Running the engine in gear when moored

[RichLech]

During my quest for knowlwdge I have seen reference to boats with engines running and in gear when moored.

 

Why would some-one do this?

 

I understand the need to run the engine to charge batteries/heat water, but why in gear?

[alan_fincher]

It is sometimes said that running a diesel without a reasonable load on it is not good for it, in particular causing a condition called bore glazing.

 

This is supposed to be more prevalent with some older engines, and (most people seem to agree) rarely a problem with more modern ones.

 

To ensure that the engine is working harder, some people therefore deliberately tether the boat, and run it in gear, (which will mean more fuel used, for same quantity of electricity generated).

 

As the BW by-laws specifically forbid it, most people believe you should not do it. Often it is thought it can cause bank erosion, or pilings to be weakened, although, once again, some disagree.

[BargeeSpud]

One typical reason is to place the engine under load conditions. Never fully comphrehended why that is more desireable. Still, someone more knowledgable about these things will soon tell us, I'd quite like to know actually.

 

There you go, Alan comes along just as I wrote & posted the above. Thanks for the info Alan.

Edited October 12, 2012 by Spuds

[riki]

the reason for running it in gear is to keep a load on the engine to try to avoid glazeing the bores

it does help a bit but not much

have a good 1 riki

[alan_fincher]

it does help a bit but not much

How do you know ?

 

Without doing a controlled test with similar engines on a similar use cycle over quite an extended period, I'm not sure I can see how ?

[Proper Job]

Whether it stops bore glazing or not is irrelevant

 

You should do it. It's against the rules

[Cosy Toes]

What really bugs me is people who leave their boats in reverse gear unattended. If someone walking past was to fall in the canal they would be chewed up by the propeller. Apart from the destruction they may be causing to the canal bank if they are always in the same spot.

[Athy]

 

You should do it. It's against the rules

A slip of the pen, or are you in rebellious mode today?

I can see no harm in the practice if the boat is moored against a concrete or metal-clad bank, but it would be likely to erode soft earthen banks. As for running the engine in reverse, a boater told me years ago that this was considered more polite than running it in forward gear, as it did not cause turbulence for a boat moored behind.

Mr. Toes, do you work for the Elfin Safety Executive?

Edited October 12, 2012 by Athy

[jelunga]

A slip of the pen, or are you in rebellious mode today?

I can see no harm in the practice if the boat is moored against a concrete or metal-clad bank, but it would be likely to erode soft earthen banks. As for running the engine in reverse, a boater told me years ago that this was considered more polite than running it in forward gear, as it did not cause turbulence for a boat moored behind.

Mr. Toes, do you work for the Elfin Safety Executive?

Even if the upper part of the bank is concrete there will be erosion caused at the base. There is a danger of injury to anyone that that falks in, but tgat is often a remote possibility.

There is a risk to others if mooring lines slip / break

If is against CRT bylaws

[Keeping Up]

Even when moored against a concrete or metal bank, the bed beneath the bank will be earth or clay, so running in gear will undermine the bank until it collapses.

 

Another effect of running in gear is that if another boat is very considerately passing you slowly but has to pass fairly close because of somoene coming the other way, he will be sucked into the side of your boat by the pull from your propeller.

[alan_fincher]

I can see no harm in the practice if the boat is moored against a concrete or metal-clad bank, but it would be likely to erode soft earthen banks.

As I regularly see stretches where concrete or steel piles have keeled over into the cut, with the bank behind them collapsed, I'm afraid I don't automatically agree with this analysis always being true......

 

(For clarity: I'm not suggesting it is always cased by boats running engines in gear, or perhaps not even often so, but you can't discount that what Allan Jones has said can occur, and that seems a good enough reason - apart from the bye-law - never to do it.)

Edited October 12, 2012 by alan_fincher

[steelaway]

During my quest for knowlwdge I have seen reference to boats with engines running and in gear when moored.

 

Why would some-one do this?

 

I understand the need to run the engine to charge batteries/heat water, but why in gear?

 

I've always thought this idea stems from the old days when engines had long strokes and low revs - and poor oil.

Modern engines with modern oils are not nearly as prone to glazed bores.

The only advantage I can see is that it may heat your calorifier water up a little quicker.

 

Alex

[Guest]

During my quest for knowlwdge I have seen reference to boats with engines running and in gear when moored.

 

Why would some-one do this?

 

I understand the need to run the engine to charge batteries/heat water, but why in gear?

 

The argument 'for' is that it prevents glazing of the bores of the engine which means extra cost in the long term.

 

If it was true I would expect hire companies to instruct their customers to do this.

 

In my experience they ask for nothing of the sort.

 

ie it's bollocks

[dove]

If you need to charge your batteries up with your engine, why not just move. That's what you engine is for!!!

 

Andrew

[alan_fincher]

The argument 'for' is that it prevents glazing of the bores of the engine which means extra cost in the long term.

 

If it was true I would expect hire companies to instruct their customers to do this.

 

In my experience they ask for nothing of the sort.

 

ie it's bollocks

Hire boats tend to have modern Kubota/Mitsubishi/Isuzu based engines, where this is perceived to be (far?) less of a problem.

 

Bore glazing as a concept is not bollocks, and is caused by engines running long periods without an adequate load - it is more likely in older engines.

 

But even those with older engines, (mine are 1963 and [probably] 1970s), really shouldn't do it IMO.

 

( Some hire boat firms don't seem to instruct their hirers not to run engines when tied up between 20:00 and 08:00 - or at least if they do,m they are regularly ignored!)

[Athy]

If you need to charge your batteries up with your engine, why not just move. That's what you engine is for!!!

 

Andrew

Silly boy. Sometimes you've finished your day's movements but need to keep charging the batteries, e.g. when running a diesel central heating system.

Alan Fincher, good points as always, thanks.

[talisman]

I dont need to run my engine in gear as i have a mooring, with power. However,when i was on the cut i used to be a bad boy occasionally. Just pick a suitable spot, tie up securely and away you go. I have seen boats on the move almost flat out, followed by a tidal wave,giving there engines a good work out. Never mind eh.

[Grace and Favour]

I dont need to run my engine in gear as i have a mooring, with power. However,when i was on the cut i used to be a bad boy occasionally. Just pick a suitable spot, tie up securely and away you go. I have seen boats on the move almost flat out, followed by a tidal wave,giving there engines a good work out. Never mind eh.

 

 

That indicates that they also have no respect for their neighbours, the regs (CaRT), nor the responsible upkeep of the canal they are despoiling.......

 

 

 

Never mind - eh?

[onionbargee]

cut and paste off wikipedia...

 

"Diesel engines can suffer damage as a result of misapplication or misuse - namely internal glazing (occasionally referred to as bore glazing or piling) and carbon buildup. Ideally, diesel engines should be run at least 60% to 75% of their maximum rated load. Short periods of low load running are permissible providing the set is brought up to full load, or close to full load on a regular basis.

Internal glazing and carbon buildup is due to prolonged periods of running at low speeds or low loads. Such conditions may occur when an engine is left idling as a 'standby' generating unit, ready to run up when needed, (misuse); if the engine powering the set is over-powered (misapplication) for the load applied to it, causing the diesel unit to be under-loaded, or as is very often the case, when sets are started and run off load as a test (misuse).

Running an engine under low loads causes low cylinder pressures and consequent poor piston ring sealing since this relies on the gas pressure to force them against the oil film on the bores to form the seal. Low cylinder pressures causes poor combustion and resultant low combustion pressures and temperatures.

This poor combustion leads to soot formation and unburnt fuel residues which clogs and gums piston rings, which causes a further drop in sealing efficiency and exacerbates the initial low pressure. Glazing occurs when hot combustion gases blow past the now poorly-sealing piston rings, causing the lubricating oil on the cylinder walls to 'flash burn', creating an enamel-like glaze which smooths the bore and removes the effect of the intricate pattern of honing marks machined into the bore surface which are there to hold oil and return it to the crankcase via the scraper ring.

Hard carbon also forms from poor combustion and this is highly abrasive and scrapes the honing marks on the bores leading to bore polishing, which then leads to increased oil consumption (blue smoking) and yet further loss of pressure, since the oil film trapped in the honing marks is intended to maintain the piston seal and pressures.

Unburnt fuel then leaks past the piston rings and contaminates the lubricating oil. Poor combustion causes the injectors to become clogged with soot, causing further deterioration in combustion and black smoking.

The problem is increased further with the formation of acids in the engine oil caused by condensed water and combustion by-products which would normally boil off at higher temperatures. This acidic build-up in the lubricating oil causes slow but ultimately damaging wear to bearing surfaces.

This cycle of degradation means that the engine soon becomes irreversibly damaged and may not start at all and will no longer be able to reach full power when required.

Under-loaded running inevitably causes not only white smoke from unburnt fuel but over time will be joined by blue smoke of burnt lubricating oil leaking past the damaged piston rings, and black smoke caused by damaged injectors. This pollution is unacceptable to the authorities and neighbors.

Once glazing or carbon build up has occurred, it can only be cured by stripping down the engine and re-boring the cylinder bores, machining new honing marks and stripping, cleaning and de-coking combustion chambers, fuel injector nozzles and valves. If detected in the early stages, running an engine at maximum load to raise the internal pressures and temperatures allows the piston rings to scrape glaze off the bores and allows carbon buildup to be burnt off. However, if glazing has progressed to the stage where the piston rings have seized into their grooves, this will not have any effect."

[Guest]

Hire boats tend to have modern Kubota/Mitsubishi/Isuzu based engines, where this is perceived to be (far?) less of a problem.

 

Bore glazing as a concept is not bollocks, and is caused by engines running long periods without an adequate load - it is more likely in older engines.

 

But even those with older engines, (mine are 1963 and [probably] 1970s), really shouldn't do it IMO.

 

( Some hire boat firms don't seem to instruct their hirers not to run engines when tied up between 20:00 and 08:00 - or at least if they do,m they are regularly ignored!)

 

Yes of course they do...Alan

 

instructions as to when to run your engine are freely available from various sources....

 

I wonder if a more precise and less pedantic answer could be offered if the OP proffered some details on engine type...

Edited October 12, 2012 by The Dog House

[luctor et emergo]

Yes, it could be...

[alan_fincher]

It's not entirely obvious to me that OP was asking about their own situation - more "why does anybody do this" ?

[Grace and Favour]

cut and paste off wikipedia...

 

"Diesel engines can suffer damage as a result of misapplication or misuse - << spurious, opinionated, incomplete Wiki-tosh>> this will not have any effect."

[smileypete]

During my quest for knowlwdge I have seen reference to boats with engines running and in gear when moored.

 

Why would some-one do this?

 

I understand the need to run the engine to charge batteries/heat water, but why in gear?

Good article here:

 

http://coxengineering.sharepoint.com/Pages/Boreglazing.aspx

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

[ditchcrawler]

If you need to charge your batteries up with your engine, why not just move. That's what you engine is for!!!

 

Andrew

Because someone may have nicked your mooring when you get back

 

It is sometimes said that running a diesel without a reasonable load on it is not good for it, in particular causing a condition called bore glazing.

 

This is supposed to be more prevalent with some older engines, and (most people seem to agree) rarely a problem with more modern ones.

 

To ensure that the engine is working harder, some people therefore deliberately tether the boat, and run it in gear, (which will mean more fuel used, for same quantity of electricity generated).

 

You will notice that the same people stop their engines while waiting for locks and never go at tick over past rows of moored boats.