RCD?

[Bettie Boo]

Tony / dor / Keith & Keith M;

 

Thank you for taking the time to respond and sharing your thoughts & knowledge & suggested sites/links to visit. I've read all your posts and am just about to go back and reread them so I get the most from them.

 

Sorry I should have made my understand clearer, in my description of the "trades" people involved in the kit out of the boat. The seller has "told" me he is a plumber by trade, and has done a lot of work/favours for the boat yard where he completed the fit out. His "mates", the sparkie & chippy both work at the boat yard fitting out boats as full time jobs. If it's a reputable boat yard, I would "hope?" they only employ qualified people to do their fit out. Again, something else we better to check into.

 

Please keep sending advise / experiences / suggestions, our steep learning curve continues.

 

Ta

 

B~

[ditchcrawler]

 

21) licence runs out end of November but will be renewed for next 12 months and also has a CE number which will be stamped on the boat. Won't the CaRT licence need to be sorted out by us as I was under the impression that they are not transferable from seller to buyer? Have I misunderstood that?

 

 

How can it be CE marked without an RCD registration

[dor]

Tony / dor / Keith & Keith M;

 

Thank you for taking the time to respond and sharing your thoughts & knowledge & suggested sites/links to visit. I've read all your posts and am just about to go back and reread them so I get the most from them.

 

Sorry I should have made my understand clearer, in my description of the "trades" people involved in the kit out of the boat. The seller has "told" me he is a plumber by trade, and has done a lot of work/favours for the boat yard where he completed the fit out. His "mates", the sparkie & chippy both work at the boat yard fitting out boats as full time jobs. If it's a reputable boat yard, I would "hope?" they only employ qualified people to do their fit out. Again, something else we better to check into.

 

Please keep sending advise / experiences / suggestions, our steep learning curve continues.

 

Ta

 

B~

To me there is too many steaming piles that have come out of the back end of a bovine in the seller's responses. He appears to give half a story and when challenged it "oh it's ok, they are/it is ok because ...

 

Yet he is trying to sell it illegally.

I don't know any boatyard that let's its employees do foreigners on boats in their marina.

It is now CE marked but doesn't have an RCD.

The gas has been fitted by persons unknown with no checking or certification.

It apparently "may" have a boat safety certificate but one that is only issued to self-builders. What's one of those then? A BSC is a BSC, no special certificate for self-builders.

 

How much bull shit are you prepared to listen to before you decide that maybe it's not worth travelling the length of the country to have a look?

[raymondh]

Hi BB,

No getting past the fact that it is illegal to sell on a self build untill at least five years has passed since the boat was

completed

Also a self build that is not RCD registered can not have a genuine CE number on the required CE plate

 

I would check your legal position if you knowingly are complicit in a criminal offence

 

Good Luck

[raymondh]

Hi again BB

Below a link to a doc that explains all you need to know and agree with any seller that the boat is fit for sale

 

http://www.rya.org.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/technical/Web%20Documents/RCD%20Documents/1%20RCD%20Compliance%20Guide.pdf

 

Good Luck

[blackrose]

We need qualified legal opinion on the point about selling after 5 years with no RCD.

 

Qualified legal opinion? Give me a break...

 

Yes, you can sell a boat without an RCD after 5 years I thought that was common knowledge?

Regardless of legalities, I would be asking WHY its being sold without one? Self build laziness? Lack of knowledge? Noncompliance? Either way, none of them would be a good sign for the safety of you and the boat.

 

Generally it happens because either someone didn't know the law when they bought the boat as a sailaway and then want to sell it, or because they planned to go down the BSS route but their circumstances changed and they now have to sell it.

 

I'm assuming that the boat does have a BSC? In which case the lack of an RCD has no implications for anyone's safety.

 

The whole idea of this 5 year period was to allow owners of sailaways to fit-out their own boat without having to CE mark the boat (according to the RCD), while at the same time preventing professional builders/fitters from circumventing the RCD rules. So self-fit owners don't have to CE mark their boat if they don't want to as long as they don't sell it within 5 years and get a BSC after the first year. After that they can just get BSCs every 4 years the same as everyone else.

And the vendor is still avoiding the Annex (X - is it D Tim?) declaration of hull conformity. Without it I think it would be very difficult to get it RCD certified.

 

Annex 3 Declaration of Conformity.

Edited November 14, 2013 by blackrose

[alan_fincher]

I'm assuming that the boat does have a BSC? In which case the lack of an RCD has no implications for anyone's safety.

 

Not really, it seems, even by the vendors measure......

 

20)I can't find the boat safety certificate at home think it may be on the boat, they usually last for 5 yr, but in any case the boat will require a full safety certificate for a sale to take place, as the one I have is for self builders and not suitable for the purpose of sale. The cost of this would be down to me.

 

 

(Whatever that was supposed to mean!).

 

If I were "Bettie Boo", as far as this boat goes I would go for the sentence that has "touch" "barge-pole" and "not" in it!

[David Mack]

All good advice in relation to this particular boat and vendor, but I'm not sure the legal position is correct.

 

The RCD is one of a host of EU regulations relating to the sale of manufactured products. As such I thought it only applied to goods when first placed on the EU market. So when a boat is first put on the market it must comply with the RCD, with the sole exception of a self-built boat which is more than 5 years old. It is the vendor (and not the purchaser) who is committing an offence if this is not the case. Any subsequent sale is outside the scope of the RCD, and so legal whether or not the boat complies (or ever complied) with the RCD. That's not to say you shouldn't be suspicious of a boat without paperwork - just that I don't think any law is necessarily being broken, and of course you may have more difficulty when you want to sell the boat on.

 

By the same token, if you approach the owner of a self-built boat less than 5 years old with an offer he can't refuse, then again the sale is legal, because the boat, although sold, was never "put on the EU market".

[blackrose]

Since there is no shortage of widebeams on sale legally, why would anyone even consider an illegal sale? It would have to be cheap I suppose...

It is the vendor (and not the purchaser) who is committing an offence if this is not the case. Any subsequent sale is outside the scope of the RCD, and so legal whether or not the boat complies (or ever complied) with the RCD. That's not to say you shouldn't be suspicious of a boat without paperwork - just that I don't think any law is necessarily being broken, and of course you may have more difficulty when you want to sell the boat on.

 

I thought you said the law was being broken by the vendor?

Edited November 14, 2013 by blackrose

[MtB]

There are plenty of people about who don't give a damn about whether a boat has RCD certification or not. A good boat is a good boat whatever the paperwork and some people just want to buy a good boat.

 

[rant]

 

All this RCD rubbish is the result of middle class home owners imposing their own home-buying expectations and standard onto the boat building industry. It needs ignoring BIG TIME.

 

[/rant]

 

MtB

[Bee]

My heart agrees with mike the boilerman Nobody knows what the construction requirements are so its worse than useless. My guess is that builders build to the BSS, make some kind of basic manual, say it complies and label it as such. At least you can check the BSS,

[Charlotte Burnett]

I'll just leave this here

 

http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/sectors/maritime/files/regulatory/cc_guide_cons20feb2008_en.pdf

 

Enjoy your bed time reading!

[dmr]

There are plenty of people about who don't give a damn about whether a boat has RCD certification or not. A good boat is a good boat whatever the paperwork and some people just want to buy a good boat.

 

[rant]

 

All this RCD rubbish is the result of middle class home owners imposing their own home-buying expectations and standard onto the boat building industry. It needs ignoring BIG TIME.

 

[/rant]

 

MtB

 

Although I agree 100% with the sentiments behind this rant, which I assume contains a bit of wine or beer, I am not really sure its the middle class homeowners who are behind all this, surely its the European bureaucrats???, though of course they might also be middle class and homeowners.

Have a greeny anyway.

 

Hope we never have to get those energy performance certificates for our boats, we've only got polystyrene insulation so we'd be stuffed.

 

......Dave

[dmr]

I'll just leave this here

 

http://ec.europa.eu/enterprise/sectors/maritime/files/regulatory/cc_guide_cons20feb2008_en.pdf

 

Enjoy your bed time reading!

 

I have skimmed through this. Its gobbledygook, presumably written by a big EEC committee after many all expenses paid extended alcoholic lunch breaks (and I speak with some real experience here).

Someone on this forum said "if you choose a boatbuilder who is a nice bloke you will get a good friend and a bad boat".

I reckon if you choose a boatbulder who understands this stuff you will get a very peculiar friend, and probably a bad boat!

 

.............Dave

[MtB]

 

Although I agree 100% with the sentiments behind this rant, which I assume contains a bit of wine or beer, I am not really sure its the middle class homeowners who are behind all this, surely its the European bureaucrats???, though of course they might also be middle class and homeowners.

Have a greeny anyway.

 

Hope we never have to get those energy performance certificates for our boats, we've only got polystyrene insulation so we'd be stuffed.

 

......Dave

 

Yes. Chateau Monbazillac 2003.

 

And fanx for the greenies!

 

 

MtB

P.S. bought for me by a happy customer

[Teadaemon]

There are plenty of people about who don't give a damn about whether a boat has RCD certification or not. A good boat is a good boat whatever the paperwork and some people just want to buy a good boat.

 

[rant]

 

All this RCD rubbish is the result of middle class home owners imposing their own home-buying expectations and standard onto the boat building industry. It needs ignoring BIG TIME.

 

[/rant]

 

MtB

 

Actually, it's the result of the marine industry wanting a level playing field to sell their boats across Europe. The situation in the UK prior to the introduction of the RCD was actually quite unusual in that there was no regulation whatsoever (apart from the Sale of Goods Act). Most other countries in the EU had various standards that needed to be complied with (certainly in some it was actually illegal to use or sell a boat that hadn't had it's design signed off by a qualified naval architect), and anyone who wanted to sell boats in these countries had to make sure they complied with all of the various standards, some of which were quite different, if not actually mutually exclusive.

 

Admittedly what we've ended up with isn't the greatest of systems, especially from the point of view of somebody who just wants to fit out a narrowboat, but it saves a lot of time and effort (and therefore money) for the larger boatbuilding companies like Beneteau or Sunseeker.

[Radiomariner]

Hi All,

 

Very informative thread, below are the comments I received from the gentleman who owns the boat we are going to look at this Saturday, (just a couple of answers to a long list of questions I asked him before making the trip up north)

 

Do they "hold water" (sorry, bad pun)?

 

20)I can't find the boat safety certificate at home think it may be on the boat, they usually last for 5 yr, but in any case the boat will require a full safety certificate for a sale to take place, as the one I have is for self builders and not suitable for the purpose of sale. The cost of this would be down to me.

I thought a BSS was good for 4 years? but all the same is it correct that he (the owner/fitter) will be able to get the BSS (assuming the boat complies with the Safety requirements)?

21) licence runs out end of November but will be renewed for next 12 months and also has a CE number which will be stamped on the boat. Won't the CaRT licence need to be sorted out by us as I was under the impression that they are not transferable from seller to buyer? Have I misunderstood that?

 

Little more info.....the seller had the hull built at a boatyard as a sailaway for himself and his partner in 2010, finished the internal fit out himself being a qualified tradesman, along with the help of mates who were also "qualified sparkie & chippy" no idea who did the gas fittings at this point, but will be sure to find out. I believe the fit out was completed in 2011/2012, in time for the 2012 "season".

 

Does it "sound" like he's in a position to sell this boat legally?

 

Regards,

 

B~

 

 

 

The BSS is of 4 year duration. However, as a BSS examiner I am advised that when a boat of less than five years age does not have a full RCD (CE Marking], I should ask the owner to sign a declaration that he does not intend to sell the boat until it is 5 years old. I see a lot of 4 year old "sail aways" who happily sign such a declaration if they do not sign I do not do the BSS Examination. It covers my backside.

How can it be CE marked without an RCD registration

Legally it.can't.

Many modern boats do have the CE symbol with a number stamped on or plate attached to the fuel tank, and believe that is evidence of RCD compliance, it is not, it Means the tank only is compliant.

Also, self Regulating is a farce. Most builders do it properly by the book, others just fill in the forms and send them in to get the RCD documentation without the boat being anywhere near complient.

 

 

 

Yes, you can sell a boat without an RCD after 5 years I thought that was common knowledge?

 

Generally it happens because either someone didn't know the law when they bought the boat as a sailaway and then want to sell it, or because they planned to go down the BSS route but their circumstances changed and they now have to sell it.

 

I'm assuming that the boat does have a BSC? In which case the lack of an RCD has no implications for anyone's safety.

 

The whole idea of this 5 year period was to allow owners of sailaways to fit-out their own boat without having to CE mark the boat (according to the RCD), while at the same time preventing professional builders/fitters from circumventing the RCD rules. So self-fit owners don't have to CE mark their boat if they don't want to as long as they don't sell it within 5 years and get a BSC after the first year. After that they can just get BSCs every 4 years the same as everyone else.

 

Annex 3 Declaration of Conformity.

If the boat of less than five years is BSS compliant and is not registered as RCD compliant then the owner should have signed a declaration for the BSS examiner agreeing not to sell the boat before it was 5 years old. Agreed,the boat is safe (To minimum third party standards) but not legal. To the unwary the certificate may seem to "ok" the boat as being fully compliant to the RCD.(For instance the BSS does not check for stability, or the quality of materials used) thus undermining the market.. The vendor is not likely to tell the buyer that he has signed such a declaration!

All good advice in relation to this particular boat and vendor, but I'm not sure the legal position is correct.

 

The RCD is one of a host of EU regulations relating to the sale of manufactured products. As such I thought it only applied to goods when first placed on the EU market. So when a boat is first put on the market it must comply with the RCD, with the sole exception of a self-built boat which is more than 5 years old. It is the vendor (and not the purchaser) who is committing an offence if this is not the case. Any subsequent sale is outside the scope of the RCD, and so legal whether or not the boat complies (or ever complied) with the RCD. That's not to say you shouldn't be suspicious of a boat without paperwork - just that I don't think any law is necessarily being broken, and of course you may have more difficulty when you want to sell the boat on.

 

By the same token, if you approach the owner of a self-built boat less than 5 years old with an offer he can't refuse, then again the sale is legal, because the boat, although sold, was never "put on the EU market".

Not quite right. The EU lays down this 5 year issue. It more or less means that if you sell a boat that is under five years old it must be compliant to the state of build at the time of sale. The buyer should beware that the sale may be illegal and the possibility that the boat be taken away.

I believe the most common "legal" way around this issue when the boat is unfinished, is for the buyer/or seller declare him/herself as a boat builder or fitter and issue a new annex3. I am not sure but that may mean that a further five years may elapse before the next sale.

 

With regard to the last comment I think that if it came to light the authorities may be considered to be collusion to deceit.

 

There are plenty of people about who don't give a damn about whether a boat has RCD certification or not. A good boat is a good boat whatever the paperwork and some people just want to buy a good boat.

 

[rant]

 

All this RCD rubbish is the result of middle class home owners imposing their own home-buying expectations and standard onto the boat building industry. It needs ignoring BIG TIME.

 

[/rant]

 

MtB

I agree with your sentiment. Bad analogy though, the whole RCD is about importing and exporting boats. Not many house builders sell their completed houses abroad! However I do not see why class "D" boats designed for use on internal waterways could not be exempt unless they are intended to be sent abroad. However I fear that would generate a further load of regulation exemptions!!! (Exemptions from regulations often being more complex than the regulations themselves)

 

My heart agrees with mike the boilerman Nobody knows what the construction requirements are so its worse than useless. My guess is that builders build to the BSS, make some kind of basic manual, say it complies and label it as such. At least you can check the BSS,

My heart sympathises with Mike too. However, as a BSS examiner it would be improper of me to agree with anyone encouraging others to perhaps break any laws! .

[David Mack]

Since there is no shortage of widebeams on sale legally, why would anyone even consider an illegal sale? It would have to be cheap I suppose...

 

 

I thought you said the law was being broken by the vendor?

The law would be broken in the case of the first sale, but not for any subsequent sale.

[Keith M]

Tony / dor / Keith & Keith M;

 

Thank you for taking the time to respond and sharing your thoughts & knowledge & suggested sites/links to visit. I've read all your posts and am just about to go back and reread them so I get the most from them.

 

Sorry I should have made my understand clearer, in my description of the "trades" people involved in the kit out of the boat. The seller has "told" me he is a plumber by trade, and has done a lot of work/favours for the boat yard where he completed the fit out. His "mates", the sparkie & chippy both work at the boat yard fitting out boats as full time jobs. If it's a reputable boat yard, I would "hope?" they only employ qualified people to do their fit out. Again, something else we better to check into.

 

Please keep sending advise / experiences / suggestions, our steep learning curve continues.

 

Ta

 

B~

 

 

Hi

Part of my work is conducting independent electrical surveys

Just because a person works for a boat builder does not mean that they are competent at what they do

I have just conducted an inspection and found some of the worst work that I have every seen this was a so called reputable boat yard

 

Keith

Edited November 15, 2013 by Keith M

[Ally]

On the self certification point, yes, builders can self certify, however, any builder who is a member of the Canal Boat Builders assoc. now has to not only produce an RCD (including the Annexe 111a) but also has to produce a BSS certificate, meaning it also has to be inspected by a BSS examiner.

Whilst there are certainly builders out there who build, self certify to RCD, when the boat may not be fully compliant (more fool them) at least with a CBA member, you at least have the assurance of the safety of a BSS certificate aswell. In reality, it shouldn't be needed, all boats should be built compliant, sadly they are not always. The CBA are now also looking at further certification that will strengthen their members proof of compliance independently.

Not fully relevant to the OP but as it came up............

[sassan]

My (unqualified) advice is this:

Before proceeding at all, insist upon current BSS and certification of the gas systems (the BSS is not sufficient).

THEN, if these are both in order, get a surveyor. Have a FULL survey done by a well reputed surveyor.

THEN, if this goes ok, still insist on a heavily discounted price due to the lack of RCD. (A surveyor will be able to tell you what a "heavily discounted price" should look like).

 

You can pretty much ignore the people prophesying doom and gloom on the legal stuff.

 

Responsibility lies with the company or person first placing the product on the European market. The Directive is only enforced once during the life of the craft i.e. at the first point of sale on the transfer of ownership.

 

Therefore, you are not committing any crime by buying the boat, and you would not be committing one by subsequently selling the boat, even if within 5 years of completion (although be aware that any future buyer within this period will probably also be after a heavy discount).

 

To summarise, do everything you can to make sure the boat is safe before hiring a surveyor (to avoid wasting your money), then listen carefully to the surveyor's opinion, offer a low price on the boat.

[Ally]

oh, and without an RCD there is not a CE mark

[dmr]

I have just made a very interesting observation................

 

There is a real polarisation of views on this subject and all of those who are at the "don't worry too much about the RCD" extreme come from the K&A.

 

..............Dave

[bottle]

I think I am right, a BSS certificate can be issued for any boat to any state of build, ie: if it is not fitted it does not come into the certificate.

 

For instance my boat has never had a test for gas because there is none.

 

I also believe that the self fitter has to have a BSS to state of build to be able to licence the boat.

 

Just like the MOT for cars, it complies at the time of test but may not now.

 

Betty Boo, some one else said it and the more this goes on, the more I think you should walk away.

 

I wish you well and hope you get the right boat.

[Bee]

The self fitter and self certifier does not need a BSS to licence the boat, it is exactly the same as one issued by a `proper` boatbuilder

Ally, I did not realise that if a builder is a member of the Canal Boat Builders association that you have to produce a BSS as well but in a way it reinforces my biggest gripe about that spawn of the devil, namely the RCD, which is, what is the point of the thing and, a separate question, what in the name of blue blazes are the requirements? ...... Breathe out ..... and relax!

Edited November 15, 2013 by Bee