Narrowboat sinks at Canary Wharf

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

New to the idea of a forum and don't know how to reply with quote

 

I just wanted to ask Leo No 2 if he had one of they captain hats and drills his crew standing in line with arms by their side.

[Tam & Di]

New to the idea of a forum and don't know how to reply with quote

 

I just wanted to ask Leo No 2 if he had one of they captain hats and drills his crew standing in line with arms by their side.

 

I'm not sure which of HER posts you are replying to, but I guess it is the list she wrote. I don't think she actually goes to the extent you suggest, but being sensible when you go out onto something like the tidal Thames can be the difference between a perfectly enjoyable cruise and ending up as a topic on CWDF about a sunken boat.

 

As I write this I see you are moored at Farmer's Bridge and looking in at waterway pubs. I've no problem with that, but what makes you feel the need to slag off reasonable advice about going onto the Thame tideway? Do you have experience of these waters?

Edited September 12, 2012 by Tam & Di

[RichardN]

New to the idea of a forum and don't know how to reply with quote

 

I just wanted to ask Leo No 2 if he had one of they captain hats and drills his crew standing in line with arms by their side.

 

Don't be silly, I think she is more used to making Captains line up. What they may be protecting with their hands would be pure speculation on my part.

 

Here are some photos (from 29th July) from the area where the boat sunk

 

Tax and insurance check Thames tideway style:

 

This is the area where the boat sunk:

 

Note: This is safe, not a worry if you have a Leo No. 2 style list. The more experienced here will tell you it is often much smoother but equally can be much rougher!

[Leo No2]

New to the idea of a forum and don't know how to reply with quote

 

I just wanted to ask Leo No 2 if he had one of they captain hats and drills his crew standing in line with arms by their side.

 

A bit of a silly question in my view. I come from 40 years in commercial aviation where it has been proved time and again that a standard, common sense (sadly not common these days!) approach to safety is the best way. Just like on an aeroplane trying to 'do something' once underway (either in the air with an aeroplane or in this case on the tideway with a boat) is not a good approach. Use a check list to remind yourself of the things you need to be aware of - not everything will apply every time but a quick look through a check list will help avoid the obvious things you need to be aware of.

 

The tideway is enormous fun BUT, as Tam says, if you are not prepared for the adventure you could regret it in my view and miss out on a stress free enjoyable trip.

 

Will I drill my crew? - no of course I won't but I will brief them on what to expect, where the first aid kit is, where the essential emergency switches are, how to turn off the gas etc. - that's only common sense. Oh and how to make the tea/coffee!

 

Thanks to Tam (who taught me a lot) and Richard for coming to my defence last night - out trying to bring some order to the Basingstoke repairs (again)!

Edited September 14, 2012 by Leo No2

[Ice Wharf James]

Hello all, not been on here for a while.

 

I agree with Leo No2's list. I don't use lifejackets but I do know that's unwise. It shouldn't have taken this sinking incident to make me decide to get them next time.

 

I would add: "make sure you know your engine can cope". I did the trip downstream the day after the Jubilee flotilla when I knew we would be going on a spring tide, and my GPS claimed I only managed 0.3mph against the tide doing the recommended the go-past-and-come-back manoeuvre into Limehouse.

 

For me it takes narrowboating around London away from being a relatively risk-free activity to one that needs careful planning and an understanding that something might go wrong. But it's a brilliant experience and the feeling of pride when the Limehouse lockeeper said "you did that very well" was, to steal from the Mastercard ads, priceless.

 

Before and after pics that show the stress/concentration vs relief of making it into Limehouse:

 

[Ray T]

New to the idea of a forum and don't know how to reply with quote

 

I just wanted to ask Leo No 2 if he had one of they captain hats and drills his crew standing in line with arms by their side.

 

 

I personally would never mock any one where safety is involved.

 

No, I am not advocating never get out of bed in the morning, but I have sailed with Offshore skippers who at best, had a caviler attitude to safety at sea. They taught me a lot on how to and how not to skipper a offshore yacht.

 

Goliath, if you ever have responsibility for peoples lives at sea or on The Thames perhaps your approach may be different. As skipper that is one of your responsibilities.

Edited September 14, 2012 by Ray T

[Naughty Cal]

Don't be silly, I think she is more used to making Captains line up. What they may be protecting with their hands would be pure speculation on my part.

 

Here are some photos (from 29th July) from the area where the boat sunk

 

Tax and insurance check Thames tideway style:

 

This is the area where the boat sunk:

 

Note: This is safe, not a worry if you have a Leo No. 2 style list. The more experienced here will tell you it is often much smoother but equally can be much rougher!

 

Barely a ripple.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

I'm not sure which of HER posts you are replying to, but I guess it is the list she wrote. I don't think she actually goes to the extent you suggest, but being sensible when you go out onto something like the tidal Thames can be the difference between a perfectly enjoyable cruise and ending up as a topic on CWDF about a sunken boat.

 

As I write this I see you are moored at Farmer's Bridge and looking in at waterway pubs. I've no problem with that, but what makes you feel the need to slag off reasonable advice about going onto the Thame tideway? Do you have experience of these waters?

My big Apologies to Leo for assuming Leo was a he.

I think your term ' slagging off' is a tad strong.

 

A captain's hat would seem a reasonable idea.

Italian style best.

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

I personally would never mock any one where safety is involved.

 

No, I am not advocating never get out of bed in the morning, but I have sailed with Offshore skippers who at best, had a caviler attitude to safety at sea. They taught me a lot on how to and how not to skipper a offshore yacht.

 

Goliath, if you ever have responsibility for peoples lives at sea or on The Thames perhaps your approach may be different. As skipper that is one of your responsibilities.

One don't need to be on the Thames to sink a boat.

I almost sank mine last week in Birmingham exploring the BCN, something hit my prop and split some poorly welded/bodged work around the propeller boss. I spent a weekend bailing till I could get it in a dry dock.

I did manage to keep a sense of humour thoughout.

 

Not got any experience of the Thames yet, other than a pleasure boat from Kingston to Hampton court.

Don't think I'll be putting Goliath in the Thames. A long list of why nots.

Have sailed around the manacles in a force 8 if that's any good! Not on a narrow boat mind.

[Grace and Favour]

My big Apologies to Leo for assuming Leo was a he.

I think your term ' slagging off' is a tad strong.

 

A captain's hat would seem a reasonable idea.

Italian style best.

 

I think you've illustrated your stupidity most capably

[beerbeerbeerbeerbeer]

I think you've illustrated your stupidity most capably

I doff my cap o wise one

[Tim Lewis]

PLA Safety Bulletin Issued after incident:

 

http://www.pla.co.uk/pdfs/maritime/Safety_Bulletin_Issue_1_Sept_2012.pdf

 

Tim

[Tam & Di]

PLA Safety Bulletin Issued after incident:

 

http://www.pla.co.uk/pdfs/maritime/Safety_Bulletin_Issue_1_Sept_2012.pdf

 

Tim

 

 

The PLA appear to have been very gentle with them. From the photos which have the waterline marked showing the air intake to be 50mm below water with three people on board it would seem that it would have sunk on a canal anyway, albeit possibly with less severe consequences. If they did have a survey before they bought it that should have shown up.

[RichardN]

PLA Safety Bulletin Issued after incident:

 

http://www.pla.co.uk/pdfs/maritime/Safety_Bulletin_Issue_1_Sept_2012.pdf

 

Tim

 

Well spotted, suitably scary to be bulletin No. 1

[John V]

I don't think there's anything inherently dangerous when using the tidal Thames if you prepare correctly. It's usually quite placid above Vauxhall Bridge but can get quite bumpy below there especially in the narrow parts with the speed increasing and the Thames Clippers and RIBS let alone the other commercial traffic.

 

• 
   
  
• Anchor ready to go and warp attached correctly
  
• Crew fully briefed on what is expected of them
  
• VHF on channel 14 (London VTS)
  
• Take everything you won't need on the voyage off the roof
  
• Buoyancy aids on when outside
  
• Good watch kept through 360 degrees
  
• Keep out of the way of commercial shipping
  
• Mobile phone number for London VTS to hand
  
• Boat prepared - doors closed etc
  
• Engine in good order - no known issues
  
• Plenty of diesel - the fuel will get shaken around a bit
  
• Speak to the team at Limehouse lock - they have a huge amount of experience and enjoy helping you - pay a visit to Limehouse Lock before your planned journey - they will appreciate that
   
  

 

I am sure I will have missed something out!

 

It's a part of the river that will catch you out if you don't prepare and/or pay attention at all times but will reward you with an exhilarating experience if you prepared wisely.

 

don't think you missed a thing, would only add try to pick a day/time when traffic is low

[Iain_S]

The PLA appear to have been very gentle with them. From the photos which have the waterline marked showing the air intake to be 50mm below water with three people on board it would seem that it would have sunk on a canal anyway, albeit possibly with less severe consequences. If they did have a survey before they bought it that should have shown up.

 

Indeed they have, although I'm a bit surprised they attribute the approximately 115mm depression of the stern to the three people on the back deck. I'd have thought the mere use of power, or a ripple on the water would be enough, and more likely.

 

Iain

[luctor et emergo]

It looks like the air intake was repositioned, possibly during the overplating, indicating that at least the person doing the overplating realised that the vessel would be deeper in the water with this extra weight.

 

And another thing, PLEASE , SOMEBODY RESIZE THOSE PICTURES....

[LEO]

A bit of a silly question in my view. I come from 40 years in commercial aviation where it has been proved time and again that a standard, common sense (sadly not common these days!) approach to safety is the best way. Just like on an aeroplane trying to 'do something' once underway (either in the air with an aeroplane or in this case on the tideway with a boat) is not a good approach. Use a check list to remind yourself of the things you need to be aware of - not everything will apply every time but a quick look through a check list will help avoid the obvious things you need to be aware of.

 

 

Hi,

 

Interesting, I used to do a fair bit of flying with a pal - the 'golden' lesson he taught me was - 'there are old pilots and there are bold pilots but there are no old, bold pilots' - rings true for boating as well.

 

Interesting accident, side air vents close to the water line should be banned.

 

The same thing happened at Henley Regatta a few years ago, - narrowboat with a cruiser stern, side air vent became submerged as those people on the narrowboat moved to one side to see racing boats go by. Boat sank.

 

I went past the finish line as a race was in progress once, the shouts of encouragement to the crews and the swell on the water were amazing.

 

Your precautions are reasonable, we did the run from Brentford to Limehouse in 1996 in a 30ft boat, it was rough and put my wife off river boating to this day.

 

L

[boots]

Hi,

 

Interesting, I used to do a fair bit of flying with a pal - the 'golden' lesson he taught me was - 'there are old pilots and there are bold pilots but there are no old, bold pilots' - rings true for boating as well.

 

 

Another one I have heard of a similar note:-

 

"After 200 hours you think you know it all..

After 500 hours you know you know it all..

 

After 2000 hours you know you will never know it all"

 

[Leo No2]

I think the one thing I would add to my list (in the light of the PLA report) is what we used to call 'weight and balance'. Don't exceed the CE plate limit but also think about your responsibilities as the one in charge. You need enough people to be safe but not so many as to not be able to manage things, especially if they don 't go according to plan. Would a full water tank help or hinder (different boats behave differently) usually the fuller the more inertia you'll have. If you have a full tank of diesel and full water that may sit you deeper in the water. I suppose the most important consideration is 'know your boat'. It should all be common sense but that's not common these days.

[Tam & Di]

Indeed they have, although I'm a bit surprised they attribute the approximately 115mm depression of the stern to the three people on the back deck. I'd have thought the mere use of power, or a ripple on the water would be enough, and more likely.

 

Iain

 

I think you are right about the stern pulling down enough to sink it when you give it a bit of throttle.

 

I am surprised that the PLA was so "gentle". If there had not been a police boat in the vicinity it would more likely have been a case of five bodies (plus a dog ) being recovered. I think any subsequent investigation would have involved the person responsible for the rebottoming, who obviously did recognise that there was a potential problem.

 

I suspect this has a bit further to run, as it may be that the owners are looking at what come-back they might have.

Edited September 25, 2012 by Tam & Di

[Leo No2]

Hi,

 

Interesting, I used to do a fair bit of flying with a pal - the 'golden' lesson he taught me was - 'there are old pilots and there are bold pilots but there are no old, bold pilots' - rings true for boating as well.

 

 

Within the airline industry there's an old saying that you never stop learning however 'old' or 'bold' you are. The people who don't keep learning are those who seem to go on 'early retirement'. The airline industry, by default, is heavily regulated but as boaters we can buy a boat and be let loose on the water in this country - whilst I wouldn't wish to promote regulation I wonder if that might reduce the number of complaints about speeding boats and boats not moored correctly. I remember undertaking a course with Tam and Di where I spent a considerable amount of time learning how to deal with ropes (and how dangerous they can be if you don't treat them with respect - the ropes that is not Tam and Di!)

[WJM]

Since we are discussing preparations for demanding conditions like the tideway;

 

Diesel tank definitely full or as close to it as you can get - less chance of sediment being churned up and clogging the engine supply.

 

But... Water tank! For years I used to allow mine to drain down so that it provided lots of buoyancy in the front. But having recently done a few really rough transits (waves over the bow, spray over the roof) I have come full circle on the tank issue. I now fill the tank up before I set off. With the empty tank I found that the bow lifted going into as wave but it then crashed down very heavily as it exited, throwing the boat around violently. With the tank full, the boat lifts less, yes it cuts the wave deeper, but it then doesn't flail about so much after it exits the wave.

 

I thought that might be a useful observation to someone!

 

 

Also, I have an absolute rule on the tideway - nobody is allowed inside the boat anywhere downstream of Tate Britain/Millbank. Everybody must be outside wearing lifejackets. You wont need an explanation why!

Edited September 25, 2012 by WJM

[Leo No2]

 

Also, I have an absolute rule on the tideway - nobody is allowed inside the boat anywhere downstream of Tate Britain/Millbank. Everybody must be outside wearing lifejackets.

 

I would invoke that idea slightly upstream at Vauxhall Bridge - it can get rough and wild below Vauxhall but it nearly always smooth above Vauxhall. Also extra people on deck are extra eyes.

[FadeToScarlet]

Also, I have an absolute rule on the tideway - nobody is allowed inside the boat anywhere downstream of Tate Britain/Millbank. Everybody must be outside wearing lifejackets. You wont need an explanation why!

 

Do they wee off the side of the boat?

 

Tongue-in-cheek comments aside, it is your boat, of course, and as skipper you must do what you think makes those you are responsible for safest.

 

Having cruised to Barking Creek with forum member RichardN, I can report that he has a rule of undoing lifejackets when inside so as not to be trapped. It is possible to cook when underway, bacon sandwiches and coffee being needed at 5am! Indigo Dream is also clear and wide inside– the bed folds, and the corridor is wide-, so getting out quickly in an emergency isn't a problem.

Edited September 25, 2012 by FadeToScarlet