Alternative Ballasting Question - Engineering Bricks

[alan_fincher]

Having made little progress on finding steel or iron ballast at a sensible price, I'm now investigating engineering bricks.

 

How hard should it be?

 

I'm struggling to find good data on weight of a brick, which seems to be quoted widely differently.

 

I suspect this is because many are perforated by 3 or so large holes, rather than solid. In fact most readily available bricks at builders merchants see more likely to be perforated. (I suspect "some" holed bricks weigh around 2.3KG, but some solids as much as 3.2 KG?)

 

As I'm after "as compact as possible" I don't want holes, but "solids" seem to be a lot more expensive, particularly if they are "class A" (usually blue) which are stronger and absorb less water. I guess "class B" (usually red) would be OK, but they will be getting wet, and I wonder if they might in the most extreme cases then get frost damaged?

 

The problem is for Class A solid blue brick, readily available, the costs are still pretty high. (Nobody I have yet phoned is offering "seconds").

So......

Do I need to worry about type ?

Will a "Class A" brick be significantly denser than a "Class B" one to make the extra compactness worth considerable extra cost ?

Will "class B" bricks ever get broken up by frost, if they get wet enough in the hold of a boat ?

 

(I think I have already decided I don't want perforated bricks, and hence lost the cheapest option!)

Iron/steel is starting to sound "less unattractive" than I thought!

[Boat&Bikes]

Having made little progress on finding steel or iron ballast at a sensible price, I'm now investigating engineering bricks.

 

How hard should it be?

 

I'm struggling to find good data on weight of a brick, which seems to be quoted widely differently.

 

I suspect this is because many are perforated by 3 or so large holes, rather than solid. In fact most readily available bricks at builders merchants see more likely to be perforated. (I suspect "some" holed bricks weigh around 2.3KG, but some solids as much as 3.2 KG?)

 

As I'm after "as compact as possible" I don't want holes, but "solids" seem to be a lot more expensive, particularly if they are "class A" (usually blue) which are stronger and absorb less water. I guess "class B" (usually red) would be OK, but they will be getting wet, and I wonder if they might in the most extreme cases then get frost damaged?

 

The problem is for Class A solid blue brick, readily available, the costs are still pretty high. (Nobody I have yet phoned is offering "seconds").

 

So......

 

Do I need to worry about type ?

Will a "Class A" brick be significantly denser than a "Class B" one to make the extra compactness worth considerable extra cost ?

Will "class B" bricks ever get broken up by frost, if they get wet enough in the hold of a boat ?

 

(I think I have already decided I don't want perforated bricks, and hence lost the cheapest option!)

 

Iron/steel is starting to sound "less unattractive" than I thought!

 

Having made little progress on finding steel or iron ballast at a sensible price, I'm now investigating engineering bricks.

 

How hard should it be?

 

I'm struggling to find good data on weight of a brick, which seems to be quoted widely differently.

 

I suspect this is because many are perforated by 3 or so large holes, rather than solid. In fact most readily available bricks at builders merchants see more likely to be perforated. (I suspect "some" holed bricks weigh around 2.3KG, but some solids as much as 3.2 KG?)

 

As I'm after "as compact as possible" I don't want holes, but "solids" seem to be a lot more expensive, particularly if they are "class A" (usually blue) which are stronger and absorb less water. I guess "class B" (usually red) would be OK, but they will be getting wet, and I wonder if they might in the most extreme cases then get frost damaged?

 

The problem is for Class A solid blue brick, readily available, the costs are still pretty high. (Nobody I have yet phoned is offering "seconds").

 

So......

 

Do I need to worry about type ?

Will a "Class A" brick be significantly denser than a "Class B" one to make the extra compactness worth considerable extra cost ?

Will "class B" bricks ever get broken up by frost, if they get wet enough in the hold of a boat ?

 

(I think I have already decided I don't want perforated bricks, and hence lost the cheapest option!)

 

Iron/steel is starting to sound "less unattractive" than I thought!

Hi how much ballast are you looking for as I have some steel that may suit going very cheap?

 

Ian.

[rjasmith]

Alan,

 

I know that ideally you want proper engineering bricks and I went through all this like you have. In the end I decided that plain dense concrete block pavers (ie "brick" shaped, not slabs) might be good enough.

 

I got a job lot off eBay, they were lifted from some ex council car park and one or two still have the yellow parking bay lines painted on them! I think I paid just over £100 for about 2000 (only needed 1000).

 

These weigh exactly 3.5kg each and are easy to slot in between frames etc. (Colecraft shell). I laid them on strips of roofing felt, after liberally wax oiling, leaving gaps in the felt for a little bit of baseplate breathing.

 

I reasoned that if they are designed for a carpark then they shouldn't be too susceptible to frost and maybe, while not as good as eng. bricks perhaps, they shouldn't be too susceptible to water take up. Certainly the "leftover" pile is still sitting here in the garden and shows absolutely no sign of frost damage after having been through rain, storm and frost for at least 5 years plus however long they were in the car park before I got them!!

 

Richard

[miq]

The heat absorbent bricks from electric storage heaters are very dense/heavy for their size, and after dismantling a heater in a holiday cottage we built a barbecue stand from them which has weathered well over a number of years. The reason we used them on the barbecue, was because no one wanted them! so if you could make contact with a builder in a popular holiday cottage area you might well get them for the cost of transportation. They are also a useful shape and size, being flatter than ordinary house bricks.

[alan_fincher]

The heat absorbent bricks from electric storage heaters are very dense/heavy for their size, and after dismantling a heater in a holiday cottage we built a barbecue stand from them which has weathered well over a number of years. The reason we used them on the barbecue, was because no one wanted them! so if you could make contact with a builder in a popular holiday cottage area you might well get them for the cost of transportation. They are also a useful shape and size, being flatter than ordinary house bricks.

Yes, these got discussed in another thread.

 

Trouble is I need one or two tons of ballast now, really, and haven't really got the time or resources to try finding that amoun from this kind of route, which I think would need to find a lot of scrap storage heaters for the quantity I need.

[David Mack]

Having made little progress on finding steel or iron ballast at a sensible price, I'm now investigating engineering bricks.

 

How hard should it be?

 

<snip>

 

Iron/steel is starting to sound "less unattractive" than I thought!

 

That's why we bit the bullet and paid Mann & Buck's price. Steel strips, cut to size and delivered in one easy hit.

 

The painting and installation took a bit longer, but at least with Sickle you don't have internal furnishings to move first.

[luctor et emergo]

I assume that you have rejected the 45 gallon drum (filled with water) option on account that it would not lower the CoG enough?

[john6767]

Strange you had no luck. I found it really easy to find class A solid blue engineering bricks at the local builders merchants E H Smith and when I went to buy them they asked me if seconds would be OK, which of course they were. There was not much wrong with them either. I notice that they have a branch in Hemel Hempstead, have you tried them?

 

They are 3.2kg which was the quoted weight, which I confirmed as correct. Obviously ones with holes in would be lighter, so you really want the solid ones in my opinion.

[churchward]

Strange you had no luck. I found it really easy to find class A solid blue engineering bricks at the local builders merchants E H Smith and when I went to buy them they asked me if seconds would be OK, which of course they were. There was not much wrong with them either. I notice that they have a branch in Hemel Hempstead, have you tried them?

 

They are 3.2kg which was the quoted weight, which I confirmed as correct. Obviously ones with holes in would be lighter, so you really want the solid ones in my opinion.

Yes I would go for the blue engineering bricks. All the Orange ones I have seen have 3 holes in the centre but have seen the Blue ones fully solid.

 

I assume that you have rejected the 45 gallon drum (filled with water) option on account that it would not lower the CoG enough?

It's a thought though. A variation on that could be to cut the top and bottom off and fill the ends with concrete. This would end up with lower weight.

[Glynn]

Why not visit a steel stock place and buy some "cut off ends ) of steel girders RSJ's ?.

They are heavy for their size and managable.

[luctor et emergo]

Yes I would go for the blue engineering bricks. All the Orange ones I have seen have 3 holes in the centre but have seen the Blue ones fully solid.

It's a thought though. A variation on that could be to cut the top and bottom off and fill the ends with concrete. This would end up with lower weight.

Good idea. Inserting an eye, bend from some old re-bar (who said BW mooring pins...?) would help removing them at some point in the future.

[churchward]

Good idea. Inserting an eye, bend from some old re-bar (who said BW mooring pins...?) would help removing them at some point in the future.

Even better.

[Harpur Hill]

Hi All,

I notice a number of folk seeking balast.

 

Whilst at the Barrow Hill round house (near Staveley) at the weekend I saw a work party replacing worn rails, I

 

understand these are to be cut up and scrapped. I will leave anyone interested to make their own contact.

 

HH

[alan_fincher]

Strange you had no luck. I found it really easy to find class A solid blue engineering bricks at the local builders merchants E H Smith and when I went to buy them they asked me if seconds would be OK, which of course they were. There was not much wrong with them either. I notice that they have a branch in Hemel Hempstead, have you tried them?

 

They are 3.2kg which was the quoted weight, which I confirmed as correct. Obviously ones with holes in would be lighter, so you really want the solid ones in my opinion.

Yes, EH Smith is one of the places I spoke to.

 

They reckoned both their red and blue engineering bricks weigh in at 3Kg each - I expected a slightly higher number like yours, so wonder if they have it right, but tha's what they said.

 

Unfortunately the quoted price, even for the kind of quantities I want is 80p each + VAT for blue, and 47p each + VAT for red.

 

For 2 tonnes at 3Kg each that is about 670 bricks = £536 + VAT = £643 for the blue "class A"

 

Jewsons came in rather cheaper, but not a lot.

 

Travis Perkins couldn't make their mind up on the phone, but seemed to be more.

 

Paying over £300 a ton seems a different league to people talking about getting pallets of seconds for £60, but if anyone is offering a cheap deal locally, I didn't find it this morning!

 

As this isn't really even the solution I wanted, if it is going to anything like cost that much, I don't think I'll be going there!

[David Mack]

Yes, EH Smith is one of the places I spoke to.

 

They reckoned both their red and blue engineering bricks weigh in at 3Kg each - I expected a slightly higher number like yours, so wonder if they have it right, but tha's what they said.

 

Unfortunately the quoted price, even for the kind of quantities I want is 80p each + VAT for blue, and 47p each + VAT for red.

 

For 2 tonnes at 3Kg each that is about 670 bricks = £536 + VAT = £643 for the blue "class A"

 

Jewsons came in rather cheaper, but not a lot.

 

Travis Perkins couldn't make their mind up on the phone, but seemed to be more.

 

Paying over £300 a ton seems a different league to people talking about getting pallets of seconds for £60, but if anyone is offering a cheap deal locally, I didn't find it this morning!

 

As this isn't really even the solution I wanted, if it is going to anything like cost that much, I don't think I'll be going there!

 

£94 including VAT for 384 73mm deep blue bricks albeit that they are perforated. Or £139 including VAT and delivery for 400 65mm blue bricks.

[GUMPY]

over the last few days I have been giving this some serious consideration, one thing that has come to the fore again and again is that Sickle has a hold, albeit a small one.

Now I know this is quite radical but one could load the hold with coal, this would mean that there was always a supply for the boatmans stove, and there would be coal to distribute at boat gatherings when its cold

[davidc]

Local Brick Maker Quote me for 7 ton of reject bricks 700 pounds

 

http://www.ibstock.com/

 

And also assured me there would weigh the pallets before loading them and let me know each pallets weight

[alan_fincher]

I assume that you have rejected the 45 gallon drum (filled with water) option on account that it would not lower the CoG enough?

Rejected more because it is water ballast we are trying to rid ourselves of.

 

Also because we already hads nearly ten times that amount on board, so 45 gallons frankly would,'t make any significant difference!

Local Brick Maker Quote me for 7 ton of reject bricks 700 pounds

 

http://www.ibstock.com/

 

And also assured me there would weigh the pallets before loading them and let me know each pallets weight

Thanks to all those who made useful suggestions, whether in the thread, by PM, or even, (as I discovered!) by message on my phone.

 

In the end I have decided to bite the bullet and go with metal ballast, as I'm very keen to get it as low as possible, and taking up as little room as possible.

 

By any estimation bricks or slabs could be three times the bulk of metal ballast, (and if perforated brick, only about half the size taken up by water ballast). Yes it would have been cheaper, but I would have lived with the compromise for ever. I'm sure you must be able to buy suitable iron or steel at less inflated prices than I have found, but nothing really stood out as suitable. (Anything "random" or "with holes" would start to lose out on compactness and mangeabilty).

 

My bloody spell-checker has stopped working yet again, hazn't it? Yep, it haz!

[Yellowback]

Rejected more because it is water ballast we are trying to rid ourselves of.

 

Also because we already hads nearly ten times that amount on board, so 45 gallons frankly would,'t make any significant difference!

 

 

 

The object of the exercise being to lower the boats centre of gravity, ten 45 gallon drums would sit lower.

 

But better still the canal, towpath, hedges, and vitually any road are over populated by empty 1, 2, and 3 kilo containers, plastic bottles to you and me. this would get the water down to a much lower level for now, with the advantage they are free to collect (I'm sure if the request was made 100's could be dropped on Sickle's patio by passing boaters).

 

Then as and when you find more suitable ballast, at a price more suited to your pocket, or in smaller amounts, it would be easier to switch out.

[alan_fincher]

 

 

The object of the exercise being to lower the boats centre of gravity, ten 45 gallon drums would sit lower.

 

Hard to see why, because, at one end at least that is broadly what I'm taking out!

 

The problem with water ballast is it is just not dense enough to keep it low down. You need a cubic metre for a tonne, so, if you want to (say) keep the ballast limited to the bottom 30 cms or so of the boat, you would need a container, (or series of them). that takes up 3 square metres of the floor. And that is one tonne, twice that for 2 tonnes of course). If you try making up from multiple small containers, then almost certainly a lot more space will be wasted with air gaps.

 

Plus mould (and possibly rot) will form underneath if you cover large amounts of the shuts.

[MtB]

Just in case it helps, here are some hard facts about storage heater bricks.

 

Firstly, they are generally available quite cheaply on ebay if you buy whole second-hand storage heaters. Keep the bricks and take the heater shells to the tip/recycling centre. The bricks are removable for transit and they are, as far as I can tell, almost always the same bricks whatever the make and model of storage heater.

 

I have half a dozen or so at other house so I've been back and fetched one. It is exactly 9" x 7½" x 2" thick. It weighs 8kg. So a useful bit denser than engineering bricks I think.

 

A storage heater has four of these bricks per heater element. Storage heaters have between one and four heater elements. The three and four element storage heaters seem to sell for anything from 99p to £20 or so. This means you can get 128Kg of ballast for £20 or less, which is £150 a tonne roughly.

 

Here for example, are 28 storage heater bricks on ebay at a starting price of £10. I doubt he'll get a bid. That's 224Kg of ballast for £10 plus petrol to collect. Is that more viable than buying new steel?

 

And if you decide to collect storage heater bricks you can have the half a dozen so I have lying around! I think Starcoaster has four or five spare too.

 

Hope that helps...

 

MtB

[coventrylad]

Whether this will appeal to you or not I do not know but here is my suggestion/ At present I am working for a shot peening company, All the waste shot (cast iron) is avaialble to me. I have been filling 4.5 litre plastic oil containers with this shot, they weigh 31kg when full. take up very little room will not rust and are in plastic oil containers and sealed. collection only I have approx 21 tonnes allready in 4.5ltr plastic oil drums. bid me. Or I could supply 205ltr steel oil drums full of shot pprox 1.5 tonnes. and you sort the 4.5 oil cans.

Edited June 7, 2013 by coventrylad

[Speedwheel]

56lb weights are what you need Alan. Nicely painted obviously.

 

[alan_fincher]

Here for example, are 28 storage heater bricks on ebay at a starting price of £10. I doubt he'll get a bid. That's 224Kg of ballast for £10 plus petrol to collect. Is that more viable than buying new steel?

 

 

Mike,

 

Useful info for anyone else faced with needing compat ballast in the future.

 

But taking that "as an example" Shepton Beauchamp would be a 300 mile round trip for me. Probably at least £45 worth of diesel, so that makes 224Kg of ballast £55, rather than £10, and to get the 2.25 tonnes I need, if you had to travel those kind of distances , we are looking at £500 plus. And it is still not vaguely as compact as ferrous metal alternatives.

 

I can see it could work if someone happened to be scrapping a number of heaters off close to where you need the brick, but otherwise it can't really.

Whether this will appeal to you or not I do not know but here is my suggestion/ At present I am working for a shot peening company, All the waste shot (cast iron) is avaialble to me. I have been filling 4.5 litre plastic oil containers with this shot, they weigh 31kg when full. take up very little room will not rust and are in plastic oil containers and sealed. collection only I have approx 21 tonnes allready in 4.5ltr plastic oil drums. bid me. Or I could supply 205ltr steel oil drums full of shot pprox 1.5 tonnes. and you sort the 4.5 oil cans.

 

Thanks, but unfortunately no suggestions like this came in before I had to buy something!

 

It could have worked, so lets help the info is useful to someone else faced with a similar challenge.

56lb weights are what you need Alan. Nicely painted obviously.

 

Very helpful!

 

And that would be cheaper would it, if I were trying to source them?

[Speedwheel]

 

And that would be cheaper would it, if I were trying to source them?

 

Cheaper?!!!! Oh no, most certainly not.