Hand painted or Vinyl?

[LEO]

I am sure the OP would be delighted to know that you think he's as good as vinyl!

 

I think you can tell up close.

 

Hi,

 

Leo No2 looks excellent - I am a fan of signwriting - but signwriters need to work in the dry so a covered dock of some sort needs to be rented for a day or so, and the Marina owner may well charge for an outside specialist working in the marina - all adds to the cost.

 

Pre-cut signs can be applied quickly and are not so 'weather dependant'.

 

Sorry, but pre-cut can never beat work by a signwriter, I have just had a boat signwritten - name - 11 big letters each side, BW No's on bows and rear (All drop shadow) - £325 including travelling (boat was docked for re-painting) - seems fair to me.

 

Interestingly, we had one boat signwritten in mid summer and the guy was unable to work as it was too hot (paint dried too quickly) - you can't win.

 

L

[KenK]

Hmmm - I used the Funkymonkey site to get that quote. I will definitely shop around.

 

Thanks

 

David

 

Try a local vehicle vinylwrap company, we had a trip boat done this year, all the sign writing including the Queens Diamond Jubilee logo cost £220 fitted.

 

Ken

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

One deciding factor when I bought my boat was its hand painted signs. There are no imperfections but the character of hand and eye from the sign writer. I am guessing they were painted close to 30 years ago, (looking at the paperwork on when the boat was put together). They should certainly last another 30. I'm lucky they were on the boat when I got it, I couldn't afford to have them done.

 

But my reason for posting is to ask on advice for looking after the paint work and bringing out the colours. Obviously not as bright as they used to be, I'd like to stop them fading as much as I can.

Tried turtle wax. Seems best so far.

 

Also, a hand painted sign by an amateur or boat owner with no previous experience of sign writing can often look good. More personal. I've seen really creative, amusing and cool stuff. Sometimes just 'whacked on'.

(I've seen some shit stuff too mind)

 

Any advice on looking after paint work would be appreciated.

[dave moore]

Hi Goliath

30 years is a bloody good innings for paintwork!! Polish will help to preserve the colour, I tend to use Craftmaster Carnuba Wax on my boat.Silicone polishes can cause problems at repaint time,so I avoid them.

 

Another option is varnish (altho' any polish must be removed first with white spirit).I offer this with some reservation in that once a panel is varnished it must be maintained and recoated from time to time, particularly before the old stuff crazes. This will certainly deepen the colours and bring out the richness of the original. I've just come from the Stourbridge Gathering and I've seen a boat I wrote about 20 years ago - the owner has varnished the lettered panels and they are still looking good, albeit a lot darker due to the yellowing that old varnish has. I'd reccommend a good quality marine varnish (again, I'm a Craftmaster fan). Blackfriars is good too - but nothing with polyeurathanes in, they dry too hard and can be inflexible. PM me for any specific help if you need to.

 

Thanks to all the previous contributors for their thoughts - any others??

 

Cheers

 

Dave

[blackrose]

I think the 'issue' is that you don't see all the 'machine generated' stuff regularly.

 

Really? My solid fuel stove, carpet, TV, windows, even the oak faced ply on the walls is made by machine or at least has a high degree of mechanical input in its production. I see all this stuff every day.

Edited October 20, 2012 by blackrose

[boathunter]

Yes, some things are worth paying for. Justifying all your decisions based on cost alone leads to an emptier life IMO. I'd put hand painted signage along with bespoke well-crafted interior woodwork among them. I don't even have a boat yet but I know what I like.

 

If you do go for hand painted signage, it's not just the paint you get is it? You get to meet someone interesting, make them tea and generally bug them with all kinds of daft boat related questions. Within reason obviously - they do have work to do.

[Guest]

Yes, some things are worth paying for. Justifying all your decisions based on cost alone leads to an emptier life IMO. I'd put hand painted signage along with bespoke well-crafted interior woodwork among them. I don't even have a boat yet but I know what I like.

 

If you do go for hand painted signage, it's not just the paint you get is it? You get to meet someone interesting, make them tea and generally bug them with all kinds of daft boat related questions. Within reason obviously - they do have work to do.

 

My experience of talking to sign writers while they are actually working is that you very quickly and politely (and understandably) get the message that they need you to belt up while they concentrate on a quite difficult task that requires concentration....

 

The ones I've met don't mind you watching though as long as you keep your mouth shut.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

Hi Goliath

30 years is a bloody good innings for paintwork!! Polish will help to preserve the colour, I tend to use Craftmaster Carnuba Wax on my boat.Silicone polishes can cause problems at repaint time,so I avoid them.

 

Another option is varnish (altho' any polish must be removed first with white spirit).I offer this with some reservation in that once a panel is varnished it must be maintained and recoated from time to time, particularly before the old stuff crazes. This will certainly deepen the colours and bring out the richness of the original. I've just come from the Stourbridge Gathering and I've seen a boat I wrote about 20 years ago - the owner has varnished the lettered panels and they are still looking good, albeit a lot darker due to the yellowing that old varnish has. I'd reccommend a good quality marine varnish (again, I'm a Craftmaster fan). Blackfriars is good too - but nothing with polyeurathanes in, they dry too hard and can be inflexible. PM me for any specific help if you need to.

 

Thanks to all the previous contributors for their thoughts - any others??

 

Cheers

 

Dave

Thanks. Ill go for the wax. Won't varnish for the reasons you state. Anyway I'd probably make a pig's ear of it!

Something for the future, when I can afford a professional, maybe

When I've worked out how to post a picture ill PM you.

I'm assuming close to 30 years. But the paint work may have been done sometime after the boat build. It's certainly has an 'old school' look with lovely detailed highlights.

I'm guessing spray painted with hand brush detail. ?

Will be interested to hear your thoughts

Cheers

[luctor et emergo]

My experience of talking to sign writers while they are actually working is that you very quickly and politely (and understandably) get the message that they need you to belt up while they concentrate on a quite difficult task that requires concentration....

 

The ones I've met don't mind you watching though as long as you keep your mouth shut.

 

Well, the painter who is currently painting my panels certainly doesn't keep shtum whilst he paints..

 

(Pictures to follow, but sofar I'm very happy with how it looks)

[GSer]

My view is from a slightly different angle.

 

I work as an engraver, i use cnc style engraving machines to reproduce lettering, logos and designs on varied materials, Mrs Gser is also an engraver but she engraves using hand held gravers, like alot of people used to make lino cuts at school. We both work in our own engraving business. I can make a reasonable stab at copying her hand engraving techniques, but there is no way i can recreate the 'soul' and art that Jeanette can add to a design with a quick swoop of a graver, sure i can copy that design and recreate it a hundred times all exactly the same but they still don't have the ' x factor' that makes, hand created artwork so special, forget application practicality or fiscal constraints, real hand produced craft skills are unbeatable IMO.

 

Luckily as a team we work well together and can enhance most projects with a combination of both skill sets, just like a sign shop that uses both vinyl and hand painted techniques will be able to fullfill most orders they are faced with with style.

 

Vinyl lettering techniques were developed to reduce the skill needed to achieve an end product, and to produce that product at higher profit levels. It achieves this but what it looses is the soul and personal imput most craftspeople include in their work naturally.

 

Paul

[Ray T]

I have recently shown pictures of the great crested grebe we have on the side of CF recently so I won't bore folks with them again. But I don't think the result could be achieved in vinyl.

 

I have painted the Castles Scenes on the back doors myself, this being my second attempt of painting after doing a "Roses & Castles course with Terence Edgar.

 

The roses in the mid panels are vinyl stick on. I did this at the time for expediency and I was not sure I could paint flowers.

 

Whilst a man running up the tow path may not notice the quality of the roses, to me they lack character, depth and indviduality.

 

One of my projects next year is to paint my own roses.

 

 

For me sign writing wins over vinyl every time.

 

 

[Guest]

Hi Goliath

30 years is a bloody good innings for paintwork!! Polish will help to preserve the colour, I tend to use Craftmaster Carnuba Wax on my boat.Silicone polishes can cause problems at repaint time,so I avoid them.

 

Another option is varnish (altho' any polish must be removed first with white spirit).I offer this with some reservation in that once a panel is varnished it must be maintained and recoated from time to time, particularly before the old stuff crazes. This will certainly deepen the colours and bring out the richness of the original. I've just come from the Stourbridge Gathering and I've seen a boat I wrote about 20 years ago - the owner has varnished the lettered panels and they are still looking good, albeit a lot darker due to the yellowing that old varnish has. I'd reccommend a good quality marine varnish (again, I'm a Craftmaster fan). Blackfriars is good too - but nothing with polyeurathanes in, they dry too hard and can be inflexible. PM me for any specific help if you need to.

 

Thanks to all the previous contributors for their thoughts - any others??

 

Cheers

 

Dave

I have often wondered if this carnuba wax based polish is suitable for boats? My late dad used this on cars when I was a sprog.

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B003SEXTYY/ref=asc_df_B003SEXTYY10202418?smid=A3181K2E9VHT0E&tag=googlecouk06-21&linkCode=asn&creative=22218&creativeASIN=B003SEXTYY

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

I have often wondered if this carnuba wax based polish is suitable for boats? My late dad used this on cars when I was a sprog.

 

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B003SEXTYY/ref=asc_df_B003SEXTYY10202418?smid=A3181K2E9VHT0E&tag=googlecouk06-21&linkCode=asn&creative=22218&creativeASIN=B003SEXTYY

Ah! Cheers Catweasel,

You've saved me having to look for it.

Ill let you know how I get on

Much obliged

Glenn

[steven wilkinson]

I did hear somewhere that this carnuba wax is edible! or I might be mistaken!

[TUGBOAT]

A few thoughts

 

In my view it is horses for courses if you have a Boat that suits Vinal then go with it. simply roll it on and job done.

On the other hand if you want something that stands out then go for Sighnwtiting we did and it looks supurb and gets lots of comments and it is surprising how many people can recognise Phils work as we can recognise other painters work including yours Dave!.

We had Phil scumble and decorate our back cabin and 8 sets of doors and it looks amazing and all the side doors are different something you will not find to easy with Vinal. and not at an extortionate price either ( you will pay more P/Hour at your local Garage to service your car ) these are skilled artist and well worth what they charge.

 

John

[dave moore]

Hi all

 

Thanks to recent contributors. It may just be me, but I've no problem with chatting to a customer while working. Most of the time I tend to paint on not quite autopilot and the days of sticky out tongue are long gone. Many years ago a director of a laocal boatyard was watching me work and asked the question "What do you think about when you're painting?". My reply was along the lines of ....wonder what's for dinner tonight? ....or That girl with the big boobs I spotted driving here earlier....."Oh!" he exclaimed "You're just like the rest of us." What, I wonder, did he expect?

 

I rarely paint out on the towpath these days. In times gone by, when I did, it wasn't uncommon for a passing family or group of ramblers to stop and watch. Almost invariably they asked:

Are those special brushes? Is that special paint? ....followed by "You must have a steady hand to do that" to which I answered "No moree than 6 pints a night!"

 

There were times when I could hear the intake of breath from a bystander as I lifted a brush. "You're welcome to watch" I'd say .."as long as you don't concentrate for me!".

 

Cheers

 

Dave

[Albion]

My two pennorth for what it's worth is that sign written lettering and artwork looks much better. It has a 'soul' and lack of precision-cut-edge about it that looks so much more natural. I see no reason why a craftsman should not be rewarded for the training, experience, skill and labour that a lifetime of such work deserves. You also, often, have to pay for him/her to travel to do the job which a set of self-applied vinyls in the post won't incur. Why don't we seem to value artisan skills any more?

Roger

[Québec]

I'm writing this as someone whose boat name panels are still blank - after two years - as I would like to hand paint them.....when I find the time and conditions to do so. The longer time goes on the more attractive the vinyl option appears. Our boat is a 'trad' but it is far from being a 'traditional' boat, and I do wonder whether that term has any meaning. I've seen many boats, beautifully hand-painted in traditional style, that have central heating, TVs, wifi, etc., so the 'traditional' bit only seems to apply to the paint job.

 

While I'm all for respecting and acknowledging 'tradition' again I wonder what is this 'tradition' that so many are so keen on preserving? A hard, very tough, poorly paid working life? No, I don't think so. A particular tradition and style of decorative art and craft? Probably.

 

Back in the 1930s, Walter Benjamin wrote a famous essay on 'The Work of Art in the Age Mechanical Reproduction' in which he argued both for the 'aura' of the original work - which is what I think much our attraction to and appreciation of the individual artist or craftsman/woman relies on. But he also argued that the means and techniques or reproduction - in his day mechanical, and in ours both mechanical and digital - challenged and can even destroy the idea of the 'original' work.

 

Returning to the vinyl v. hand-painted debate, I have no doubt that with sufficient design and typographic skills, and sophisticated design software and printing hardware one could reproduce in vinyl a perfect replica of a hand-painted job, complete with the tiny adjustments and "personal' touches, to the point where only a very close examination would reveal its provenance. But, of course it would be very expensive, and so most commercial vinyl offering are pretty basic and can never attain the necessary level of sophistication.

 

So, my question is: if I could produce 'traditional' lettering and decoration in vinyl, that to all intents and purposes looks just like a high quality hand-painted job, what are the real issues if quality isn't an issue?

[DaveC]

Eddie Stobart lorries are vinyl wrapped and they look fine - judging by the following / spotters they attract, but it wouldn't look right on a vintage truck from the 1920s or 1930s.

[boathunter]

Hi all

 

Thanks to recent contributors. It may just be me, but I've no problem with chatting to a customer while working. Most of the time I tend to paint on not quite autopilot and the days of sticky out tongue are long gone. Many years ago a director of a laocal boatyard was watching me work and asked the question "What do you think about when you're painting?". My reply was along the lines of ....wonder what's for dinner tonight? ....or That girl with the big boobs I spotted driving here earlier....."Oh!" he exclaimed "You're just like the rest of us." What, I wonder, did he expect?

 

I rarely paint out on the towpath these days. In times gone by, when I did, it wasn't uncommon for a passing family or group of ramblers to stop and watch. Almost invariably they asked:

Are those special brushes? Is that special paint? ....followed by "You must have a steady hand to do that" to which I answered "No moree than 6 pints a night!"

 

There were times when I could hear the intake of breath from a bystander as I lifted a brush. "You're welcome to watch" I'd say .."as long as you don't concentrate for me!".

 

Cheers

 

Dave

Thanks for that post Dave. I was beginning to think I might be naturally "annoying". What's the world coming to if there isn't time to chat a bit - I doubt anyone including me would want to watch and interupt the entire process anyway. I scrape a living mending classic cars, but I prefer customers who take an interest and appreciate what I'm doing to those who throw a cheque at me and just want to know when it'll be finished (though a few of those are handy too). Edited October 21, 2012 by boathunter

[Guest]

Thanks for that post Dave. I was beginning to think I might be naturally "annoying". What's the world coming to if there isn't time to chat a bit - I doubt anyone including me would want to watch and interupt the entire process anyway. I scrape a living mending classic cars, but I prefer customers who take an interest and appreciate what I'm doing to those who throw a cheque at me and just want to know when it'll be finished (though a few of those are handy too).

 

That wasn't the intention of my post if that is how you read it - I merely recounted my personal experience, there are probably sign writers out there who don't mind a natter while they paint.

 

Dave is obviously one of them.

[boathunter]

That wasn't the intention of my post if that is how you read it - I merely recounted my personal experience, there are probably sign writers out there who don't mind a natter while they paint.

 

Dave is obviously one of them.

No offence taken, but it did make me stop and think and that's no bad thing. I have been known to go on a bit.

[eightpot]

 

 

Returning to the vinyl v. hand-painted debate, I have no doubt that with sufficient design and typographic skills, and sophisticated design software and printing hardware one could reproduce in vinyl a perfect replica of a hand-painted job, complete with the tiny adjustments and "personal' touches, to the point where only a very close examination would reveal its provenance. But, of course it would be very expensive, and so most commercial vinyl offering are pretty basic and can never attain the necessary level of sophistication.

 

So, my question is: if I could produce 'traditional' lettering and decoration in vinyl, that to all intents and purposes looks just like a high quality hand-painted job, what are the real issues if quality isn't an issue?

 

 

There's nothing stopping someone using a computer to draw freehand via a graphics tablet for output to vinyl (apart from the requiste artistic skills) to give the same personal touches as one working the traditonal way. Or indeed using a computer to re-create "their" typefaces with sufficient dulplicate characters to obviate any machine generated look or feel to the work. The only real expense over and above the normal hardware costs is time to generate the designs and fonts. Subesquently producing a "job" for a boat could be executed quite quickly in comparision to traditional paints and brushes.

 

 

One final point: If vinyl was available to boatmen back in the day, would they have still used paint? Thinking on, perhaps the non-availability of a Vinyl cutter 200-odd years ago isn't such a bad thing, else President would be liveried in Comic Sans. *shudders*

[stuart23]

I just love hand painted lettering...even badly hand painted lettering....there is a feeling of effort and concentration .....and lettering done by artists who have spent decades practising their skills just looks superb.

Having said that, I can appreciate that choosing hand painted lettering over vinyl slettering is probably the obvious choice for most people...but the price difference most often swings it so that vinyl is chosen. I have done a few hand painted lettering signs...badly compared to people practising their skills for years...I've also made vinyl signs...which look superb, crisp, clean, nearly perfect (and can be made for pennies...most vinyl is well over charged!!)....but they are not hand painted!!!

A friend asked me to paint a sign for their boat....eventually I did a painting on a piece of board and then photographed it and got it printed on vinyl..we then were able to get 2 prints, one for either side of the boat...I would have preferred to have done the paintings direct onto the boat but the cost of doing this was prohibitive....

Edited October 21, 2012 by stuart23

[Higgs]

I just love hand painted lettering...even badly hand painted lettering....there is a feeling of effort and concentration .....and lettering done by artists who have spent decades practising their skills just looks superb.

Having said that, I can appreciate that choosing hand painted lettering over vinyl slettering is probably the obvious choice for most people...but the price difference most often swings it so that vinyl is chosen. I have done a few hand painted lettering signs...badly compared to people practising their skills for years...I've also made vinyl signs...which look superb, crisp, clean, nearly perfect (and can be made for pennies...most vinyl is well over charged!!)....but they are not hand painted!!!

A friend asked me to paint a sign for their boat....eventually I did a painting on a piece of board and then photographed it and got it printed on vinyl..we then were able to get 2 prints, one for either side of the boat...I would have preferred to have done the paintings direct onto the boat but the cost of doing this was prohibitive....

 

Lucky friend. A good piece of work. A very good image. Good use of vinyl. Say no more.