Measuring Roof Curve?

[Pen n Ink]

Failing Bizzard's excellent suggestion and just for my two penn'orth...

 

For many years I have built bespoke staircases to fit in a variety of bent, curved or generally knackered 'oles. From my experience the only SAFE way of doing this is to make a template yourself - the customer invariably gets it wrong and then it's your fault - naturally!

 

The suggestion of a photograph to measure again is fine - if you are taking the photo and can be sure of the scale, angle from which it was taken etc...

 

As for making the bottom straight and letting the customer cut their own shape - with the greatest of respect to all concerned, if the customer has the time and capacity to do this why would they be asking anyone else to make them a box in the first place?

 

I am far from trying to put a dampener on things, but from long and bitter experience of a similar type of situation, please just be careful so YOU don't end up being stitched up.

[WJM]

Ok, if you are intending only low volume production (two a week) then you are definitely in the bespoke custom sector. In order to make it work you simply must visit each boat and measure it yourself.

 

I bought a cover for my semi-trad back deck a few years ago and even though I offered to produce an accurate template, the chap was absolutely insistent that he came and measured before they made it. He told me that they had learned that the hard way, the only way to get it right was to measure themselves.

[BargeeSpud]

Ok, if you are intending only low volume production (two a week) then you are definitely in the bespoke custom sector. In order to make it work you simply must visit each boat and measure it yourself.

 

I bought a cover for my semi-trad back deck a few years ago and even though I offered to produce an accurate template, the chap was absolutely insistent that he came and measured before they made it. He told me that they had learned that the hard way, the only way to get it right was to measure themselves.

 

Absolutely. It seems you will be offering a unique personal service & producing a truly bespoke product. That carries a premium over the run of the mill roof boxes & will be your USP, so you must push that in your marketing strategy & reflect that in your pricing. As your production run will be small to start with, you will probably be attracting customers locally to you at first, which should make it easier to do the templates yourself. Once you establish yourself you can then decide how much you want to increase the radius you are prepared to travel & there's no reason why you cannot charge extra for travel over a certain distance. Have you thought of a trusted local agent to do the templates for you to cover areas you can't get to yourself?

 

Remember, if you intend to offer a unique, quality bespoke product & service, once you set the quality level, you must NEVER let that quality level slip - ever. Word of mouth will be the best from of marketing you will ever get.

Edited June 25, 2013 by Spuds

[Wanted]

I'm not convinced that lots of people would want what is in affect a hard cover so that their stuff can sit directly on the paintwork.

 

Again, not trying to dampen the spirit. Personally I would have a slated floor with adjustable feet.

 

The quality of your work does look good in the pic though.

[Chagall]

I'm not convinced that lots of people would want what is in affect a hard cover so that their stuff can sit directly on the paintwork.

 

Again, not trying to dampen the spirit. Personally I would have a slated floor with adjustable feet.

 

The quality of your work does look good in the pic though.

 

I tend to agree, when doodlebug first showed us his box with solar panel lids, I was interested, Ive been wanting top boxes and solar for quite a while. When I realised they had no base and that with a base they may be too high I decided not to go for one.

 

This coincided with my marina replacing worn decking and I managed to secure quite a few pieces and gave it a try making my own. I did use a plywood base but I began to appreciate why these boxes cost as much as they do to buy!

 

Don't be discouraged doodle, Im sure the answer will work out and if they are still good value Im certain you will get plenty of orders. As Wanted has said they do look good workmanship.

Edited June 25, 2013 by Chagall

[Machpoint005]

Isn't a section through a boat roof close enough to a circular segment for it to make no significant difference? All you need is the length of arc, the height difference between the ends and the middle, and the length of the chord, and the shape is fully defined.

 

He knew a thing or two, that Euclid geezer.

[Pen n Ink]

Isn't a section through a boat roof close enough to a circular segment for it to make no significant difference? All you need is the length of arc, the height difference between the ends and the middle, and the length of the chord, and the shape is fully defined.

 

He knew a thing or two, that Euclid geezer.

 

Very possibly so. Not being funny, but how many people here can actually provide these dimensions accurately for their boat? This was surely the OP's original question!

 

Hence the template....

[Doodlebug]

I would also say that I am not targeting those people who have just spent 100000 pounds on a brand new boat, since they probably will have spent money on clever and expensive storage solutions inside the boat. They are aimed at the people who, through lack of choice, have to put their things onto the metal surface of their boat, but want to cover it up, just like I did.

 

I am considering offering some sort of rubber matting to go over the roof to protect it from the contents of peoples boxes, although bags of coal on a roof wont do much damage unless it gets wet (causing the acidic inks to be a problem)

 

There is also a balance to be made with quality. I could quite happily make solid oak boxes, with proper wood joints and chrome fittings, but for 500 pounds I wont be selling many. I have (in my opinion) designed something which cleverly uses a very good quality waterproof canvas to cover what is a very practical (yet unsightly) material (plywood)

 

Back on topic, although it may not be the politically correct stance to take, but if I am given a measurement and asked to make a box to fit the measurement I am given, as long as I do it correctly its not my fault if it doesn't fit. Surely?

 

Especially if I have specifically asked them to check the measurement before buying one?

[blackrose]

Is it safe to presume that curved roofs have a constant radius curve? If not, your idea of measuring the height difference between the top and the edges wont allow accurate reproduction of the roof shape, so the card idea would be better.

 

Is it even safe to presume that all curved roofs have a uniform curve from bow to stern? If not the card idea may not work either. The curve will somehow have to be measured at the proposed location of the box - perhaps as alvichas1's scribing method describes.

I think you need to establish a common generic design. I work in bespoke manufacturing and know a bit about how to make it work. Trying to produce an exact match for every boat is going to be a commercial nightmare. The cost of errors and reworking will sink you.

 

Agreed

 

Alternatively, I suppose you could approach the major builders & make up your own templates & then all your customer has to do is tell you the name of their builder.

 

Even boats made by the same builder vary. The roof of my Liverpool Boats widebeam is curved up at least 4" higher than a friend's with the same boat.

Edited June 25, 2013 by blackrose

[Pen n Ink]

 

 

Back on topic, although it may not be the politically correct stance to take, but if I am given a measurement and asked to make a box to fit the measurement I am given, as long as I do it correctly its not my fault if it doesn't fit. Surely?

 

Especially if I have specifically asked them to check the measurement before buying one?

 

Unfortunately here you have the classic problem... morally you are absolutely right; legally you may well be right... but in the great court of public opinion, the customer will always shout loudest.

 

Wrong it may be but that's how most businesses find it nowadays especially when making anything bespoke.

[blackrose]

Exactly. Wanteds Spiling method is the most accurate.

 

Not if the curve of the roof varys from bow to stern and the box is to be sited somewhere in the middle. You'd only need a slight variation in the curve and the box won't sit properly and leave an gap either at the top of the curve or at the edges causing the box to rock.

 

As your production run will be small to start with, you will probably be attracting customers locally to you at first, which should make it easier to do the templates yourself. Once you establish yourself you can then decide how much you want to increase the radius you are prepared to travel & there's no reason why you cannot charge extra for travel over a certain distance. Have you thought of a trusted local agent to do the templates for you to cover areas you can't get to yourself?

 

 

I agree, you can't let customers measure the curve themselves - there's too much risk if they don't do it properly.

Edited June 25, 2013 by blackrose

[jenevers]

Get a 6 feet long, straight piece of wood.

Mark off from centre every 3" (75mm).

Lay wood on roof ie touching in middle.

Measure distance below each mark from bottom edge of wood to roof (middle mark will be zero)

Text/email measurements to builder.

Voila!

[bizzard]

 

Not if the curve of the roof varys from bow to stern and the box is to be sited somewhere in the middle. You'd only need a slight variation in the curve and the box won't sit properly and leave an gap either at the top of the curve or at the edges causing the box to rock.

 

I agree, you can't let customers measure the curve themselves - there's too much risk if they don't do it properly.

Yes but you don't just spile a roof curvature template for one end of the box, you would spile both ends or wherever there are supports on the roof.

[BargeeSpud]

 

Back on topic, although it may not be the politically correct stance to take, but if I am given a measurement and asked to make a box to fit the measurement I am given, as long as I do it correctly its not my fault if it doesn't fit. Surely?

 

Especially if I have specifically asked them to check the measurement before buying one?

 

Oh that customers would all accept that, business would be so much easier. Sadly the real world is different & to most unhappy customers, it will invariably be your fault if they're not happy & you'll be expected to take the hit.

 

I said earlier that word of mouth is the best marketing you'll ever get. It is also the quickest way to go under. You have to allow that for every customer you upset, they'll tell about 10 friends & colleagues about their dissatisfaction with you & so it spreads. It won't matter that you're in the right & the customer is trying to shaft you, that's what will happen. A good reputation is very hard to achieve, but very easy to lose.

[MtB]

 

Surely narrowboat roofs aren't that badly made that they aren't a smooth curve?

 

You clearly haven't inspected more than about one narrowboat room then!

 

Neither of my boats' roofs are uniformly curved as you move along the length of the boat, not are they a true arc. Same applies to Starcoaster's Springer. I had large pigeon boxes (dog boxes?) made for me by Martin Kedain for Aldebaran and I made the roof curve template. Stupidly I only made one. He made the boxes to match and they only fitted the roof curve in one place. Fortunately the steel roof bent suficiently to take up the gaps as the boxes were bolted down tight.

 

MtB

[WJM]

 

Oh that customers would all accept that, business would be so much easier. Sadly the real world is different & to most unhappy customers, it will invariably be your fault if they're not happy & you'll be expected to take the hit.

 

I said earlier that word of mouth is the best marketing you'll ever get. It is also the quickest way to go under. You have to allow that for every customer you upset, they'll tell about 10 friends & colleagues about their dissatisfaction with you & so it spreads. It won't matter that you're in the right & the customer is trying to shaft you, that's what will happen. A good reputation is very hard to achieve, but very easy to lose.

The customer is always right, even when they are wrong.

 

No business is really about making or selling a product. Every business is essentially about satisfying the customer - loose sight of that and you die, and many do!

[BargeeSpud]

The customer is always right, even when they are wrong.

 

No business is really about making or selling a product. Every business is essentially about satisfying the customer - loose sight of that and you die, and many do!

 

Spot on. Sad fact of business life, it's spanked me on the bottom a few times in the past.

[WJM]

 

Spot on. Sad fact of business life, it's spanked me on the bottom a few times in the past.

Too many failed businessmen think their business was about their product, they couldn't see the woods for the trees!

 

In this context, the OP might not like the idea of a generic one-size-fits-all product, but it is not about what he likes, it is about what the customer likes!

[RLWP]

Too many failed businessmen think their business was about their product, they couldn't see the woods for the trees!

 

In this context, the OP might not like the idea of a generic one-size-fits-all product, but it is not about what he likes, it is about what the customer likes!

 

To finesse that a bit, it is not about what he likes, it is about what the customer likes, that can be delivered and makes a profit

 

Richard

[14skipper]

The boxes sound great but must agree with others that contents sitting on roof in side box does not seem like a good idea?

 

14Skipper

[Doodlebug]

Maybe i'm missing something but if I was spending money on something I would measure it properly to make sure it fits. I see everyones points though.

 

I will deffo be selling a mat to go inside the boxes on the roof to give it protection. But honestly creating a bottom for them won't solve anything in my opinion. A mat will protect the paint just as well as anything else.

 

I had solar panels resting on the roof all winter. When I lifted them the amount of staining and debris that had gathered through being blown under, insects etc was astonishing. The same will happen if they have a raised bottom.

 

Plus add another 50 to the price. I'm happy to make them for people who specifically request it but things are getting complicated enough without this many add ons.

 

To be honest i'll make anything i'm asked to make.

 

Thanks!

[alvicchas1]

Get a 6 feet long, straight piece of wood.

Mark off from centre every 3" (75mm).

Lay wood on roof ie touching in middle.

Measure distance below each mark from bottom edge of wood to roof (middle mark will be zero)

Text/email measurements to builder.

Voila!

This is a great idea and I hope Doodlebug will give it consideration. I would suggest that the piece of wood was supported at each end with wooden blocks so that it sits correctly across the curve.

[bizzard]

More accurate and a lot quicker to spile the curvature onto a transverse plank or board with a spiling block and pencil.

Edited June 27, 2013 by bizzard

[Doodlebug]

All the ideas have been great, its only down to whether everyone can replicate it without mistakes. I have visions of people holding a spirit level on their roof and measuring down, forgetting that although the spirit level is level, the boat is not, then complaining when the top boxes dont fit!

 

I also see people getting mixed up with their measurements and mistaking mm for cm, etc. Although at least that should be easy to spot, especially when they say that the roof curve is 100cm

[the barnacle]

shame you couldn't make the box universal with small adjustable feet on the corners to alter the support, or make the unit in 2 halves I own a plastic / stainless fabrication business and I find some people are unable to measure, but you are aiming at a market where most people are very practical,

 

to make a box and rely on someone giving you a curve will be hard but some good suggestions have been made to achieve this.