Why not join NABO?

[alan_fincher]

Sue

 

Why pray tell me do I need " Representing " by anyone. I and most other boaters are big boys and girls and simply represent ourselves. Not that I have ever needed representing, I abide by the very few easy rules like most others do and get on with it. I have NEVER had any cause for concern with Bwb, Bw Or as yet CART. In fact I have only ever found them all to be helpfull whenever I have needed to contact them.

 

Tim

 

See post 58

Edited August 19, 2013 by alan_fincher

[Tuscan]

Sue

 

Why pray tell me do I need " Representing " by anyone. I and most other boaters are big boys and girls and simply represent ourselves. Not that I have ever needed representing, I abide by the very few easy rules like most others do and get on with it. I have NEVER had any cause for concern with Bwb, Bw Or as yet CART. In fact I have only ever found them all to be helpfull whenever I have needed to contact them.

 

Tim

That's a fair point , others who also have been observing a few simple rules are finding that some of these rules are being changed and are concerned about it. The creation of CRT as an independant charity closely aligned with the IWA is also bound to create additional pressures not just financial.

 

Individuals like John (Cotswoldsman) or associations like NABO can help support or influence these changes. But no one is being press ganged into joining !!

[sueb]

That's a fair point , others who also have been observing a few simple rules are finding that some of these rules are being changed and are concerned about it. The creation of CRT as an independant charity closely aligned with the IWA is also bound to create additional pressures not just financial.

 

Individuals like John (Cotswoldsman) or associations like NABO can help support or influence these changes. But no one is being press ganged into joining !!

A bit like a trade union, a few gain benefits for the many. It's a shame that the many won't put their hands in their pockets to part with a little cash

[blodger]

A bit like a trade union, a few gain benefits for the many. It's a shame that the many won't put their hands in their pockets to part with a little cash

 

A strange definition of a trade union

[Jerra]

 

A strange definition of a trade union

From my experience fairly accurate. You have perhaps1% of activists and the others benefit. However the difference is the rest of the union have put their hands in their pockets and paid their dues.

[Smelly]

I was briefly involved with NABO but was wholly unimpressed with the lack of democracy. The agm I attended voted "x" and that promptly went in the bin and the council exercised their discretion to do "y".instead.

 

If they removed the council's discretion to decide what's best for their membership I'd probably reconsider.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

I was briefly involved with NABO but was wholly unimpressed with the lack of democracy. The agm I attended voted "x" and that promptly went in the bin and the council exercised their discretion to do "y".instead.

 

If they removed the council's discretion to decide what's best for their membership I'd probably reconsider.

One must speak as one finds but my experience of NABO has generally been very positive.

 

Some years ago a situation developed whereby the costs of running shared ownership craft would have increased by £3,000 - £4,000 per boat per year.

 

It was NABO's shared ownership rep, Howard Anguish, who sorted this out very quickly and efficiently.

[Tony Brooks]

Sue

 

Why pray tell me do I need " Representing " by anyone. I and most other boaters are big boys and girls and simply represent ourselves. Not that I have ever needed representing, I abide by the very few easy rules like most others do and get on with it. I have NEVER had any cause for concern with Bwb, Bw Or as yet CART. In fact I have only ever found them all to be helpfull whenever I have needed to contact them.

 

Tim

 

 

The reason is that in my personal experience BW and now CaRT go to great lengths to avoid answering boaters' legitimate questions and when caught out hardly ever - if at all - apologise and admit they are wrong or need to take action. Ms Ash made a good speech on the forum but I have been waiting maybe two or three months for a reply from her. I have no doubt whatsoever that despite gee up emails she will not reply. The reason is that if she did it would show one of two things.

 

1. That the Gloucester office deliberately kept her in the dark over the Upton issue despite me request that my email be forwarded to her.

 

2. That the "illegal" removal of what many boaters consider safe haven moorings was discussed at a National level and agreed - despite the legal position.

 

A few years ago I asked the London office for their risk assessment for the mass Skyrides along the towpath. They tried prevaricated (hoping I would go away?) and eventually admitted they had not done one and considered it was up to Skyride - who probably have little idea about boaters' needs and little consideration for pedestrians.

 

Other than that I do try to keep my head down and follow the rules but despite my pointing it out to them in the SMC they seem to have ignored the problems their policy will create when the Thames goes into flood and I have yet to see any definitions of what they might consider legitimate reasons for "overstaying". We should not be expected to rely upon simple goodwill of individual officials.

 

One last point. BW and now CaRT have shown that they will try pretty much anything unless challenged so we do need Ana organisation with enough money to get legal opinion to do just that. I am not a NABO member because of an apparent lack of democracy in the past (I do recognise this may be caused by a lot of noise form disgruntled members) but am seriously considering joining.

 

I think it would be interesting to see if we could judge just how many forum members and giving joining serious consideration.

[Jerra]

Ms Ash made a good speech on the forum but I have been waiting maybe two or three months for a reply from her. I have no doubt whatsoever that despite gee up emails she will not reply.

I sent Ms Ash a PM over the weekend and have had (again over the weekend) 2 replies (two replies needed because of my lack of abilities with PMing most of the message went missing.).

[SimonRNABO]

A purely personal response to some of what has been said above:

 

Anyone who runs a club or association will know what an upheaval changing the membership fees is. We offered several options to members over whether and by how much to increase membership fees and the feedback was for an increase, rather the alternatives such as do less and cut back on our activities, or in the extreme talk about winding up altogether over a couple of years. Most people who fed back also said that the issue of not increasing membership previously was not mismanagement but appreciated the fact had taken the view to try to hold fees steady for so long. The Treasurer has also not resigned!

 

We were also told if we were going to increase the fees, do so by a subsantial amount, enough so that we could be reasonably confident we would not have to do another increase in the short term. (I say a substantial amount; in the end it was about 20p per week!).

 

We anticipated some people would leave. Naturally the exercise of asking members for an increased membership fee causes some to pause and review whether they want to continue. No problem. We budgeted for a much bigger fall in membership than has actually happened so far.

 

The biggest expense is the prodution and distribution of our newsletter which we still do old school, print and post. The newsletter goes first to members and a complimentary list which includes MP's, Member of the House of Lords, senior managers and some board members of the main navigation authorities and others including some local councillors and a few others. There is also an electronic option via our website. Presently members can have either or both format.

 

When a new newsletter is issued to members, the previous one goes up on our website. See http://nabo.org.uk/reference/nabo-news-index. Like us or loathe us we do our best to be open about what we are doing and why.

 

We run in practice by the voluntary efforts of a core group of around twenty very active members including Council Members, and after that with a small amount of paid office admin. This means that yes, for instance the website is sometimes a little behind, yes we don't always blow are own trumpet as much as we could or should, but there are only so many hours in a day.

 

Our other big regular expense is that we re-imburse travel costs for anone who represents us at meetings: We go to huge numbers of consultative and other meetings and in a typical year will meet with CRT and EA, attend user group meetings round the country, meet with DEFRA a few times, other government departments as required, and other local groups, attend Parliamentary events etc. We also have reps on the BSS committees. Most of this effort ends up reported in the newsletter.

 

Membership, holding open meetings, and regularly reporting to members on all that we are up to must mean we have some mandate? We ain't perfect and don't attempt to please everyone; we do try to act in good faith and do the best we can with the collective support of people who are able to act as officers and reps.

 

I expect someone will come back with some sort of criticism about something I've said above. It may even be that the criticism is valid! What I say to you is that the question is not what I am going to do about it; what are you going to do about it ?

Edited August 20, 2013 by SimonRNABO

[Mick and Maggie]

NABO are a bunch of lunartics, the canal equivalent of UKIP and even worse seem to be avid readers of the Daily Wail.

That's a well argued case, capturing all the salient points of both sides of the discussion. Displaying the eloquence and depth of your knowledge in these matters. Rest assured I shall give it the attention it deserves.

[Mick and Maggie]

 

"NABO's growing membership represents over 3000 boaters"

 

What they certainly don't say is "we have 3000 individual members", and I'm pretty confident they do not.

 

Some careful use of words here, possibly some twist around some "members" actually being some kind of corporate membership by some other group, such that 1 NABO membership is being claimed to cover a number of boaters collectively?

What does this mean? Why?

 

Why question what they don't say about membership, I don't see the logic in that. Boaters here include everyone in the family who care to spend time on the boat. How NABO choose to express the numbers is their choice.

 

You might just use the same argument about the real number of people on CWF? A much smaller number of active members than the 16,000 that was bandied around in a different thread. People come and go in NABO the number will be reflected in a changing annual membership number. People live on forever, if they only register for CWF and never come back again. Maybe a purge on unused accounts every six months might give a more realistic figure.

[carlt]

 

People live on forever, if they only register for CWF.

Daniel....."Join my throng and you shall have everlasting life!"

 

I may have to reevaluate my atheism.

[Mick and Maggie]

Is that correct never realised that!! Oh well back to the drawing board, I thought they opposed the finning of boaters now I have changed my mind about NABO but as I said can not agree with everything they do.

I assume the standpoint was done in some democratic way by requesting views from the membership on the issue. Often such views are the idea of the proactive council and the members are asked to comment for and against. If there is lethargy in the membership to respond, then a proactive council is the way forward. When it comes to big changes - them a ballot amongst the membership could be held. Its the same model of democracy that we hold dear when selecting a government. We get the opportunity to vote for our representatives. (Or in the majority of cases we chose not to vote) But when it comes to the big issues - Europe in or out - Then a ballot with some element of compunction can be held.

 

The Lib Dems come to part power on things that they subsequently reneged on. The Tories came to part power on smoke and mirrors. The others are licking their wounds and are embroiled in fighting amongst themselves. Sort of like CWF so many opinions but with so few doers.

[Mick and Maggie]

Daniel....."Join my throng and you shall have everlasting life!"

 

I may have to reevaluate my atheism.

Have multiple logins and get a free doppelganger.

[ditchcrawler]

NABO are a bunch of lunartics, the canal equivalent of UKIP and even worse seem to be avid readers of the Daily Wail.

I dont read any papers

[Neil2]

It's a strange quirk of human nature that we can spend ages agonising over a decision to spend a few pounds, yet often major purchasing decisions are done in an instant.

 

What I'm getting at is, honestly, £25 is throwaway money for anyone who owns a boat, and even if you have doubts about the ability of NABO to fight our corner, it's worth a try isn't it?

 

Fact is, as many have said, C&RT will only really listen to a group that has a strong mandate, and so far as boat owners are concerned, I can' t see where else this is going to come from.

 

With reference to Tony's question, I for one will certainly be signing up in the next few weeks.

[cotswoldsman]

It's a strange quirk of human nature that we can spend ages agonising over a decision to spend a few pounds, yet often major purchasing decisions are done in an instant.

 

What I'm getting at is, honestly, £25 is throwaway money for anyone who owns a boat, and even if you have doubts about the ability of NABO to fight our corner, it's worth a try isn't it?

 

Fact is, as many have said, C&RT will only really listen to a group that has a strong mandate, and so far as boat owners are concerned, I can' t see where else this is going to come from.

 

With reference to Tony's question, I for one will certainly be signing up in the next few weeks.

 

Can I politely suggest that you get out and about a bit more and talk to more boaters especially those on a pension. £25 might well be throw away money to you, Can I suggest that you throw some of it in the direction of those that during the winter are unable to buy enough coal to keep their boats warm for much of the time. We have had quite a few meetings with CRT on the "Ticking time bomb" waiting to go off with ageing boaters who sold everything to buy a boat and now find that their income has not kept pace with the cost of living on a boat.

CRT might well at present prefer to listen to a group with a strong mandate, we need to change that, and not just accept it. Any boater deserves an equal voice and should not have to pay for the privilege to be heard by CRT we all pay for a licence,

I am not saying don't join NABO or any other organisation if that is what you want to do.

[mrsmelly]

It's a strange quirk of human nature that we can spend ages agonising over a decision to spend a few pounds, yet often major purchasing decisions are done in an instant.

 

What I'm getting at is, honestly, £25 is throwaway money for anyone who owns a boat, and even if you have doubts about the ability of NABO to fight our corner, it's worth a try isn't it?

 

Fact is, as many have said, C&RT will only really listen to a group that has a strong mandate, and so far as boat owners are concerned, I can' t see where else this is going to come from.

 

With reference to Tony's question, I for one will certainly be signing up in the next few weeks.

Hi Neil

 

May I ask just " What corner " you think needs fighting. In 24 years I have never had need of myself or anyone else to fight my corner. As I have said before just comply with the very very few and very easy rules on the waterways and BWB, BW and also so far CART are nothing but helpfull.

There are some tiny changes being made some of which are long overdue at the moment. CART are not trying to stop boaters.

 

Tim

[sueb]

Tim have you ever thought why the rules are fairly simple? It's because volunteers spend a long time negotiating with BW/Cart on boaters behalf.

[mrsmelly]

Tim have you ever thought why the rules are fairly simple? It's because volunteers spend a long time negotiating with BW/Cart on boaters behalf.

But Sue, the rules havnt changed since I became a liveaboard so what has been negotiated? The 14 day rule and many many others are quite simply the same. What has happened in those past years is the rapid growth of the mobile fone and internet which brings with it scaremongering. Its the same with self diagnosis of medical conditions, many people with no real Knowledge read up their symptoms online and self diagnose all sorts of things usualy completely wrong.

There is of course nowt wrong with various boat clubs/ associations for those who feel the need but I am simply not one of them. The vast majority of boaters do not bother with this forum and do not at present feel scared of the future.

 

Tim

[alan_fincher]

 

Why question what they don't say about membership, I don't see the logic in that. Boaters here include everyone in the family who care to spend time on the boat. How NABO choose to express the numbers is their choice.

 

You might just use the same argument about the real number of people on CWF? A much smaller number of active members than the 16,000 that was bandied around in a different thread. People come and go in NABO the number will be reflected in a changing annual membership number. People live on forever, if they only register for CWF and never come back again. Maybe a purge on unused accounts every six months might give a more realistic figure.

Actually we regular see discussion about how many members (say) the IWA, NABO or RBOA have, and the questions are seldom adequately answered by any real facts.

 

As BW/CRT have in the past treated a dialogue with these people as being representative of boaters generally, (and now seem keen to back off to this again), I think it is entitrly reasonable to have some idea of how many CRT boat licences are actually backed up by the licence e having membership of one or more of these associations. If for example, (and as I expect), only around 1000 of the 33,000 (or maybe 34,000) CTY licence holders are NABO members, then NABO might "represent" (say) just 3% of us. I'm a NABO member, but I think its low membership still does not give a mandate to say it represents all inland boaters.

 

You were a strong protagonist for "Boaters Manifesto" weren't you ? How many boaters could they honestly have claimed they represented - they struggled to get 200 to just complete the tick box on a petition!

 

If anybody has tried comparing membership of the assosciations to that of CWDF, then that is just daft. We have little idea how many CWDF members one might count as "active", for all the reasons you give, but people like myself, John Sloan and Steve Jay have always said CWDF can't ever be considered as "representative", and nobody who has been in discussions with CRT has claimed this, nor would want to. None of us have any mandate from CWDF to say "the collective view of the forum is....", although I might seek to say sometimes "far more people giving an opinion on this topic hold this view than hold that view".

[Jerra]

The vast majority of boaters do not bother with this forum and do not at present feel scared of the future.

That does not say they shouldn't be! It might (note the word might) be head in sand syndrome.

[sueb]

But Sue, the rules havnt changed since I became a liveaboard so what has been negotiated? The 14 day rule and many many others are quite simply the same. What has happened in those past years is the rapid growth of the mobile fone and internet which brings with it scaremongering. Its the same with self diagnosis of medical conditions, many people with no real Knowledge read up their symptoms online and self diagnose all sorts of things usualy completely wrong.

There is of course nowt wrong with various boat clubs/ associations for those who feel the need but I am simply not one of them. The vast majority of boaters do not bother with this forum and do not at present feel scared of the future.

 

Tim

So do you believe Cotswoldman is wasting his time and money on a non existent cause?

[NigelMoore]

As I have said before just comply with the very very few and very easy rules on the waterways and BWB, BW and also so far CART are nothing but helpfull.

 

 

This is such utter, naïve, ostrich mentality rubbish. Agreed, most of the thousands of boaters will never fall foul of the authorities – whether complying fully with the ‘rules’ or not. That is not to say that everyone abiding by them need not worry because BW and CART will be nothing but helpful; history relates otherwise.

 

If your presence on the waterways interferes with personal, financial or other institutional agendas regardless of the legitimacy of your presence or behaviour, you do well to be on guard and to be thankful if there are any prepared to fight your corner – because BW/CART have and will disregard law, decency, truth, and respect for your rights in driving through their own agenda, whatever the personal cost to you. It happens time and again – and they will continue to behave this way as occasion arises, simply because they know that they get away with it - always. Why would they change?

 

It’s not that they are “trying to stop boaters”, and the majority will share your experience. Undoubtedly too, there are many ‘rule breakers’ who will also never fall under adverse scrutiny, as well as those in more populous areas who probably should be subject to legitimate enforcement. But you have been living in your happy little bubble of carefree boating with helpful officialdom only because other agendas happened not to affect your fortunate self.

Edited August 23, 2013 by NigelMoore