winter moorings

[dmr]

and, as I understand it, the first couple of years the price was reasonable. I have a friend who overwinters every year on the winter moorings in Bath and whereas he was quite happy the first couple of years he now feels totally ripped off.

 

I am glad to report he has never succumbed to that perfidious boater-envy mentioned a few posts above. Maybe it's spread by the diesel bug.

 

@ dmr: Most people are capable of making their own decisions for their own reasons without constantly looking at other people's plates to see if they've been given more chips. "Walk a mile in his shoes before making judgement" as they say.

 

Chris

 

Please don't assume that I am one of those who worries about "somebody else getting something for free".

(I am a continuous cruiser so 90% of boaters feel that I am getting something for free!)

You say that your friend now feels totally ripped off...I do not want to be in that position myself.

I can make my own decisions but we live in a society, not in isolation, and so our decisions will be influenced by those around us.

If I pay for a winter mooring on the K&A then I will feel ripped off, but if I was up in the North Midlands then I would pay, because thats what you do up there. In fact there are many things that I do differently on the K&A for similar reasons, but that could be the topic of an entertaining thread another day!

I have done a large part of the K&A this winter and note that only a handful of boats have taken a winter mooring this year, and that the majority of these appear to be unoccupied.

We

[GUMPY]

Blimey you beat me to it. I too used winter moorings over twenty years ago. Boating is not and never has been cheap nor is it meant to be an answer to affordable housing. We all in life have to pay our way with taxes etc. Mooring costa are part of boating, if you aint moving around the syatem then you need to have a mooring, thats the way it is. Lots of people would probably like to run around in Aston martins but cannot afford one so dont have one, if you want to go boating then costs have to be met or dont buy a boat. I love to see ccers on the system, thats what boating is about but if you decide to stay put for whatever length of time wether winter or summer surely you should expect to pay for that time. Winter moorings should be priced monthly at 1/12th of the local rates being paid by people with permenant moorings so for instance if you moor up for 4 months you pay a third of one years mooring costs.

 

As Ive said before I used to weekend from March to October and then abandon it for the winter, If I was not living on it now I would still do the same, I expect there are quite a few that would.

[GoodGurl]

instead of paying a blanket fee of say £200 on top of your license why not have the option at renewal as to whether you want to take a winter mooring at say £50 per month this would give cart an extra £50 pm if you choose to take the whole 5 months (nov - march), this would apply to people without a home mooring only. i wouldn't mind paying the blanket fee but sometimes i don't want to stay in one place for an extended time.

[churchward]

The simplest idea so far (and the best for boaters) is Chris's scheme to simply quash the time limits in winter. The problem with this is that there would then be nothing in it for CaRT except the loss of such winter mooring income as they currently have and they ain't gonna wear that. So somewhere along the line there has to be cash changing hands and large numbers of boaters ain't gonna wear that. As for self policing, the problem is I think that if some abuse a system the natural reaction is not to kick up complaining to an empty void for enforcement that ain't gonna happen, it's to join them.

We are left with a choice to either purchase a service or go without i.e. the status quo. Another tot for the navigator, this is not going to be an easy course to steer.

I would be happy with that as long as what "Quash the time limits" mean change any short term visitor mooring to a maximum of 14 days like everywhere else. It would also need to be for all boaters not just those with CC licences. There are at least some leisure boaters that like to get out in the winter too.

 

The "winter" period could be just the worst 3 months ie Dec to end of Feb or extend that to beginning of Nov to end of Feb.

 

Then if someone wishes to stay longer in a place they need to get a winter mooring for a month or more and pay a reasonable rate that is in line with an average online leisure mooring.

[cotswoldsman]

instead of paying a blanket fee of say £200 on top of your license why not have the option at renewal as to whether you want to take a winter mooring at say £50 per month this would give cart an extra £50 pm if you choose to take the whole 5 months (nov - march), this would apply to people without a home mooring only. i wouldn't mind paying the blanket fee but sometimes i don't want to stay in one place for an extended time.

 

So that is the same as pricing winter moorings at £50 pm it would be nice to see winter moorings priced at £50 pm but I would think that the admin for that would be to much with people coming and going. The beauty of the one payment and then allowing people to stay on a 14 day mooring for up to 28 days is that it has no costs.

[jenlyn]

This is what I suspected and I also suspect there will be others that feel the same.

I suspect there will be others who feel the same, hence airing the ideas for feedback.

[alan_fincher]

According to Alan earlier, they are. There are many examples of marinas, where demand once outstripped supply standing half empty.

To be fair, though, I have at no point said my local marinas have a lot of spare capacity. I have said that a lot of live-aboards have left to go on the towpath, citing escalating costs as a reason, (and before it became BWML owned, our local private marina started levying large "high usage" charges on those living aboard.

 

In fact I don't know the current position, (BWML now own it), but by observation it seems to remain pretty full, despite eye-watering tariffs. This is probably because of where we are, and the lack of a lot of competition.

 

It's hard to compare to BW towpath moorings in the area, because there are very few, and the nearest sites almost never yield anything for auction. The nearest ones that consistently have vacancies advertised are in Leighton Buzzard. Most, but not all, let at this fairly basic site, but usually only at, or close to reserve. For comparison the "reserve" on the 20 metre slot currently advertised there is £1,660 - so that is about £138 per month for a completely unserviced mooring, not secure, and a degree of local rowdiness at weekends.

 

I personally think that is a hell of a lot, but they still seem to let most of them. £138 per month would make your suggested figure of £70 a month for a winter mooring seem a relative bargain, but your number seems far more reasonable to me.

 

and, as I understand it, the first couple of years the price was reasonable. I have a friend who overwinters every year on the winter moorings in Bath and whereas he was quite happy the first couple of years he now feels totally ripped off.

 

It would actually be good to know, for each of the years BW have done this exercise, what the rate was for winter moorings, (by which I mean as a percentage comparison to equivalent long term ones), and how many they sold each year.

 

Is that something we are in a position to find out, please John?

[grey wolf]

I have to say this, sorry.

Over the past few weeks, ive learnt several things, some people live on boats, because they absolutely have no option. Dont bother debating that if you dont get it, its a fact. There seem to be a few boaters who are so far up their own butts, (note I said few) they either prefer to ignore the situation or come up with a stupid suggestion that these people should not be on the canals.

On top of that, I have just spent nearly two hours talking to an IWA member, of authority, who has stated the IWA wants livaboards off the canal. Unbelievable!

 

That would be a very sad day. a lot of blogers are livaboard and like all parts of the boating community the whole would be poorer by their removal

[matty40s]

So that is the same as pricing winter moorings at £50 pm it would be nice to see winter moorings priced at £50 pm but I would think that the admin for that would be to much with people coming and going. The beauty of the one payment and then allowing people to stay on a 14 day mooring for up to 28 days is that it has no costs.

The Winter of 2010 ended at the New Year of 2011 down South.

It is widely remembered for it's very subzero temps and thick ice along with snow, however, come Jan/Feb was the usual mild grey drizzle we expect in winter.

I escaped the ice by the 2nd week of Jan then carried on CC-ing. I had done the entire Lee and Stort Navigations by the end of March, getting back to Stonebridge to see the sight of every single boat on the towpath - 20 plus (except me) getting overstay notices on the 1st April, even the 2 that had paid winter mooring fees (for 5 months).

[GoodGurl]

 

It would actually be good to know, for each of the years BW have done this exercise, what the rate was for winter moorings, (by which I mean as a percentage comparison to equivalent long term ones), and how many they sold each year.

 

Is that something we are in a position to find out, please John?

i found this 2006/7 BW prices includes winter and long term moorings HERE go to page 4 past all the CC bumpf.

also here is a completed tender XLS file, this is a download and contains all completed tenders for 2007/8 EXCEL FILE

Edited December 12, 2012 by GoodGurl

[alan_fincher]

i found this 2006/7 BW prices includes winter and long term moorings HERE go to page 4 past all the CC bumpf.

That would appear to indicate that in 2006/7 Winter Moorings were priced at the same rate as Long Term Moorings at the same place.

 

Whereas nowadays they seem to be marked up by 20%.

 

So although they have gone up, we can see that 6 years ago they were still no less expensive than long term moorings at the same location, (on a pro-rata basis of course).

 

Quite how that squares with several claims made that that far back you could get them far more cheaply I'm not sure.

 

Except that, (despite the obvious existence of a price list), some seem to have claimed doing individual deals.

 

It all seems a bit odd.

 

As far as properly published prices go, the move to go from parity with long term moorings to a 20% mark-up over long term moorings does seem particularly hard to justify!

[Trix]

 

Over the past few weeks, ive learnt several things, some people live on boats, because they absolutely have no option. Dont bother debating that if you dont get it, its a fact.

 

Here is my short story which backs up the above. I was in the process of saving to buy a boat with the idea of moving on to it at some point, when my land lady comes round and says "I want the house back" , "when?" I say " "tomorrow she says". Luckily I had found a boat I liked and had the money (loan) to purchase but not the money for a residential mooring, the boat already had a new survey so the sale was rushed through and after a few nights in a hotel we are now on the boat. I have searched everywhere for a reasonable mooring but there are none so we will CC . My work means I have to stay within the M25 but I think there is enough water so I do not have to break any rules. A mooring over winter for a hundred pounds or so would be fantastic for us as I work all day on a motorbike for a large breakdown recovery service and this would mean we could moor close to where the bike is for the worst months of the year. In summer its not such an issue. This morning I traveled from Devizes to London by bike in -5 conditions with freezing fog , not much fun. I was looking earlier at a mooring in Packet boat Marina residential is £7000 I also looked at others for £4500 but with very few facilities. So although I was looking to move onto a boat I was forced into it and now have no other option but to CC. Don't get me wrong I know I could have got a bedsit for the loan payment price but at least at the end of four years the boat is mine and then I can afford a residential mooring. Just my thoughts and well done to Jenlyn for trying to help out those of us who have too CC.

 

and Happy Xmas all pump outs , cassette , CCers , PMers, Residentials etc etc etc

Edited December 12, 2012 by Trix

[matty40s]

 

 

and Happy Xmas all pump outs , cassette , CCers , PMers, Residentials etc etc etc

Hi Trix, fantastic news that you are now on a boat, and you will love CC-ing with the flexibility of transport that you have.

I was in Devizes last Saturday looking at the local area as I may be cruising down that way soon, it's stunning scenery.

London is easily cruisable as a CC-er from the top of the Lee and Stort to Milton Keynes, which will in no way put you on the CaRT radar

[Wild Is The Wind]

 

and, at the risk of me sounding like a broken record, i think the unserviced towpath mooring game is a racket. They should either be upgraded to include services or have their price dropped dramatically. It is even moot as to whether they are legal (as in the restriction of their use to permit holders). It is they that stand in the way of achieving agreement over the other issues.

 

I'm trying to catch up with this thread and was just thinking it might be a good idea if CRT could address the issue of 'affordability and availability' of towpath moorings at the same time. It has been said in another thread that a percentage of CCrs want one, many feel they are too expensive, often lack access to services, there are not enough in many areas and CRT do take a long time to advertise vacancies when they do arise.

 

It might be alot to take on alongside new solutions for winter moorings, but dealing with both problems at once may be beneficial in the longer term.

[DeanS]

If someone wants/needs a mooring then by all means charge a reasonable fee, however, those who don't want, shouldn't have to fork out.

 

 

CAN WE ALL PLEASE PRINT THIS OUT AND FRAME THIS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jenlyn]

I'm trying to catch up with this thread and was just thinking it might be a good idea if CRT could address the issue of 'affordability and availability' of towpath moorings at the same time. It has been said in another thread that a percentage of CCrs want one, many feel they are too expensive, often lack access to services, there are not enough in many areas and CRT do take a long time to advertise vacancies when they do arise.

 

It might be alot to take on alongside new solutions for winter moorings, but dealing with both problems at once may be beneficial in the longer term.

The permanent moorings are all but untouchable as far as the auction process goes. Robin Evans will not budge on this. The NABO chairman verified that as well. From what I understand, all advice about the process was against it, yet there will not be any change.

[alan_fincher]

The permanent moorings are all but untouchable as far as the auction process goes. Robin Evans will not budge on this. The NABO chairman verified that as well. From what I understand, all advice about the process was against it, yet there will not be any change.

John Dodwell has also defended it on multiple occasions, too, unfortunately, so I can't see them budging on it.

 

It stinks.

 

On the one hand they continue to defend it by arguing they are letting the market determine a fair rate, but on the other hand they are not prepared to actually let the market determine a rate at all, because they set reserve prices at 90% of the figure they would be, if there was no auction.

 

This was a very ill-conceived idea under BW, that has benefited neither the supplier nor the customer, but whilst the CRT transition could have given the opportunity to think about reversing it, they continue to staunchly defend what is in my view not defensible.

[Tuscan]

John Dodwell has also defended it on multiple occasions, too, unfortunately, so I can't see them budging on it.

 

It stinks.

 

On the one hand they continue to defend it by arguing they are letting the market determine a fair rate, but on the other hand they are not prepared to actually let the market determine a rate at all, because they set reserve prices at 90% of the figure they would be, if there was no auction.

 

This was a very ill-conceived idea under BW, that has benefited neither the supplier nor the customer, but whilst the CRT transition could have given the opportunity to think about reversing it, they continue to staunchly defend what is in my view not defensible.

 

 

I think the market is determining a fair rate in as much as so many are not being taken up, eventually CRT will have to take on board that in many locations they either have to provide some facilities to warrant the price or adjust accordingly. Will take a while yet I fear, especially perhaps if they receive these extra funds from the suggested CC license increase.

[Phoenix_V]

John Dodwell has also defended it on multiple occasions, too, unfortunately, so I can't see them budging on it.

 

It stinks.

 

On the one hand they continue to defend it by arguing they are letting the market determine a fair rate, but on the other hand they are not prepared to actually let the market determine a rate at all, because they set reserve prices at 90% of the figure they would be, if there was no auction.

 

This was a very ill-conceived idea under BW, that has benefited neither the supplier nor the customer, but whilst the CRT transition could have given the opportunity to think about reversing it, they continue to staunchly defend what is in my view not defensible.

 

So everyone is against it, but CRT continue to ignore their customers, and the council are no better.

 

We havent really moved on since "we know best BW" have we.

[jenlyn]

So everyone is against it, but CRT continue to ignore their customers, and the council are no better.

 

We havent really moved on since "we know best BW" have we.

But they have made it vey clear they wish to. Preferably with help from us, that has been made absolutely clear.

[DeanS]

Since widebeams cant traverse the entire system, but are stuck either north or south, perhaps we should receive a discount on licence fees ? Just a thought?

[Chris Pink]

Though that sounds good their position on towpath moorings belies this. It is also unclear - ie they have made no attempt at dialogue with boaters who are not only their customers but own the system they manage - why they hold the position they hold.

 

In the meantime miles of towpath moorings go unlet.

 

This has not only the effect of reducing CRT income it puts those miles of towpath mooring out of bounds to anyone.

[jenlyn]

Since widebeams cant traverse the entire system, but are stuck either north or south, perhaps we should receive a discount on licence fees ? Just a thought?

Not really, I bought my widebeam knowing the score and therefore accepting it.

[cotswoldsman]

So everyone is against it, but CRT continue to ignore their customers, and the council are no better.

 

We havent really moved on since "we know best BW" have we.

 

What have you done to get them to change there mind? IMO they are listening to customers, yes they still have a long way to go but the process has started. It is certainly on the agenda to be discussed at out Northern Boaters Meeting.

[Chris Pink]

Since widebeams cant traverse the entire system, but are stuck either north or south, perhaps we should receive a discount on licence fees ? Just a thought?

 

 

Correct me if I'm wrong but this is hardly a surprise is it?

 

You knew, when you bought a wide beam that you would pay the same amount (not twice as much because you're twice as wide note).

 

Maybe you made the wrong choice, sell up and get a narrow boat and then you won't feel so hard done by.