G4YVM Posted November 29, 2013 Report Share Posted November 29, 2013 Quick question: My brother says that if the Pontycyssilt aqueduct iced up it would burst open, destroying it. I say because its open at both ends and the top too, ice will have no damaging effects. Who is right? D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 29, 2013 Report Share Posted November 29, 2013 Has it ever burst open? in all the time it's been open? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtB Posted November 29, 2013 Report Share Posted November 29, 2013 I suspect you are, as I can't believe it has never frozen over! MtB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan_fincher Posted November 29, 2013 Report Share Posted November 29, 2013 (edited) My brother says that if the Pontycyssilt aqueduct iced up it would burst open, destroying it. It has regularly, and it doesn't! Don't think that has much to do with it being open at the ends though! (I assume you meant Pontcysyllte? You seem to have lost an "e", gained an "i" and maybe an extra "s", and then had a general shuffle!) Edited November 29, 2013 by alan_fincher Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenC Posted November 29, 2013 Report Share Posted November 29, 2013 You are! The ice has room to expand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtB Posted November 29, 2013 Report Share Posted November 29, 2013 (I assume you meant Pontcysyllte? You seem to have lost an "e", gaied an "i", then had a general shuffle!) Or if the OP really meant the Pontycyssilt, maybe the ice destroyed it, long ago! MtB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BEngo Posted November 29, 2013 Report Share Posted November 29, 2013 I think that layer of ice on the top is not a problem, but freezing solid might be, especially if the ends froze solid before the middle (highly unlikely.). The other factor is the continuous flow of water from Horseshoe falls will tend to reduce the tendency to freeze. N Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nicknorman Posted November 29, 2013 Report Share Posted November 29, 2013 Yes although there are plenty of other aqueducts that freeze, without a significant flow, and which still seem to be intact!. The ice can expand upwards, and the cast iron troughs are pretty strong, so no problem. Of course ice isn't rigid, it flows (a la glacier)! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alan_fincher Posted November 29, 2013 Report Share Posted November 29, 2013 Also when the water in a lock chamber freezes, it doesn't usually result in the banks exploding, or the bottom gates being forced out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul C Posted November 29, 2013 Report Share Posted November 29, 2013 Ice expands slightly but the cast iron would be able to flex a little if the top layer of ice imparted any sideways forces. So it would not burst. The reason metal pipes can burst if frozen is that they're much smaller cross sectional area, so its possible for much more percentage of that area to freeze solidly, hence greater forces. So in theory, if it got cold enough to solidly freeze the water in the aqueduct, then I suppose its possible to burst it. But I don't think Wales would ever see such harsh conditions to do that (it would need to be a weather extreme such as a polar winter). But then its much thicker than the average pipe. And, its not occurred in the past 200 years or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
furnessvale Posted November 29, 2013 Report Share Posted November 29, 2013 Yes although there are plenty of other aqueducts that freeze, without a significant flow, and which still seem to be intact!. The ice can expand upwards, and the cast iron troughs are pretty strong, so no problem. Of course ice isn't rigid, it flows (a la glacier)! I seem to recall that ice was blamed when Marple aqueduct on the Lower Peak burst a wall. Whether this was in the water channel or between the stone joints I cannot say. George ex nb Alton retired Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 29, 2013 Report Share Posted November 29, 2013 (edited) Ice expands slightly but the cast iron would be able to flex a little if the top layer of ice imparted any sideways forces. So it would not burst. The reason metal pipes can burst if frozen is that they're much smaller cross sectional area, so its possible for much more percentage of that area to freeze solidly, hence greater forces. So in theory, if it got cold enough to solidly freeze the water in the aqueduct, then I suppose its possible to burst it. But I don't think Wales would ever see such harsh conditions to do that (it would need to be a weather extreme such as a polar winter). But then its much thicker than the average pipe. And, its not occurred in the past 200 years or so. But isn't the major difference ice in a small bore pipe is completely enclosed, when it expands it has now where to go once it freezes a long it's length and therefore splits the pipe or pushes off the connectors in some cases. IF the trough on a steel aqueduct froze completely solid surely the resulting hydraulic forces exerted by the expansion would take the path of least resistance ie upwards?? Edited November 29, 2013 by The Dog House Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtB Posted November 29, 2013 Report Share Posted November 29, 2013 Also when the water in a lock chamber freezes, it doesn't usually result in the banks exploding, or the bottom gates being forced out. It would certainly explain why some narrow locks are 18" wider than my boat though MtB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sassan Posted November 29, 2013 Report Share Posted November 29, 2013 Ice expands slightly but the cast iron would be able to flex a little if the top layer of ice imparted any sideways forces. So it would not burst. The reason metal pipes can burst if frozen is that they're much smaller cross sectional area, so its possible for much more percentage of that area to freeze solidly, hence greater forces. So in theory, if it got cold enough to solidly freeze the water in the aqueduct, then I suppose its possible to burst it. But I don't think Wales would ever see such harsh conditions to do that (it would need to be a weather extreme such as a polar winter). But then its much thicker than the average pipe. And, its not occurred in the past 200 years or so. Ice doesn't just expand in every direction. The water slowly increases in volume as ice crystals form, it's a gradual process. It only exerts pressure in a sealed environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul C Posted November 29, 2013 Report Share Posted November 29, 2013 But isn't the major difference ice in a small bore pipe is completely enclosed, when it expands it has now where to go once it freezes a long it's length and therefore splits the pipe or pushes off the connectors in some cases. IF the trough on a steel aqueduct froze completely solid surely the resulting hydraulic forces exerted by the expansion would take the path of least resistance ie upwards?? Yeah possibly, who knows? Its not going to get cold enough to freeze completely, and it seems to cope already with the freezing that occurs in cold winters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graham Davis Posted November 29, 2013 Report Share Posted November 29, 2013 We had a wooden half barrel water feature in the garden and 2 years ago that froze solid (killed the gold fish) but it didn't split. Just the upper level of the ice was slightly higher than the normal water level. Therefore i see no reason why the Aquaduct would split. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
system 4-50 Posted November 29, 2013 Report Share Posted November 29, 2013 Ice expands slightly but the cast iron would be able to flex a little if the top layer of ice imparted any sideways forces. So it would not burst. The reason metal pipes can burst if frozen is that they're much smaller cross sectional area, so its possible for much more percentage of that area to freeze solidly, hence greater forces. So in theory, if it got cold enough to solidly freeze the water in the aqueduct, then I suppose its possible to burst it. But I don't think Wales would ever see such harsh conditions to do that (it would need to be a weather extreme such as a polar winter). But then its much thicker than the average pipe. And, its not occurred in the past 200 years or so. but it did only 12,000 years ago…. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G4YVM Posted November 29, 2013 Author Report Share Posted November 29, 2013 Thank you all. Sorry for miss-spelling the old girls name too. D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtB Posted December 2, 2013 Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 Thank you all. Sorry for miss-spelling the old girls name too. D At least you didn't spell it "aqua duck" as I see once in a while! MtB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Ambrose Posted December 2, 2013 Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 We had a wooden half barrel water feature in the garden and 2 years ago that froze solid (killed the gold fish) but it didn't split. Just the upper level of the ice was slightly higher than the normal water level. Therefore i see no reason why the Aquaduct would split. During my time as a milkman it occurred from time to time that the milk would freeze and this pushed a plug of milk up out of the top of the bottle. People sometimes complained "Hey Milko my milk is frozen" as if I could do anything about the weather. My stock reply was "Yes missus so am I" Phil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nb Innisfree Posted December 2, 2013 Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 (edited) During my time as a milkman it occurred from time to time that the milk would freeze and this pushed a plug of milk up out of the top of the bottle. People sometimes complained "Hey Milko my milk is frozen" as if I could do anything about the weather. My stock reply was "Yes missus so am I" Phil Did you ever get a warming up offer? Go on, tell us. Edit for typo. Edited December 2, 2013 by nb Innisfree Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chop! Posted December 2, 2013 Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 Thank you all. Sorry for miss-spelling the old girls name too. D Actually it was for many years known as Pont (bridge) y (the) Cysyllt (connection, link, junction) I still call it Pontycysyllt as do most other Welsh speakers that I know. Felly paid a becso! (so don't worry!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Ambrose Posted December 2, 2013 Report Share Posted December 2, 2013 Did you ever get a warming up offer? Go on, tell us. Edit for typo. Er um er a Milkman never tells, what happens on the milkround stays on the milkroundPhil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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