Closing lock gates

[Pluto]

I have wondered why the instructions on the K&A are so specific, and varied. Its obvious with turf locks - leave empty to allow plants to grow, but less clear why either top or bottom is specific to close/open on other locks. I had thought it was about leaky gates and slowing the wear caused by leaks, or even about the dodgy brickwork needing to nbe left under/free of pressure but clearly thats wrong. I think I understand its about byweir management from your post.

Turf-sided locks leak to a much greater extent than brick or stone locks, and that is why they should be left empty.

[magpie patrick]

I think I am wrong it is the one at Kings Norton that is to get the funding

 

Will only answer once.........

 

I assume the one at Kings Norton as well, will check and post

[Rob-M]

I assume the one at Kings Norton as well, will check and post

Yes work has already been carried out, it was drained earlier in the year with an open day and a chance for the local school children to take a tour.

[waterworks]

mmmh you are being a bit of an argumentative waterworks (as in argumentative for the sake of it, without actually making a counter argument ("No I'm not!" I hear you say)), are you bored? The C&RT Boaters Handbook says to close gates when you leave. That is the convention on canals. If you don't do that, you are the devil incarnate and a rather argumentative one at that. By the way, if you must argue you could at least remember i before e except after c.

 

 

Is that so they don't get trapped in the lock with no dinner? I guess that is a good reason, but I think water control in times of high water is also a reason.

 

 

Alright then, canalised river if you want to be picky, or even riverised canal. Trouble is that if you leave the gates open on the lower GU, others less well informed will think you are a tosser, so I prefer to keep the peace and show consideration to other's feelings and just close them, its not that hard!

 

So, OP, the answer is as I said. If you ask the question "does everyone on this forum agree, or even want to agree even though they know its true", the answer is obviously No! That is the nature of bored people on a forum!

 

The boaters hand book is not the byelaws, one was written by serious commercial canal operators, ( with very big top hats ) the other by CRT who know even less than BW, and they knew nothing.

 

 

closing gates was only invented by BW in the post war era when the system was going into deriliction, as an emergency measure to save water, CRT tell us now everything is all shiny and in perfect condition, so this measure does not apply anymore. They only keep repeating it because thats all they know, they can't tell you why.

 

I will admit some pounds have to have the gates closed, but only a few short ones, and i don't have a crystall ball so i leave everything open. If CRT sign posted the leaky ones i would happily close.

Edited January 28, 2013 by waterworks

[nicknorman]

The boaters hand book is not the byelaws, one was written by serious commercial canal operators, ( with very big top hats ) the other by CRT who know even less than BW, and they knew nothing.

 

 

closing gates was only invented by BW in the post war era when the system was going into deriliction, as an emergency measure to save water, CRT tell us now everything is all shiny and in perfect condition, so this measure does not apply anymore. They only keep repeating it because thats all they know, they can't tell you why.

 

I will admit some pounds have to have the gates closed, but only a few short ones, and i don't have a crystall ball so i leave everything open. If CRT sign posted the leaky ones i would happily close.

I'm sure you know far more about it than all those professionals over the decades and the vast majority of considerate boaters who close the gates.

[alan_fincher]

Our bin men would never shut the bloomin gate after them. I expect they weren't canal boaters.

I'm not so sure, they did drive what used to be called a Dust CART.

[waterworks]

I'm sure you know far more about it than all those professionals over the decades and the vast majority of considerate boaters who close the gates.

 

 

 

 

The professional boaters never closed gates in the canal carring era.

 

It is not considerate to force other boaters to do more work just because you can't see them following you.

 

As i said, the idea of closing gates was invented by BW, it is not the correct way of working locks.

[gazza]

The professional boaters never closed gates in the canal carring era.

 

It is not considerate to force other boaters to do more work just because you can't see them following you.

 

As i said, the idea of closing gates was invented by BW, it is not the correct way of working locks.

 

correct!! with you on this one.

 

we were coming down whilton locks a few years ago, could see a boat on its way up by wilton carpets, we left our bottom gates open for them. prat way behind waving like mad cos we hadnt shut them fo his benifit, 50/50 you win or loose.....ignored said prat, and got a thankyou from ascending boat!! love to know what was said when the two passed each other.

 

another time we were decending aston locks, guy had stopped for lunch in pound, cheeky bugger pinched the lock we had just prepaired while our boat was in the lock above it. to his credit he shut every bottom gate and left a paddle up on the top gate for us, no harm done and still a swift decent.

 

shut the gate!! shut the gate!! depends on the situation, location, time of day etc, not clear cut at all. if someone stick to the shut the gate at all times they could pee someone right off by making more work than needed due to inability to read the situation.

 

even on the nene, on the odd occasion the river is navigable and busy, the logic in leaving lock empty a bit frail, going upstream, the times we have emptied a lock only to get round a bend to find a boat coming downstream, thus having emptied a lock that was ready for them.......true, in times of high flows they should be left set empty, but in the summer with logish periods of settled weather no problems will be encountered leaving the lock full, the sluices and weirs at each lock are more than capable of coping with normal river flows

only bummer is if you happen to be following a boat upstream that leaves a lock full........

i dont buy the protecting fish nonsense neither!!!

[Higgs]

shut the gate!! shut the gate!! depends on the situation, location, time of day etc, not clear cut at all. if someone stick to the shut the gate at all times they could pee someone right off by making more work than needed due to inability to read the situation.

 

The only time I could imagine peeing someone off is if I'm leaving a lock and shut the gates for a boat that is on its way to the lock at the level I've just left. But generally you can see them anyway.

 

If I reach a lock at the top and the bottom gates are open, it takes a little time to close the gates. And if you happen to be following the boat that keeps leaving the bottom gates open, I might just start to get a little peeved. I might not necessarily have clapped eyes on that boat ahead.

 

Wouldn't you think that if locks were meant to be left open, signs for that setting would be normal and commonplace?

[nicknorman]

The professional boaters never closed gates in the canal carring era.

 

It is not considerate to force other boaters to do more work just because you can't see them following you.

 

As i said, the idea of closing gates was invented by BW, it is not the correct way of working locks.

I'm sure you are right about professional boaters, on the other hand they regularly had punch ups to decide whose lock t was, and the infrastructure was 100 yrs younger and much better maintained. They also had horses and a whole family in a tiny back cabin. So really, no comparison with the current canal system and its users.

 

I don't see you point about following boaters, they would far prefer you to close the gates when you leave. Of course f you are aware that a boat is coming the other way and will be next for the lock, it is sensible and considerate to leave the gates open.

 

Yes the idea of closing gates probably was invented by BW, for a good reason and is only not the correct way of working locks in your opinion, an opinion that is fortunately shared only by a tiny minority. In my view, a tiny minority of inconsiderate people who are trying to justify their lazy and selfish ways by some irrelevant historic angle. Hopefully you are a CMer and don't actually go through many locks!

[Doorman]

 

Is that so they don't get trapped in the lock with no dinner?

 

I prefer to keep the peace and show consideration to other's feelings (excepting the hungry fish) and just close them, its not that hard!

 

 

 

 

Please return to the naughty corner Nick. You're winding us all up again!

[nicknorman]

 

Please return to the naughty corner Nick. You're winding us all up again!

Ah but we all know hungry fish have no feelings. At least that's what the anglers tell me as they are ripping the fishes mouthes to shreds!

[Doorman]

One courtesy which I learned from more experienced boaters years ago, and which i try to maintain, is that if we're going down a flight of locks and are aware that another boat is coming down not far behind, to leave one top paddle open to give them a good start when they come to use the lock. Naturally we first look ahead to make sure that no one is coming the other way.

 

Ditto...

 

We also try to maintain this courtesy wherever possible and always get a friendly nod of appreciation when the following boater catches us up.

 

Ah but we all know hungry fish have no feelings. At least that's what the anglers tell me as they are ripping the fishes mouthes to shreds!

 

So cruel.......

 

I reckon that Mick Jagger was a fish in a previous life looking at those lips and it's never done him any harm.

[Pluto]

The professional boaters never closed gates in the canal carring era.

 

It is not considerate to force other boaters to do more work just because you can't see them following you.

 

As i said, the idea of closing gates was invented by BW, it is not the correct way of working locks.

You are wrong, as some canals had specific clauses in their Acts requiring locks to be left either empty or full. For example, clause 60 of the Rochdale Canal Act requires every lock to be left empty with the gates closed unless another boat is in sight. Most canals also had byelaws stating that passage of locks was as directed by the canal company or its agents, so if you are told to close gates, you should close gates. What you are talking about is how canals operated at the end of the carrying trade, which can sometimes be considerably different to how they operated earlier.

[Doorman]

I may be being over simplistic and I am sure somebody will tell me I am wrong but my thought process goes like this.

 

You have two identical water tanks one with a 1/4" hole and the other a half inch hole. Which loses water fastest? The one with the half inch hole of course.

 

To me it is difficult if not impossible to judge which gates will leak most. If you close both gates and the top gate is the leakiest you have saved a lot of water (because the water loss is from the "smallest hole") If however the leakiest gate it the bottom, well all you have lost (over and above the amount that would be lost through the least leaky gate is one lock full of water.

 

As a result for me it is worth the little bit of extra time and effort to do as I am supposed to do and close both.

 

EDIT to add what I felt was obvious but may not be. If you leave the gate with the least leaks open at the bottom of the lock the water loss is continual at the higher level until the lock is next used.

 

I hope those burblings make sense.

 

Here's a similar conundrum.

 

If you had a bath full of water, which would you use to empty it?

 

A thimble, or a cup?

 

 

Simples, just pull the bloody plug out.

Edited January 29, 2013 by Doorman

[waterworks]

I'm sure you are right about professional boaters, on the other hand they regularly had punch ups to decide whose lock t was, and the infrastructure was 100 yrs younger and much better maintained. They also had horses and a whole family in a tiny back cabin. So really, no comparison with the current canal system and its users.

 

I don't see you point about following boaters, they would far prefer you to close the gates when you leave. Of course f you are aware that a boat is coming the other way and will be next for the lock, it is sensible and considerate to leave the gates open.

 

Yes the idea of closing gates probably was invented by BW, for a good reason and is only not the correct way of working locks in your opinion, an opinion that is fortunately shared only by a tiny minority. In my view, a tiny minority of inconsiderate people who are trying to justify their lazy and selfish ways by some irrelevant historic angle. Hopefully you are a CMer and don't actually go through many locks!

On the GU i don't see a tiny minority, i see about 50/50, i live here 24/7.

 

it is not lazy or selfish, and it doesn't have to be justified, your not looking at the big picture, just your own single journey. ( which is selfish ) If you allways close gates then you will never arrive at a lock that is open & ready for you, if you leave open then in theory you will get 50% of locks in your favor in the long term. It's just common sense.

[Nickhlx]

.....and if a cow, sheep, dog or cat ( Person ?) etc were to fall in to a remote lock at dusk and no boats came until the next morning, the chance of finding a corpse in there would be quite high, especially in Winter...or perhaps that never happens ?

 

I always obey the signs, unless someone is in view approaching, in case there is a situation I don't know about, but in the absence of signs .....

 

 

 

 

Nick

Edited January 29, 2013 by Nickhlx

[waterworks]

You are wrong, as some canals had specific clauses in their Acts requiring locks to be left either empty or full. For example, clause 60 of the Rochdale Canal Act requires every lock to be left empty with the gates closed unless another boat is in sight. Most canals also had byelaws stating that passage of locks was as directed by the canal company or its agents, so if you are told to close gates, you should close gates. What you are talking about is how canals operated at the end of the carrying trade, which can sometimes be considerably different to how they operated earlier.

i am not wrong, as i did not say every canal, at all times, on every lock, you just found SOME that had to be closed, i'm sure going through the Pennines is not a normal canal. The thing didn't last long anyway it closed in the 50's.

[Ray T]

.....and if a cow, sheep, dog or cat ( Person ?) etc were to fall in to a remote lock at dusk and no boats came until the next morning, the chance of finding a corpse in there would be quite high, especially in Winter...

 

or perhaps that never happens ?

 

 

Nick

 

In 20 odd years of boating I have seen several dead sheep in the cut but never in a lock.

 

A few rabbits, yes.

[Nickhlx]

In 20 odd years of boating I have seen several dead sheep in the cut but never in a lock.

 

A few rabbits, yes.

 

Perhaps the sheep were let out of the lock when the next boat did arrive ?

 

Nick

[Pluto]

i am not wrong, as i did not say every canal, at all times, on every lock, you just found SOME that had to be closed, i'm sure going through the Pennines is not a normal canal. The thing didn't last long anyway it closed in the 50's.

So that's just 150 years then. I might just have quoted the specific information about one canal, but historically all canals would have had some form of legislation which required gates to be closed. It was well established by the time canals were nationalised. Now whether boatmen took much notice is a different matter, though I have found prosecutions for incorrect operation of locks going back to the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries.

[waterworks]

So that's just 150 years then. I might just have quoted the specific information about one canal, but historically all canals would have had some form of legislation which required gates to be closed. It was well established by the time canals were nationalised. Now whether boatmen took much notice is a different matter, though I have found prosecutions for incorrect operation of locks going back to the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries.

well if you have the proof of that your going to show us, i will gladly conceed. All i said was i dont remember seeing it in the byelaws.

[nicknorman]

On the GU i don't see a tiny minority, i see about 50/50, i live here 24/7.

 

it is not lazy or selfish, and it doesn't have to be justified, your not looking at the big picture, just your own single journey. ( which is selfish ) If you allways close gates then you will never arrive at a lock that is open & ready for you, if you leave open then in theory you will get 50% of locks in your favor in the long term. It's just common sense.

I see it as a tiny minority. Having been boating since the early 70s, with a substantial increase in my annual outings in the last couple of years, covering the canals from Llangollen to London and a lot in between, I would say that its rare to come across locks whose gates have been left open other than in the knowledge that you are approaching. Maybe 1 lock in 100. That is a tiny minority in my book. I would agree that the incidence of this increases as London is approached, but that is just because there are a lot more selfish people living in the SE, and as previously mentione (maybe another thread!) behaviour breeds behaviour. Therefore I think its you who is not looking at the big picture.

 

There is no doubt that if everyone left locks open then roughly 50% of the time one could drive straight in, however lazyiness (for that's what it is) should not be the driver in how we conduct ourselves, in the same way that we do not drop paddles (except for a few so designed), do not slam gates by opening paddles before gates are reasonably well closed, etc. It is about respect for the aging infrastructure, conservation of water etc. And also complying with the requests of BW and now C&RT. And even respect for convention - convention of course being the way everyone is kept happy.

 

I am guessing that you reside permanently on the GU somewhere in the SE. Probably a CMer? and my only consolation is that, since I don't much care for the SE for the sort of reasons you are representing, and since you are unlikely to move more than a few bridges, we will never have the misfortune to have to follow you through a flight of locks.

 

I do realise that I am wasting my breath (fingers) so I'll not be partaking of this discussion with you any more.

Edited January 29, 2013 by nicknorman

[bowten]

There are times when it can be very important, other times less so.

The trouble is, complex rules would be no good. Simplest and safest to say shut all gates and paddles behind you (unless someone is in sight coming the opposite way, but shut all paddles anyway).

 

Tim

Both Tim and Nick have this right.

[Doorman]

Perhaps the sheep were let out of the lock when the next boat did arrive ?

 

Nick