange a mooring at a Marina / Mooring that you like & can afford (anywhere in the country)

Take boat to the Marina / Mooring - job done.

 

There is a world outside of London

 

BWML receive 5% of the purchase price of the boat as a 'Sale on Berth' fee. It is in their interests for boats to be sold. I believe Rod's fees are just to cover advertising.

 

Then take it outside the Marina - tie up on the visitors moorings for a day or two and sell it there - save the 5%. New buyer can then take it wherever he wants - even back into the same Marina ( you seem to think there are plenty of spaces that 'have not been taken up when people have left)

[johnmck]

 

I disagree :- Whilst I have not moored "everywhere" the Moorings that I have had over the years have not attracted any ' premium'.

 

It appears as if you are suggesting that you can only buy a boat that is for sale and must remain in that marina / mooring. I believe that the majority of boat purchases are conducted differently.

 

Find a boat that you like / can afford (anywhere in the country), arrange a mooring at a Marina / Mooring that you like & can afford (anywhere in the country)

Take boat to the Marina / Mooring - job done.

 

There is a world outside of London

 

 

That is what I meant to say! The words were there, but not necesarily in the right order.

[jelunga]

 

 

I get the impression from some that because the owners of bwml are owned by a charitable trust, that this somehow means they should be more charitable to their moorers.

Why should they be ? they are a business arm of the trust and are there to make a profit.

14skipper

Similar to many other charities. Just because BWML is owned by aCharity does not give it charitable aims or status.

So can we all please stop knocking CRT. In this case since it is a non charitable company, BWML, that is the marina operator in question

[The Director]

It has been said several times that the couple raised the complaint, Ombudsmans case and court case for everyone who moored in the marina. Does anyone else think it was a bit selfish of all the others to let the elderly couple carry the can for them all? Surely some of them at least were bright enough to see the outcome that no marina wants moorers who raise court cases against them and the elderly couple would be asked to leave.

 

Haggis

 

 

No it doesn't.

 

Certainly the case in Wiltshire......and London.

[magnetman]

The thing about 'saving the 5%' is that you make far more than that if you sell in the marina with mooring and the mooring fees are a bargain. If the mooring fees are not a bargain the boat is less valuable, obviously.

 

I bought my boat elsewhere and bid on a CRT auction mooring for it Seems much more straightforward otherwise you pay the premium for a marina mooring assuming mooring fees are static then mooring fees go up and you lose money..

[The Director]

 

I disagree :- Whilst I have not moored "everywhere" the Moorings that I have had over the years have not attracted any ' premium'.

 

It appears as if you are suggesting that you can only buy a boat that is for sale and must remain in that marina / mooring. I believe that the majority of boat purchases are conducted differently.

 

Find a boat that you like / can afford (anywhere in the country), arrange a mooring at a Marina / Mooring that you like & can afford (anywhere in the country)

Take boat to the Marina / Mooring - job done.

 

There is a world outside of London

 

Then take it outside the Marina - tie up on the visitors moorings for a day or two and sell it there - save the 5%. New buyer can then take it wherever he wants - even back into the same Marina ( you seem to think there are plenty of spaces that 'have not been taken up when people have left)

 

What a brilliant idea! Wish I'd thought of that - when I'd bought it!

[Alan de Enfield]

The Director, on 21 Feb 2014 - 09:20 AM, said:

 

 

 

Certainly the case in Wiltshire......and London.

 

What a small country we live in when "everywhere" is just Wiltshire and London.

 

If you are going to make such sweeping statement & 'wild accusations' at least have some supporting evidence.

[nicknorman]

Certainly the case in Wiltshire......and London.

 

But you said it happens everywhere. It doesn't, only in a few highly pressured locations. And I think it is a strategy that is backfiring for the reasons you mention. I know that when you live in London you think the world ends at the M25 but trust me, there is a big country out there with lots of boats and moorings! Maybe coming out of the marina for a cruise around the country would open your eyes!

[magnetman]

Another fairly serious problem with buying for example a Humber Keel and wanting to moor in London is that there are very few options for a boat 16ft wide so if you fees go up a lot you have a big problem as there aren't many places can accommodate that beam at a sensible price.

 

Best beam around London is 12ft6 as it opens up canal moorings and the CC option as a temporary backup