Heating minefield

[Chris Pink]

Hmmm - seems like there is some copper in our system so I don't think we can use the Alde compact. Why is this so damn difficult!

 

Explain?

[Psycloud]

Explain?

 

From their website FAQ:

 

Q: Can copper parts be used in the system?

 

A: No.

 

There are aluminium contact surfaces in the boiler, and copper parts will cause corrosive galvanic action in any aluminium parts of the system.

[BEngo]

The bulkhead is between the galley and the bathroom so could mount on the kitchen side.

 

I'm almost certain the lady of the ship will be wanting the radiators working though so I suspect we will be going down the route suggested by Proper Job.

 

There are two things to decide about:

 

How to get how water (quickly in your case)?

 

How to heat the boat?

 

The answer does not have to be the same.

 

For hot water you can either store it (a calorifier heated by the engine, a neverspacherkunibasto, a diesel stove ora solid fuel stove), a stored water heatater ( e.g. Carver Traumatic) or an instantaneous water heater Morco Rinnai Vaillant etc.) All have different characteristics and costs. For me it's a Morco; but only cos that suits my lifestyle.

 

For heating there is solid fuel fire (maybe with back boiler for rads and hot water too), gas boiler for rads and hot water, neverspacherkunibasto for hot air or rads and maybe hot water. All have pros and cons. For me it's a solid fule stove ( rads but no calorifier), though if I was fitting out now it might be a diesel stove with calorifier and morco back-up.

 

What performance do you need the systems to deliver? How important are running costs? How much space do you have to spare? How easy is it to install new things, or change what is there now? If you can answer these we might make more specific suggestions.

 

N

[FadeToScarlet]

I am not sure from your post if your bulkhead location is in the bathroom or not. Just in Case....You (or anyone else) cannot legally fit an open flued instantaneous water heater (like a Morco) actually in a bathroom. This regulation also applies to houses and was introduced because so many people were killed by 'Ascot' type water heaters in bathrooms.

 

Presumably this is a new ish regulation as I have a Morco D51 in the bathroom and it has passed several BSS inspections?

[blackrose]

I have my water heated by calorifier (engine, immersion heater/shore power), valliant (like a morco) and also from my stove's backboiler (to calorifier). If you are living aboard I don't see the need to rely on any one system. The more working systems you have the better. Having had one I wouldn't bother fixing the eberspacher - they may be ok for people who visit their boats on weekends, but they aren't really reliable enough for liveaboard use.

Edited December 11, 2012 by blackrose

[nb Innisfree]

Can these Morco's feed a power shower?,

 

Strictly speaking nearly all boats with pumped hot water have power showers, the difference being low power rather than high.

[DeanS]

PsyCloud...I've sent you a PM

[Richard10002]

Whilst it seems that the BSS does not prevent it, I don't think Gas Safe engineers will fit gas water heaters unless they are room sealed i.e. they get their air from outside, and exhaust the waste gasses,nova what I can only call a two way flue.

 

I would like to be proved wrong but, after a warning from a fellow club member a few weeks ago, my research tends to conclude as above.

[Doorman]

 

Living on a boat is more comfortable when one has 'back-up' systems.

 

Regards

Ditchdabbler

 

Not only more comfortable but entirely logical.

 

To rely on only one source of heating/battery charging on a live aboard boat is asking for trouble. Imagine being moored in an isolated area in winter with only one source of heat! Our back boiler prematurely developed a leak recently and thankfully I'd installed by-pass valves in the central heating system, allowing me to continue heating the boat with the diesel heater until I'd sourced and installed a replacement back boiler.

 

Incidentally, the back boiler can be replaced without the need to strip the stove down on a Morso Squirrel 1430 multi-fuel stove, contrary to what Morso describe in their manual. It takes a bit of patience together with your partner's ability to ignore the constant cursing that's expected from the fact that the previous installer wrongfully used sealant around the fixing nuts causing the original boiler to be bonded to the back plate!

 

Losing the lovely glow from the stove only served to remind us how much we rely on it as a primary source of heat for our floating home. The fact that the stainless steel back boiler failed after only three years of service life has prompted me to re-design it using heavier and higher grade stainless steel with baffles included to maximise the heat exchange process. The standard boiler is simplistic in design and because it allows for a rear flue option, there is a catchment area between the rear of the boiler and the back plate that's perfect for collecting debris from the top mounted flue, which if allowed to become damp during 'downtime' creates an acidic blend that attacks the exposed metals.

Edited December 12, 2012 by Doorman

[Chris Pink]

is that right? I thought the forward tilt was part of the smoke path and a 'baffle' for heat going straight up the chimney? It replaces a part called the baffle plate

 

Or have you redesigned it horizontally? I am assuming you mean you've made it vertical at the back.

[Psycloud]

I think we're now going back to plan A - have a Morco fitted to heat the water and next year we'll see about a full heating system. We have only been on here a week and we do have an oil filled electric heater which, whilst quite expensive to run, probably isn't going to cost as much as a whole new system and the running costs associated.

[Ronniesonic]

I think we're now going back to plan A - have a Morco fitted to heat the water and next year we'll see about a full heating system. We have only been on here a week and we do have an oil filled electric heater which, whilst quite expensive to run, probably isn't going to cost as much as a whole new system and the running costs associated.

 

 

Hi Cloudy- Adopt KISS!

Stove at front, little 'Salamander Stoves' 'Pipsqueak' model in rear cabin (very small & completely ace mundo for the few weeks you need heat at the rear).

Then instant hot water via a Morco. I do not do complicated.

 

My Morco sits on bulk from Kitchen to Bathroom.

 

Keep having fun & dig in buddy

 

EDIT_ other stoves are available & I have no association with them at Salamander

Edited December 12, 2012 by Ronniesonic

[Psycloud]

Hi Cloudy- Adopt KISS!

Stove at front, little 'Salamander Stoves' 'Pipsqueak' model in rear cabin (very small & completely ace mundo for the few weeks you need heat at the rear).

Then instant hot water via a Morco. I do not do complicated.

 

My Morco sits on bulk from Kitchen to Bathroom.

 

Keep having fun & dig in buddy

 

EDIT_ other stoves are available & I have no association with them at Salamander

 

Hiya Unfortunately we can't fit a Pipsqueak in at the rear (ooer!) as it is a double berth sleeping cabin with just the walkway between the 2 beds. They look awesome though!

[Doorman]

is that right? I thought the forward tilt was part of the smoke path and a 'baffle' for heat going straight up the chimney? It replaces a part called the baffle plate

 

Or have you redesigned it horizontally? I am assuming you mean you've made it vertical at the back.

 

No Chris,

 

I intend to re-design the boiler and have one manufactured to my own specification in future. On this occasion, I bit the bullet and bought a standard replacement from Morso given the time of year and the fact that although we have a Mikuni diesel heater on board, it is no substitute for the heat produced from a lovely log burner combined with the benefit of a back boiler. As described previously, I shall design an alternative boiler without the gradient to the rear for accommodating the rear flue option. This is unessessary when using the top flue outlet and only serves to collect the unwanted flue debris.

 

We are in sunny Gran Canaria at the moment, so I can't furnish a drawing with a more detailed description of how I intend to maximise the boiler's potential, other than the fact that it will be vertical at the back allowing clearance for the projecting casting that accommodates the rear flue spigot, but will retain the forward tilt as this is an integral part of the stove as you describe and does in fact substitute as a baffle plate.

 

My main concern apart from the debris collection facility of the standard unit, is the gauge and standard of the stainless steel material used by Morso, together with the omission of baffles inside the boiler compartment to allow the water to collect sufficient heat whilst passing through en route to radiators etc., I use a Jabsco resirculation pump that is set at its slowest speed, but still feel as though the water doesn't get enough time for the heat exchange process to work efficiently. The inclusion of the baffles should solve this problem as well as a set of fins welded to the heat collection side to maximise the surface area of the boiler, similar to those on an air cooled engine but in reverse if you like.

 

Only time will tell if all of this and the added expense proves worthwhile, but I'm pretty confident that an improved design will pay dividends not only in the efficiency, but durability of the boiler.

Edited December 12, 2012 by Doorman

[canals are us?]

On my new boat purchase the only way of heating the boat was an awful diesel bubble stove and to heat the hot water just the engine to heat the calorifier.

I have found the oil stove to be faulty, filling the boat with smoke out of the bottom rear somewhere.

On my 50ft narrowboat it's rather cold in the rear bedroom.

 

I have ripped out the oil stove and installed a tempoary old solid fuel stove which is warmer than the oil as I had to leave the doors open to let the smoke out and heat!!

I don't keep the solid fuel stove it in at night (picture below) yet as the stove is about 60-70 years old.

 

 

I have no regrets to see the back of the oil stove. I have ordered a new solid fuel stove and delivery is expected in the 2nd week of January.

 

I plan that the new stove will heat 2 rads and the calorifier. I will plumb a seperate small rad in the showeroom off the engine/calorifier circuit and will also install an immersion to the calorifier.

 

It will be lovely to be warm

 

James

Edited December 12, 2012 by canals are us?

[MtB]

Presumably this is a new ish regulation as I have a Morco D51 in the bathroom and it has passed several BSS inspections?

 

BSS inspections check for compliance with BSS specifications. Open flue appliances in bathrooms contravene the Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998, but not BSS afaik. No idea why not.

 

The GSIUR came into force in... wait for it... 1998! So if your heater was fitted since 1998, the installers were in breach assuming the boat was a liveaboard at the time. Leisure boats do not have to comply with GSIUR, they fall outside the scope. Take your chances if you like.

 

MtB

[Chris Pink]

No Chris,

 

I intend to re-design the boiler and have one manufactured to my own specification in future. On this occasion, I bit the bullet and bought a standard replacement from Morso given the time of year and the fact that although we have a Mikuni diesel heater on board, it is no substitute for the heat produced from a lovely log burner combined with the benefit of a back boiler. As described previously, I shall design an alternative boiler without the gradient to the rear for accommodating the rear flue option. This is unessessary when using the top flue outlet and only serves to collect the unwanted flue debris.

 

We are in sunny Gran Canaria at the moment, so I can't furnish a drawing with a more detailed description of how I intend to maximise the boiler's potential, other than the fact that it will be vertical at the back allowing clearance for the projecting casting that accommodates the rear flue spigot, but will retain the forward tilt as this is an integral part of the stove as you describe and does in fact substitute as a baffle plate.

 

My main concern apart from the debris collection facility of the standard unit, is the gauge and standard of the stainless steel material used by Morso, together with the omission of baffles inside the boiler compartment to allow the water to collect sufficient heat whilst passing through en route to radiators etc., I use a Jabsco resirculation pump that is set at its slowest speed, but still feel as though the water doesn't get enough time for the heat exchange process to work efficiently. The inclusion of the baffles should solve this problem as well as a set of fins welded to the heat collection side to maximise the surface area of the boiler, similar to those on an air cooled engine but in reverse if you like.

 

Only time will tell if all of this and the added expense proves worthwhile, but I'm pretty confident that an improved design will pay dividends not only in the efficiency, but durability of the boiler.

 

 

Interesting idea. It may be worth getting a few made, cut down costs and there's a lot of squirrels out there. I wonder if, as well as a baffle the tilt gets more heat into the boiler. I know on my Rayburn the boiler works better when the hottest part of the fire is at the back and stops almost entirely if there's ash buildup at the rear of the firebox

[Richard10002]

BSS inspections check for compliance with BSS specifications. Open flue appliances in bathrooms contravene the Gas Safety (Installation and Use) Regulations 1998, but not BSS afaik. No idea why not.

 

The GSIUR came into force in... wait for it... 1998! So if your heater was fitted since 1998, the installers were in breach assuming the boat was a liveaboard at the time. Leisure boats do not have to comply with GSIUR, they fall outside the scope. Take your chances if you like.

 

MtB

 

Hi Mike,

 

Can you comment on my post where I have found that the BSS has no issue with non- room sealed gas water heaters, but that Gas Safe Engineers will only fit room sealed heaters.

 

Which seems to mean that non room sealed gas water heaters can no longer be fitted to narrow boats? Or could a "competent person" fit one, in a manner acceptable to the BSS and insurers?

 

It might be a bit of thread drift but, as the OP is considering a non room sealed water heater, perhaps not?

[Doorman]

Interesting idea. It may be worth getting a few made, cut down costs and there's a lot of squirrels out there. I wonder if, as well as a baffle the tilt gets more heat into the boiler. I know on my Rayburn the boiler works better when the hottest part of the fire is at the back and stops almost entirely if there's ash buildup at the rear of the firebox

 

I imagine that once the new design is manufactured, commissioned and a comparison test undertaken, that will be the most prudent time to consider offering the new type of boiler to a potential market. As you say, there are many Squirrels out there and not only on boats. I shall measure the heat output from the standard boiler with a typical load of solid fuel then carry out the same measurement with the alternative unit. If as expected, there is sufficient increase in efficiency to justify the additional outlay, together with the projected higher service life due to a heavier gauge and higher standard of stainless steel, then the expense will be worthwhile.

 

The cost of the standard boiler was £200 including delivery to our local marina chandlery, which I thought was a little excessive for a service life of three years. I have sourced a stainless steel exhaust manufacturer for my diesel generator and although it will be fabricated from a narrower gauge material compared to the boiler, it will be made to my specification and only cost £160 with a lifetime guarantee!

 

I do believe that Morso are playing the 'built in obsolescence' game with their boilers and the value of after sales spares to their net profit results will probably illustrate and justify their rationale.

Edited December 13, 2012 by Doorman

[MtB]

Hi Mike,

 

Can you comment on my post where I have found that the BSS has no issue with non- room sealed gas water heaters, but that Gas Safe Engineers will only fit room sealed heaters.

 

I thought I already had! Maybe it was in another thread.

 

Gas Safe engineers (technicians to be more accurate) generally have a pretty poor grasp of the minutie of the various regulations, preferring to refuse to fit anything they think sounds faintly dodgy. When challenged, they are generally unable to say why, other than an intelectually sloppy 'its against the regs mate'.

 

If you ask a Gas Safe bod who knows his stuff to fit an open flue water heater his first question will be 'is it a residential boat?'. And if the answer is 'yes' then the next question will be 'where in the boat do you want it fitted?'. He is looking for an answer of 'not in a bathroom or bedroom', in which case he will go ahead and fit it. If you say 'leisure boat', then he will be able to fit it regardless.

 

However if it is a non-resi boat he will probably still decline to fit in a bathroom or bedroom because this is plain common sense, even though compliant with BSS. If he chose to accept the job and install in a bathroom or bedroom in a leisure boat and someone got killed, the HSE would have a hard time making a case to prosecute him. Most installers would prefer not to take that risk of possible prosecution though, or more accurately, take the risk of killing a customer through a shortcoming in the BSS specs.

 

Which seems to mean that non room sealed gas water heaters can no longer be fitted to narrow boats?

 

Incorrect. You just need to find a properly informed installer. Only my good manners prevent me from describing most gas bods as ignorant self-interested pillocks

 

Or could a "competent person" fit one, in a manner acceptable to the BSS and insurers?

 

Yes to BSS. You'd have to ask the insurer you have in mind. I can't know their attitude to who carries out gas installations, I bet each is different!

 

Hope that helps,

MtB

[Richard10002]

I thought I already had! Maybe it was in another thread.

 

Snip

 

Gas Safe engineers (technicians to be more accurate) generally have a pretty poor grasp of the minutie of the various regulations, preferring to refuse to fit anything they think sounds faintly

 

Hope that helps,

MtB

 

I think it must have been another thread - I think I've read all of this one, and didn't see it. I've also read around this a bit, and reached the conclusion I've reached, having initially been warned off by a club member, who had also heard it "somewhere"

 

So it helps a great deal. I'll have a word with the few Gas Safe LPG bods that work on boats and are nearby - we'll see how it goes.

 

Would it be possible to get a definitive answer in writing from Gas Safe? Or is each installer expected to interpret the rules to suit their own risk profile?

 

Thanks for the help.

 

Richard

[Teadaemon]

I think it must have been another thread - I think I've read all of this one, and didn't see it. I've also read around this a bit, and reached the conclusion I've reached, having initially been warned off by a club member, who had also heard it "somewhere"

 

So it helps a great deal. I'll have a word with the few Gas Safe LPG bods that work on boats and are nearby - we'll see how it goes.

 

Would it be possible to get a definitive answer in writing from Gas Safe? Or is each installer expected to interpret the rules to suit their own risk profile?

 

Thanks for the help.

 

Richard

 

The legal requirements are fairly straightforward and as Mike has already explained. There is however nothing to stop a Gas Safe registered person (or indeed anyone else) from refusing a job for any reason they like. If they're not happy to fit an open-flued water heater then there's no way to make them do so.

 

Personally, if I wanted to fit an instantaneous gas water heater on a boat I'd pay the extra couple of hundred quid and get a room-sealed one.

[Looby Loo]

I have to say I'm finding this thread very interesting. The boat I am hoping to buy , if the owner ever moves it so it can get surveyed (another story- don't ask ) only has a calorifier for the hot water (no immersion) so sorting that out will be the number one priority.

[ditchcrawler]

I have to say I'm finding this thread very interesting. The boat I am hoping to buy , if the owner ever moves it so it can get surveyed (another story- don't ask ) only has a calorifier for the hot water (no immersion) so sorting that out will be the number one priority.

Not all calorifiers have an immersion heater boss.

[Looby Loo]

Not all calorifiers have an immersion heater boss.

 

The one on the boat doesn't so new calorifier needed I think. I'm also planning on getting a morco water heater and a back boiler on the squirrel installed with radiators in the back bedrooms of the boat if that's at all possible and a heated towel rail in the bathroom. Lots of ways to heat water then and also some heat a bit further down the boat.