Rotten bilges!

[alan_fincher]

 

Indeed, that was my reaction. It's not normal then?

 

I plan to reassemble with battens on top of steel bearers...

 

Does this mean I need to think about working forward through the boat and refurbishing the rest of the floor?

 

well I'm still not completely sure what I'm seeing, but.......

 

Not wishing to panic you, but please tell me there are some steel cross members across the bottom of the boat somewhere, aren't there? (Please!)

 

It's not just sheets of flat steel, with nothing to brace it structurally, surely?

 

Normal practice would be that if wood bearers are used they sit on top of steel framing that is part of the bottom of the boat. In that way any water that does end up in there, (and ideally none should, if not a "wet bilged" boat), will not be soaking into timbers.

 

There don't have to be additional wood supports at all, though in many boats. In our leisure boat the base is framed with steel that has a steel square shaped "U"section, turned on its side, and standing overall 4" off the bottom. Ballast goes between these, but then the plywood floor is straight on top with no extra wood bearers between floor and those "girders", resulting in greater headroom inside.

 

Not very well described - I'll see if I have a picture with the floors up!

 

EDIT: This was when we were reorganising some less than brilliant "crazy paving" ballast - not sure if it helps......

 

(The black cross members being a structural part of the steel bat - there is no wood involved....)

 

Edited February 9, 2014 by alan_fincher

[RLWP]

 

 

It's a David Newbury build.

 

 

According to Jim Shead's lists, she is unique - David Newbry built only this boat

 

Richard

[Tom Richmond]

 

well I'm still not completely sure what I'm seeing, but.......

 

Not wishing to panic you, but please tell me there are some steel cross members across the bottom of the boat somewhere, aren't there? (Please!)

 

It's not just sheets of flat steel, with nothing to brace it structurally, surely?

 

Normal practice would be that if wood bearers are used they sit on top of steel framing that is part of the bottom of the boat. In that way any water that does end up in there, (and ideally none should, if not a "wet bilged" boat), will not be soaking into timbers.

 

There don't have to be additional wood supports at all, though in many boats. In our leisure boat the base is framed with steel that has a steel square shaped "U"section, turned on its side, and standing overall 4" off the bottom. Ballast goes between these, but then the plywood floor is straight on top with no extra wood bearers between floor and those "girders", resulting in greater headroom inside.

 

Not very well described - I'll see if I have a picture with the floors up!

 

EDIT: This was when we were reorganising some less than brilliant "crazy paving" ballast - not sure if it helps......

 

(The black cross members being a structural part of the steel bat - there is no wood involved....)

 

 

Got it even without the picture.

 

Yes there are steel cross braces, they are 4" angle, fitted so that one edge of the angle is welded down to the baseplate and the perpendicular flat plate is at the top (for the floor to sit on) They are green in the pics above.

 

The previous fit out had been done with wooden 'joists' sitting along side these steel cross members (with a slight gap) on the base of the boat. I think they (the wooden 'joists') must have been good hardwood because they were hardly rotten. The flooring above was then screwed to them.

 

How is you floor held in place? Does it just float there?

 

According to Jim Shead's lists, she is unique - David Newbry built only this boat

 

Richard

 

That's the boat though... She is a little different... Fits that she was a one off!

[David Mack]

3 suggestions:

 

1. While you have everything out can you get a plate welded in to increase the height of the bulkhead between the engine bilge and the cabin bilge? That way, if you get 20cm of water in the engine bilge again it won't flow over into the cabin bilge.

 

2. Put an access hatch into your new floor at the back of the cabin bilge so you can inspect it and if necessary pump it out.

 

3. Try to get some underfloor ventilation, so that small amounts of water in the bilge can dry out naturally.

[Tom Richmond]

3 suggestions:

 

1. While you have everything out can you get a plate welded in to increase the height of the bulkhead between the engine bilge and the cabin bilge? That way, if you get 20cm of water in the engine bilge again it won't flow over into the cabin bilge.

 

2. Put an access hatch into your new floor at the back of the cabin bilge so you can inspect it and if necessary pump it out.

 

3. Try to get some underfloor ventilation, so that small amounts of water in the bilge can dry out naturally.

 

Good suggestions.

 

1. Possibly.

 

2. Definitely. As it stands at present though, the easiest way is from the engine hole, as there is only a 20cm bulkhead!

 

3. Well ventilated from aft (open to engine hole!) what should I be looking at further forward? Could easily vent right forward under kitchen units both sides, mid ships under bath and basin units, and towards stern under bedroom storage, but last three would all be to one side. What are we talking here, a couple of 10mm drill holes? Or a 10cm sq with a grate over?

[alan_fincher]

How is you floor held in place? Does it just float there?

 

Screws through the ply go straight into drilled holes in the metal "joists".

 

I'd love to say they had used proper self tapping screws, but in truth they are just basic steel countersunk head screws that seem able to cut enough of a thread into the drilled holes to act like proper self tappers. None of them ever seem to be loose, anyway. Probably not what I would have done, but this is a supposed professional fit out!

[alan_fincher]

Yes there are steel cross braces, they are 4" angle, fitted so that one edge of the angle is welded down to the baseplate and the perpendicular flat plate is at the top (for the floor to sit on) They are green in the pics above.

 

Good!

 

I wasn't entirely clear what was wood, and what was steel. I think you need to arrange that there is no low down timber. Even if you get the boat bone dry now, plumbing leaks or failed water seals, (or even condensation) can result in water on the baseplate. What you don't want is wood, (even hardwood) sitting in, or even close to that water, if you can avoid it.

[lampini]

These last two are just for fun... Or electrocution. I was amazed when I found the one (and yes I was outside on the pontoon with one end plugged in to the power socket), but I was dumbstruck when I turned up the second!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mate!

 

In my world, these are called "Widdowmakers".... For obvious reasons!

 

On the upside, get 2x female 16a and some arctic (blue cable) and rewire you got a spare too!

[Tom Richmond]

These last two are just for fun... Or electrocution. I was amazed when I found the one (and yes I was outside on the pontoon with one end plugged in to the power socket), but I was dumbstruck when I turned up the second!!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

Mate!

 

In my world, these are called "Widdowmakers".... For obvious reasons!

 

On the upside, get 2x female 16a and some arctic (blue cable) and rewire you got a spare too!

 

Yes, I work as a theatre electrician, I too know them by the term widowmaker. Hehe. But yeah, no end of spare male plugs now!

[Odana]

Mmmmm. All looks fun.I had a bilge that looked like that last year. After scraping we used Vactan. Excellent stuff. Make sure you obey the instruction to only use in temps over (???) 6 degrees- metal temp not room temp. If you ignore this it never cures and you have to start again having wasted time mess and money... If you have to do bilges now in winter use a different product that isn't temp sensitive.

Keep smiling. And think of the shiny new well insulated bedroom you will have soon.

[lampini]

 

Yes, I work as a theatre electrician, I too know them by the term widowmaker. Hehe. But yeah, no end of spare male plugs now!

 

Blimey - we do the same (ish) job!

[Polishicebreaker]

Love the rust

[Neil2]

I think I have followed this thread correctly but I apologise if I've missed something.

 

It's just that so far do we know exactly how all that water got into the cabin bilge?

 

It is unusual for water to get in a trad at the stern, and one of the pictures I saw seems to show the engine bilge dry.

 

Do we know if the front well drains overboard and is there definitely a sealed bulkhead between the front well and the cabin bilge? Looking at the picture of the boat it's not clear but that front well does look quite low to me.

 

What I'm saying Tom is before you start refurbing the interior you need to establish for certain how the cabin bilge got so wet.

 

Ok the surveyor wasn't obliged to look in the cabin but you would have thought he would have wouldn't you? With all that rotten wood there must have been a tell tale smell inside, and that would have put anyone with a bit of experience on their guard.

 

 

[Tom Richmond]

I think I have followed this thread correctly but I apologise if I've missed something.

 

It's just that so far do we know exactly how all that water got into the cabin bilge?

 

It is unusual for water to get in a trad at the stern, and one of the pictures I saw seems to show the engine bilge dry.

 

Do we know if the front well drains overboard and is there definitely a sealed bulkhead between the front well and the cabin bilge? Looking at the picture of the boat it's not clear but that front well does look quite low to me.

 

What I'm saying Tom is before you start refurbing the interior you need to establish for certain how the cabin bilge got so wet.

 

Ok the surveyor wasn't obliged to look in the cabin but you would have thought he would have wouldn't you? With all that rotten wood there must have been a tell tale smell inside, and that would have put anyone with a bit of experience on their guard.

 

 

 

Hi Neil,

 

I hear what your saying, but I think you may have overlooked my initial diagnosis (suggested....) which is that it overflowed from the engine hole.

 

I definitely intend to do some further investigation up forward, and check that things are dry there. So far I have had some floor up in the living area (about 1/3 of the cabin space from the front) and it is solid and rot free. I have not seen down into the bilge at this point, but will investigate when I have better tools with me (and leave a ventilation hole - if someone can suggest how big such a hole might need to be?)

 

There certainly are conventional drain holes in the front well deck on both sides. They are about an inch an a half long, by an inch high in the two aft corners where the well deck reaches the cabin sides. There is also a water tank under that deck, so there is the potential for leaks there. I haven't yet fully checked this...

 

But, my diagnosis at present is that the water has flowed in from the engine 'ole, and I'll tell you for why:

 

* Boat has not be used for navigation in last four years (previous owner proudly told me engine had not had any wear and tear, because he had only used it once, to bring from its mooring to brokerage when he decided to sell).

* Stern gland was in poor shape (survey picked that up), not surprising given that I doubt it has been touched either in those four years!

* Engine bay is emptied with a manually switched bilge pump (ie. no float switch) Even when I viewed her I flicked this on and listened to water churning out for a good five minutes.

* Forward end of engine bay has very low bulkhead (20cm or so, the same height as the engine oil drip tray!)

* Even with engine hole fully pumped out (sucking air) the water was only 10cm from the top of that bulkhead, due to a slight list to port (made worse by the amount of water in the bilge at that time) and the fact that the bilge pump is mounted on starboard... There may also be a something blocking the flow of the water from one side to the other in the 'ole, need to get down behind the engine (with some daylight) to know for sure.

 

I am of course the last person who wants to believe there is anything wrong up forwards, but this does seem like the problem to me.

 

It has already been suggested that I get a welder in to extend the aft bulkhead. I think this is a very good idea, and will be talking to Andy at Clean Sailing who has already done some work on her (and is a fellow rock music fan) to see what he can do...

 

Wish I could be back there now to start the investigations! But alas, must wait until Wednesday.

 

Tom.

[Stilllearning]

Any hole you cut for future investigation and regular checks needs to be big enough to fit a hand baler in, so as to remove any water you find there.

On our previous boat the was enough space for a big sponge, but not enough to get a flat sided plastic baling cup in.

[alan_fincher]

 

* Forward end of engine bay has very low bulkhead (20cm or so, the same height as the engine oil drip tray!)

 

If you genuinely mean a 20 cm (8") tall barrier across the whole boat separating engine bay from living accommodation bilge, I would not be overly concerned about that depth.

 

With everything in good order, you should never have any significant amount of water floating around in the back, (or indeed anything like 20 cms of fluid, noxious or otherwise, in the area specifically constructed under the engine).

 

Unless I'm missing something, I would see no urgent requirement to extend that 20cms barrier "upwards" at all. If you find and stop the sources of water coming in, why would you possibly contemplate allowing anything like 20cms of the stuff to ever come back?

 

Most "modern trad" boats are walk through from front to back. If any bulkhead at that position were much deeper than 20cms, it would surely form something you needed to actively step over? I wouldn't have thought much deeper than 20cms was "normal", anyway in most boats?

[Barry]

You're going to have to spend some dosh to refit that end of the boat so can I suggest you invest 40 quid in a wet and dry vac. It'll help you cean up the last of the wet solids brilliantly and if the steel surfaces are pretty smooth it will suck them almost dry right now. That'll help you to see if there is water coming from another direction.

 

I have one that I use for the bilges for both my boat and my lady's

 

Very useful tool

[Tom Richmond]

 

Blimey - we do the same (ish) job!

 

Hence your name, Lampini! I mostly do small scale LDing and relighting out of Bristol and South West.

 

Have you ever had cause to use, or even see the twin 13A to single 32A cable used (regularly a few decades ago) to draw 26A from a twin 13A socket in a domestic installation? I used to use them often when touring to plug dimmers in in village halls and the like. Super dangerous if anyone decides to unplug one side only!

 

If you genuinely mean a 20 cm (8") tall barrier across the whole boat separating engine bay from living accommodation bilge, I would not be overly concerned about that depth.

 

With everything in good order, you should never have any significant amount of water floating around in the back, (or indeed anything like 20 cms of fluid, noxious or otherwise, in the area specifically constructed under the engine).

 

Unless I'm missing something, I would see no urgent requirement to extend that 20cms barrier "upwards" at all. If you find and stop the sources of water coming in, why would you possibly contemplate allowing anything like 20cms of the stuff to ever come back?

 

Most "modern trad" boats are walk through from front to back. If any bulkhead at that position were much deeper than 20cms, it would surely form something you needed to actively step over? I wouldn't have thought much deeper than 20cms was "normal", anyway in most boats?

 

 

OK. My thought was that it would be fine (with bilge pump suitable positioned, and float switch installed!) but an extra line of defense is always good...

 

Now I think of it though, all those classic boats with old engines can't have too significant a bulkhead can they, and many of them have stayed afloat even longer!

 

OK. Maybe I'll not worry so much about that, and focus instead on just keeping the engine hole dry (ish). I have a few slightly more experienced boaters coming to look at it, so I'll see what they think though, just to be sure.

 

Thanks for all the help so far!

[MoominPapa]

If your theory of overflow from the engine compartment is true, I'd expect to see evidence of oil contamination in the bilges, especially as any oil under the engine would float on top of the water and thus be the first stuff over the barrier. Unless you engine is leak-free, of course. (Yeah, right!)

 

MP.

[Neil2]

I agree no need to extend the bulkhead but it would help quite a bit on the sound insulation front which you might appreciate with that Lister...

 

I agree you would have expected the water in the cabin bilge to be at least greasy, if not oily, (maybe it was..?) if the engine bilge was the culprit.

 

One positive aspect of all this is you will certainly know a lot about this boat by the time you have her sorted!

[lampini]

 

Hence your name, Lampini! I mostly do small scale LDing and relighting out of Bristol and South West.

 

Have you ever had cause to use, or even see the twin 13A to single 32A cable used (regularly a few decades ago) to draw 26A from a twin 13A socket in a domestic installation? I used to use them often when touring to plug dimmers in in village halls and the like. Super dangerous if anyone decides to unplug one side only!

 

 

Oh yes i've seen 'em - as you say, not for many years now, thankfully!

These days i'm mainly doing corporate in the "unique venues of London".. it's ok and my crews are fantastic - but i'm looking to become less London-centric when we get our boat..

 

Well that explains why you're "rolling with the punches" on this one! Best of luck with the boat, i recon you'll be fine!

[Captain Fizz]

Blimey Tom, looks like you have your work cut out!

We can have a good chat next week.

Do not despair!!

 

Simon

[jake_crew]

How is the front well-deck / cratch area drained ?

 

Is it possible this where the water is coming from ?

 

I know of some 1970s boat builders who ran the drains for this area inside the hull, using garden hose, down to the engine bilges.

[nebulae]

Hopefully,your bilges will be dry from now on.I have re-fitted a couple of ex hire boats with marine ply floors.Massive wet area around showers caused extensive rot.The rot then travelled inside the ply laminations causing the floor to collapse in the centre section of the boat.It was a devil of a job to replace the floor without destroying the very nice woodwork above it.My present boat has a floor made from second hand floorboards.They are good solid pine boards.The advantage of this arrangement is that you can easily remove boards in the passage way through the boat,without destroying your fit out .In case of water getting in the bilge,a couple of boards can be removed to speed drying out.

[madcat]

Good luck with this, I too would suggest a wet vac. I have three of them and never pass up the chance to get hold of another if someone is getting rid.

 

Those extension leads are a nightmare and I don't know why people do it.