Dispute at Pillings

[George94]

Are you sure there are three zeros too many?

 

Ian.

 

BW had expenditure of £200 million in the year 2011/12, but Adam reckons that has now fallen to £126,000, thanks no doubt to all the volunteers.

 

Adam, I think you will find that the chief exec's salary alone exceeds £126,000. Certainly Robbin' Evans salary did.

[PaulG]

 

thanks no doubt to all the volunteers.

I think there is actually considerable "doubt" surrounding your claim that volunteers reduce the expenditure of CRT.

Where is your evidence?

[adam1uk]

Are you sure there are three zeros too many?

 

Ian.

You're right. Not three zeros too many.

 

I suspect that in its first year, its income includes the value of the property vested in it.

That may be the explanation -- because actual income is nothing like that much. Edited April 23, 2014 by adam1uk

[Dangerous Dave]

 

That isn't quite true.

 

Where a Marina has residential moorings, but the number and location of those moorings is indeterminate, then (remembering that the CT is on the mooring, not the boat), it is often treated as a single entity, and billed to the marina.

 

I know that New Mills Marina, with around 20 residential boats and 10 non-residential was treated as a single entity for CT purposes. the marina received a single bill for a band B property, and the moorers paid a share.

 

It is an arrangement that works very well for residential boats in marinas, who pay a very modest amount of CT (even taking into account an admin fee)

 

 

Somewhere there is a court case where an individual had this situation aired in the court and won the case against the local authority charging boat people paying council tax.

It was mentioned to me as a matter of precedent by.......none other than Paul Lillie in between an argument regarding extra surcharge on post

packets!!

Its a pity that i didn't go to the bertholders meeting to put this forward.

Word has it that PL was asked to pay a substancial amount of revenue for the commercial use of the apartment(penthouse) above the caff and has used this scam as a means of extra revenue.

I did mean to check this statement issued to all live aboard moorers with the Charnwood council way back but let it go expecting for someone or two to take the case up.

I did hear that one leaseholder was so pleased about being charged council tax as it made his lease MORE VALUABLE!! Poor soul.

 

 

Somewhere there is a court case where an individual had this situation aired in the court and won the case against the local authority charging boat people paying council tax.

It was mentioned to me as a matter of precedent by.......none other than Paul Lillie in between an argument regarding extra surcharge on post

packets!!

Its a pity that i didn't go to the bertholders meeting to put this forward.

Word has it that PL was asked to pay a substancial amount of revenue for the commercial use of the apartment(penthouse) above the caff and has used this scam as a means of extra revenue.

I did mean to check this statement issued to all live aboard moorers with the Charnwood council way back but let it go expecting for someone or two to take the case up.

I did hear that one leaseholder was so pleased about being charged council tax as it made his lease MORE VALUABLE!! Poor soul.

 

It may be a idea to ask Charnwood Council if they are receiving council tax from Pillings Lock Marina on a residential basis...IF INDEED PLM HAS PLANNING PERMISSION FOR SUCH..

Not that it bothers me as i don't hang around PLM anymore....But!

[Phantasm]

 

 

Somewhere there is a court case where an individual had this situation aired in the court and won the case against the local authority charging boat people paying council tax.

It was mentioned to me as a matter of precedent by.......none other than Paul Lillie in between an argument regarding extra surcharge on post

packets!!

Its a pity that i didn't go to the bertholders meeting to put this forward.

Word has it that PL was asked to pay a substancial amount of revenue for the commercial use of the apartment(penthouse) above the caff and has used this scam as a means of extra revenue.

I did mean to check this statement issued to all live aboard moorers with the Charnwood council way back but let it go expecting for someone or two to take the case up.

I did hear that one leaseholder was so pleased about being charged council tax as it made his lease MORE VALUABLE!! Poor soul.

 

It may be a idea to ask Charnwood Council if they are receiving council tax from Pillings Lock Marina on a residential basis...IF INDEED PLM HAS PLANNING PERMISSION FOR SUCH..

Not that it bothers me as i don't hang around PLM anymore....But!

After a week away I've just had a quick browse through the pages I've missed. I agree that if PLT have paid £30k up front that they may not have to pay quarterly payments in addition, but I don't see how that protects CaRT after April 2015.

 

DD, I think we both remember the boats that started all the residential status debate. But it is interesting that the question of residential council tax did not arise until after PL starting using the apartment as a commercial enterprise.

[DeanS]

 

A while back there were some questions raised here about the status of residential moorers at PLM. Dangerous Dave sent me a document regarding this issue and asked me to post it. I don't belong to any social groups (like FB) or photo sharing services and this document is a pdf file, so I just copied and pasted it below. The document is on PLM Letterhead.

 

 

erm....Im on a residential mooring and I pay almost £1000 a year in Council Tax. Why do the boats at Pillings lock only pay £152/yr ?

 

???

 

am I paying too much?

[Phantasm]

 

erm....Im on a residential mooring and I pay almost £1000 a year in Council Tax. Why do the boats at Pillings lock only pay £152/yr ?

 

???

 

am I paying too much?

Could it be that PLM doesn't have a demand from the council for residential council tax and the £152x(a number of boats) covers the commercial council tax for the apartment?

[Paul G2]

Could it be that PLM doesn't have a demand from the council for residential council tax and the £152x(a number of boats) covers the commercial council tax for the apartment?

 

Could that be the reason for this tidbit of advice from PL and RR?

 

•Any further contact with Local Authorities for “non-Res” clients could result in them automatically be identified as Residential.

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

 

erm....Im on a residential mooring and I pay almost £1000 a year in Council Tax. Why do the boats at Pillings lock only pay £152/yr ?

 

???

 

am I paying too much?

 

Its all explained in the VOA link I posted.

Either the 'boat' is classed as a dwelling and hence pays full band A (?) council tax

or

The Moorings are classed as a dwelling and the number of moorers using the moorings have Band A (?) divided by the number of boats in PLM case £1216 divided by 8 boats = £152

 

So - if your boat moves and you are not guaranteed to have exactly the same spot everytime you moor then - yes - you are paying too much.

[Dangerous Dave]

 

erm....Im on a residential mooring and I pay almost £1000 a year in Council Tax. Why do the boats at Pillings lock only pay £152/yr ?

 

???

 

am I paying too much?

 

 

I'd seriously consider looking into the matter!

[Bod]

If you had an On-line mooring from C&RT, you would be liable for full Council tax.

Share a marina with several others, with the marina operater able to relocate, your mooring at will, you would not be liable for Council Tax.

Have I got that right?

 

Bod

[Alan de Enfield]

If you had an On-line mooring from C&RT, you would be liable for full Council tax.Not necessarily - possibly

 

 

Share a marina with several others, with the marina operater able to relocate, your mooring at will, you would not be liable for Council Tax.

Have I got that right? Yes

 

Bod

[Bod]

Thanks

Bod

[George94]

I think there is actually considerable "doubt" surrounding your claim that volunteers reduce the expenditure of CRT.

Where is your evidence?

 

I don't know if your question is serious, but my claim wasn't. I was poking fun at Adam's suggestion that CART's annual expenditure was under £200k, when it is actually around £200 million.

[FadeToScarlet]

So - if your boat moves and you are not guaranteed to have exactly the same spot everytime you moor then - yes - you are paying too much.

Yes, we are exempt from council tax for this reason.

 

We do pay our mooring fee to the council, though, who get all of it and not just the 17% or whatever low figure they get from council tax.

[BruceinSanity]

Its all explained in the VOA link I posted.

Either the 'boat' is classed as a dwelling and hence pays full band A (?) council tax

or

The Moorings are classed as a dwelling and the number of moorers using the moorings have Band A (?) divided by the number of boats in PLM case £1216 divided by 8 boats = £152

 

So - if your boat moves and you are not guaranteed to have exactly the same spot everytime you moor then - yes - you are paying too much.

At the LA's insistence, in Mercia we are going to have the bizarre situation that if as a residential moorer you agree to move your boat every ten months, you will be classed as part of a composite hereditament and only have to pay £150pa extra. If you insist on staying on a dedicated berth, you'll have to pay the full Band A CT at £1000+.

 

There's no logic to it, just the way Derbyshire is enforcing the rules. Most of us will be happy to move (it need only be to the berth next door), but some are upset.

[Alan de Enfield]

At the LA's insistence, in Mercia we are going to have the bizarre situation that if as a residential moorer you agree to move your boat every ten months, you will be classed as part of a composite hereditament and only have to pay £150pa extra. If you insist on staying on a dedicated berth, you'll have to pay the full Band A CT at £1000+.

 

There's no logic to it, just the way Derbyshire is enforcing the rules. Most of us will be happy to move (it need only be to the berth next door), but some are upset.

 

Thats the way the rules are written the LA can only apply the rules.

Its actually 'nice' of them to 'tell' you & give you the option

 

Why would some be upset ?

They only need to move 7 feet sideways to save £1000.

Maybe their hose pipe and land-line are then too short ?

[Hawkmoth]

When we first took a residential mooring at Saltford down on the Avon near Bristol, we were told the same as Bruce, that is, as long as we were able to be moved by the marina, then council tax was not levied.

Bob

[Beaker]

t'otherthe LA's insistence, in Mercia we are going to have the bizarre situation that if as a residential moorer you agree to move your boat every ten months, you will be classed as part of a composite hereditament and only have to pay £150pa extra. If you insist on staying on a dedicated berth, you'll have to pay the full Band A CT at £1000+.

 

There's no logic to it, just the way Derbyshire is enforcing the rules. Most of us will be happy to move (it need only be to the berth next door), but some are upset.

 

Yes, we've agreed to swap berths with Keith on the next berth to us.

Not a problem, apart from remembering to get out t'other side of the boat!

[PaulD]

It's not a charity, please don't propagate this mis-information.

 

It's a charitable trust. Not the same thing at all.

 

 

MtB

Sorry for my innocent mistake. Just seen the other thread on this subject and didn't realise it might lead to WW3.

[PaulG]

 

I don't know if your question is serious, but my claim wasn't. I was poking fun at Adam's suggestion that CART's annual expenditure was under £200k, when it is actually around £200 million.

My question was serious, but having said that, I had failed to detect the humour in your post!

[George94]

My question was serious, but having said that, I had failed to detect the humour in your post!

 

No problem. You are not the first!

Sorry for my innocent mistake. Just seen the other thread on this subject and didn't realise it might lead to WW3.

 

There is a lot of confusion on here about charities. Some people think CART isn't a "normal" charity (whatever that is) and some think that because it's called a trust (it's actually a limited company registered at Companies House) makes it in some unspecified way different from other charities.

 

It's all complete nonsense, of course. CART is a charity like any other, and enjoys all the benefits and restrictions that apply to other registered charities as a consequence of being registered.

[MtB]

Sorry for my innocent mistake. Just seen the other thread on this subject and didn't realise it might lead to WW3.

 

Ah but I mentioned it because in other threads it has already caused a different type of WW3.

 

To some people, the whole point of a 'charity' is to provide assistance to people in need, and if CRT is now a 'charity' their new role must be to use their funds to assist boaters in need (as opposed to maintaining the system).

 

Not an unreasonable expectation, but wrong all the same and encouraged by incorrect labeling of them as a plain 'charity' when they are actually a charitable trust, there to hold the canal system in trust and maintain it for the benefit of the nation.

 

Hence the need to be careful with the terminology.

 

MtB

Edited April 24, 2014 by Mike the Boilerman

[George94]

 

Ah but I mentioned it because in other threads it has already caused a different type of WW3.

 

To some people, the whole point of a 'charity' is to provide assistance to people in need, and if CRT is now a 'charity' their new role must be to use their funds to assist boaters in need (as opposed to maintaining the system).

 

Not an unreasonable expectation, but wrong all the same and encouraged by incorrect labeling of them as a plain 'charity' when they are actually a charitable trust, there to hold the canal system in trust and maintain it for the benefit of the nation.

 

Hence the need to be careful with the terminology.

 

MtB

 

You can see the problem, PaulD. "Some people" apparently think a charity has to give assistance to people in need to be considered a charity. Incredibly, these people appear to be ignorant of the fact that many of the biggest charities (RSPB, RSPCA, National Trust, inter alia) DON'T give assistance to people in need.

 

Another piece of ignorance concerns the word "trust". There is no reason why an organisation having the same legal basis as CART can't give assistance to people in need. This is just a red herring.

[KenK]

 

erm....Im on a residential mooring and I pay almost £1000 a year in Council Tax. Why do the boats at Pillings lock only pay £152/yr ?

 

???

 

am I paying too much?

My council tax for a four bedroom detached house in the south of England is only £1250 a year, I was under the impression all boats were classed as Band A and therefore I would check what a Band A house costs with the local council.

 

Ken

Just Googled Council Tax bands, so much for the sunny south being an expensive place to live.

 

Hampshire Band A £691.92

 

Manchester Band A £919.49

 

Ken