Diesel bug again - bleeding barrus shire and mixing fuel additives?

[Doubleh]

We've just become the proud owners of a new-to-us 65' by 12' narrowboat style widebeam. She may not be much to look at but is a big step up in living space from our 60' narrowboat that had been our home for almost 2 years.

 

I've had plenty of experience of diesel bug so turned up to collect her from reading with a bottle of fuel set and 2 spare primary filters just in case, being particularly aware of the risk as we are taking her onto the thames to brentford so may see problems that hadn't been evident on the canals.

 

Sure enough we have been through 2 filters in 3 days, in each case changing after the engine stalled every time it was put into neutral. The first filter had large black flakes in it, the second had smaller pieces but the pores of the filter were clogged. I found a half bottle of fuel set on board that the previous owner had used, and put this in when we refuelled; based on the amount the tank took I think it must have been close to empty when we got it.

 

The engine is a barrus shire 65 and the instructions are split between barrus and yanmar instruction books, neither of which are very clear on the procedure for bleeding. They mention having an electric fuel pump and being self bleeding, but also say bleeding shouldn't be attempted with less than 3/4 full tank which I take to imply gravity feeding the primary. When I refitted the primary and opened the bleed screw no fuel fed into it under gravity; I confirmed this by opening the drain screw of the water trap whilst the bleed screw was open. I then tried turning the key to 1st position with bleed screw open to operate the lift pump; again no diesel came into the filter.

 

After this I attempted to partially fill the filter bowl from a squeezy bottle via the top screw and think it was probably about half full. I ranked the engine and it started within a couple of seconds and didn't miss a beat. So it looks like I have a procedure that works but its damned diddly filling the filter through the top and I'm sure there's an easier way! So does anyone know:

 

1. Should the primary fill itself under gravity when I open the bleed screw if the level of fuel is high enough?

 

2. Does it just not matter whether there is fuel in the primary before I start the engine? Can I just change it and crank away and the engine will bleed all the air out?

 

3. In the past I've had mixed results with fuel set and better with marine 16, but fuel set is what was used previously and what I could get. As i understand it marine 16 is a biocide which kills the bugs, whilst fuel set disperses the water and bug deposit into the fuel so it can pass the filter. Is there value in adding some marine 16 as well as the fuel set to get the best of both, or will they interact somehow causing problem? Would I be better just doubling up on the dose of fuel set?

 

Appreciate any input, thanks

[RichLech]

My Barrus Shire 45 (05 Model) has an electric pump. After filter changes all you need to do is turn on the ignition and you can hear the electric pump ticking while it fills the primary filter. Then you can just bleed using the bleed bolt on top of the primary filter. The engine will then start after a few seconds turning.

 

I realise mine is a different size engine but I would have thought they would have used the same system throughout their range. I think you need to establish whether or not you have an electric pump. If you have it seems it may not be functioning. If you haven't and the system does rely on gravity, it sounds as though you may have stirred up a load of cr*p in the bottom of your tank.

 

 

[RichLech]

Just looked at the manual for the 65 (06 model) online and it describes exactly the same system/bleed process as my 45. I have copied a couple of paragraphs below. So, at least you know the 06 model has an electric pump.

 

13. Fuel

· Ensure the main fuel tank is clear of dirt & water.

· A separate water trap is strongly advised. (The engine is supplied with a small water

trap as standard).

· Connect fuel feed and return hoses from engine to main fuel tank via supply and

return lines. Ensure that they are connected the correct way around.

· Shire 65 – connect the inlet to the electric fuel pump inlet hose.

· Shire 90 – connect to the inlet to the primary fuel filter inlet hose.

· The fuel supply and return hoses are fitted with 10mm (3/8”) hose tails.

 

Initially fill the fuel system loosening the bleed bolt on the top of the primary fuel

filter/water trap. For Shire 65, turn on the ignition to operate the electric fuel pump.

For Shire 90, pump the primer on the primary filter. Close when fuel begins to flow

clearly (no bubbles). It is rarely necessary to bleed the injection pump or injectors

upon installation as the engine will already have fuel in it from the engine run-in and

test procedure.

 

[Captain Fizz]

Either way, it would seem prudent to clean out the tank thoroughly. From what you say, it does indeed sound as if you have stirred up a load of crap which would be the case if you were filling from virtually empty.

This is probably be an instance when fuel polishing will be beneficial.

[David Schweizer]

It is my understanding that diesel bug thrives on water moisture which is caused by condenstion building up in a half empty fuel tank, and that by keeping the fuel tank full you minimise the risk.

 

I keep the tanks on our boat topped up regularly and dose the fuel with fuel set, so far we have not had a problem. Of course what you cannot guarantee is that the supplier keeps their tanks full therefore minimising the risk of water in the fuel.

[Bobbybass]

With this pollution, the pickup pipe is probably blocked in the tank.

 

I had this problem...expecting the fuel to flow under gravity..but it didn't.

I removed the tank pipe from the filter..attached some flexible hose..and blew it..and then the fuel flowed freely.

You need to completely clean the tank...

 

Last time I had this..it wasn't 'bug' but I filled up at Banbury...and the fuel came with some nice black 'soot' in it !

Edited October 22, 2013 by Bobbybass

[Captain Fizz]

And this is the difficulty.

When you buy fuel, you have no idea how it has been stored and how clean it is.

Probably the yards that have a hire fleet have pretty fresh fuel due to high turnover, but it really is a bit of a lottery.

[Bobbybass]

And this is the difficulty.

When you buy fuel, you have no idea how it has been stored and how clean it is.

Probably the yards that have a hire fleet have pretty fresh fuel due to high turnover, but it really is a bit of a lottery.

I found that the funnel with built in 'seive' was a good investment. Even if the bits will pass through the seive....you can spot any pollution up against the orange of the funnel.

 

You don't have to pump the whole 'hundreds of litres' through it...but if you do a couple of gallons and its clean...you can assume the rest is OK. If there are 'bits' you can give a piece of your mind...(tell us all here on the forum)...and leave.

[peterboat]

My Barrus Shire 45 (05 Model) has an electric pump. After filter changes all you need to do is turn on the ignition and you can hear the electric pump ticking while it fills the primary filter. Then you can just bleed using the bleed bolt on top of the primary filter. The engine will then start after a few seconds turning.

 

I realise mine is a different size engine but I would have thought they would have used the same system throughout their range. I think you need to establish whether or not you have an electric pump. If you have it seems it may not be functioning. If you haven't and the system does rely on gravity, it sounds as though you may have stirred up a load of cr*p in the bottom of your tank.

 

 

Yes mine is the same only problem is their ia no filter before the electric lift pump so they can get blocked!!

 

Peter

[bizzard]

Reviving one of my old wheezes which didn't receive much enthusiasm at the time.

A cartridge type micro fuel filter with its top hole blocked up and stuck down into the cone of a large funnel will filter the fuel beautifully. I have made one and its surprising the muck it stops from fuel which is supposedly clean, fresh from a supplier.

[Guest]

Reviving one of my old wheezes which didn't receive much enthusiasm at the time.

A cartridge type micro fuel filter with its top hole blocked up and stuck down into the cone of a large funnel will filter the fuel beautifully. I have made one and its surprising the muck it stops from fuel which is supposedly clean, fresh from a supplier.

Interesting, did you silicone the filter in place?

[bizzard]

Interesting, did you silicone the filter in place?

Yes I did, just the ordinary cheap clear stuff. I tested it first to see if their was any reaction by squirting a dollop into a pot and pouring diesel over it and left it for a few days, no reaction at all. The fuel filter cartridge that I use is the small cheap Fram C11941 PL same as my engine.

[wirren]

Hi, as I ve mentioned before I use one of these, doesn't let water through, excellent product comes in various sizes -http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mr-Funnel-Orange-F8NCO-Fuel-Filter-Petrol-Diesel-Heating-Oil-Kerosene-/190890269327?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_BoatEquipment_Accessories_SM&hash=item2c71f25a8f

 

Mark

[Grace and Favour]

Reviving one of my old wheezes which didn't receive much enthusiasm at the time.

A cartridge type micro fuel filter with its top hole blocked up and stuck down into the cone of a large funnel will filter the fuel beautifully. I have made one and its surprising the muck it stops from fuel which is supposedly clean, fresh from a supplier.

 

 

Yes I did, just the ordinary cheap clear stuff. I tested it first to see if their was any reaction by squirting a dollop into a pot and pouring diesel over it and left it for a few days, no reaction at all. The fuel filter cartridge that I use is the small cheap Fram C11941 PL same as my engine.

I presume it copes with the delivery rate from diesel pumps - - (or do you have to hand fill), Biz?

[bizzard]

 

 

I presume it copes with the delivery rate from diesel pumps - - (or do you have to hand fill), Biz?

I usually fill from 20litre jerry cans.

[dmr]

Where are you now and are you sorted out?

We are at Henley on Thames and heading up the Kennet tomorrow or the day after. I have a bottle of Marine16 that I could sell you (for whatever it will cost me to replace it).

If you have diesel bug then a big dose of Marine 16 is probably the way to go (plus a fuel polish if you can find someone to do it).

Fuel Set might (MIGHT) help to prevent bug but I doubt if it will cure it once you have it.

Can you get a load more filters and change them every morning till things are sorted?.

The Thames is very gentle at present, though has maybe picked up just a little in the last day or two, but it would be really good to be sorted before you go beyond Teddington!

 

..........Dave

[KJT]

We have fitted one of the MLS filter/separators and it seems to do a very good job of removing just about everything from the fuel. It is placed inline between the tank and the primary filter and removes contaminants by spinning the fuel into a vortex and separating them out into a collector bowl, which can be easily drained off using the integral tap. Since fitting it our primary filter has remained in pristine condition, although we do still change them annually. There are no moving parts and the only thing that consumes power is the 'filter clogged' warning light, if fitted. We don't have that option as it wasn't available when we purchased ours three years ago.

 

I did suffer from a tankful of dirty fuel once and it dealt with that very effectively.

I have no connection with company other than as a satisfied customer.

 

Their web site: www.mlsystem.co.uk

 

Ken

Edited October 24, 2013 by NB Ellisiana

[Doubleh]

Thanks all for the helpful comments and very kind offers of assistance. We did indeed decide to go with the approach of changing every day, fortunately the filters are the cheap Lucas cartridge type so not too painful on the wallet. The multiple changes provided an opportunity for experimentation, and showed that after we had brimmed the tank the filter would slowly fill under gravity with the bleed screw cracked. It does indeed have the electric lift pump although this doesn't seem to make too much difference to the rate of filling.

 

Anyway we made it off the river at Brentford yesterday morning without incident and are nearly home & dry. Once back I'll get some marine 16 to kill anything in there and keep the tank topped up through the winter.

 

Ellisiana, the separator looks interesting but they don't appear to have any prices on their website, would it be rude to ask what it set you back?

 

Thanks again all

[Tony Brooks]

Just remember the CAV/Delphi sedimentor type SS-W also uses a vortex to separate the larger globs of water and dirt from the fuel. I suspect it will be cheaper than the Misystem one mentioned. However to get near 100% of the dirt and water out it should be followed by an agglomerator (the engine filter is an agglomerator). CAV type FAS will do. Ensure both have metal bowls and buy metal drain plugs for BSS reasons.

 

Check prices at your local Diesel Injection Equipment Specialists.

[RichLech]

MLS prices

 

http://landauuk.com/news/6/20/MLS-Fuel-Purifier

[KJT]

Thanks all for the helpful comments and very kind offers of assistance.

 

Ellisiana, the separator looks interesting but they don't appear to have any prices on their website, would it be rude to ask what it set you back?

Thanks again all

Certainly! From memory it was around the £200 mark. That was just for the unit. Fitting is extra, but was very straightforward. It was certainly a lot cheaper than that indicated in the link in the previous post. MLS had a stand at the London Boat Show and had them on offer.

 

Ken

Edited October 25, 2013 by NB Ellisiana

[Bod]

Thanks all for the helpful comments and very kind offers of assistance. We did indeed decide to go with the approach of changing every day, fortunately the filters are the cheap Lucas cartridge type so not too painful on the wallet. The multiple changes provided an opportunity for experimentation, and showed that after we had brimmed the tank the filter would slowly fill under gravity with the bleed screw cracked. It does indeed have the electric lift pump although this doesn't seem to make too much difference to the rate of filling.

 

Anyway we made it off the river at Brentford yesterday morning without incident and are nearly home & dry. Once back I'll get some marine 16 to kill anything in there and keep the tank topped up through the winter.

 

Ellisiana, the separator looks interesting but they don't appear to have any prices on their website, would it be rude to ask what it set you back?

 

Thanks again all

Have you changed the small filter in the electric pump?

This pump should produce a noticeable flow of fuel.

 

Bod

[Doubleh]

Ellisiana - thanks for that, will look out for them at the show this year

 

Bod - no I wasn't aware there is a filter in the lift pump, but it makes sense as it seemed strange to have it before the primary. There has been visible crud in the primary each time we've changed it but I have wondered whether there is a partial blockage elsewhere contributing to the problems recurring so frequently. Now we're safely home I'm going to change the secondary too, so will look at the pump as well.

[colin stone]

Condensation in fuel is a bit of a myth. Unless you have really hugh air vent pipes, there is just not sufficient air movement to bring a decent amount of moisture into a tank.

 

www.yachtsurvey.com/myth_of_condensation_in_fuel_tanks.htm

 

I have some pretty big tanks and one has been around half full for the last 3 years. Not a drop of water in the tank with a 38mm air vent.

 

I use Racor 500MA (BSS compliant) fuel filters with a clear bowl so one can see exactly what is coming out of the tank. Unit has a turbine action to first spin out water and rubbish and then filter above. After 2 years with them, nothing in the bowls.

 

Plus I dose the fuel with Soltron.

Water in fuel is either a leaky filling cap or water from the supplier.

[Tony Brooks]

Is not Solotron an emulsifier? I am not sure but if it is then that could well be why you have found no water.