Volunteer Lockies

[mayalld]

Other than the training notes issued to volunteers which I have seen, I am not sure, where it is written down. However the notes make it quiet clear that lines are prefer to the use of propellers and engines, for the reason I have already explained.

 

If any of them start issuing instructions to use centre lines in locks, they will be VERY firmly told to go away and come back when they actually have a clue about working locks.

 

The capacity of the system is, in many cases, limited by the rate at which boats pass through locks and buggering about with ropes when not needed is a sure fire way to reduce capacity,

 

Mayalld, you come across as a nobby know it all and someone who would pick a fight/ argument with a vicer. You went into that lock knowing full well that the lock kepper wouldn't be able to do anything right no matter what he done. Ive seen loads of people like you, perched on the back of there little gin palace's acting like the commodore of his local 2 penny yacht club. Give them a chance next time you go out for you weeks break instead of coming down on him like a ton of bricks.

 

Darren

 

Whereas you come across as somebody who can't join a converstaion without indulging in a bit of name calling.

 

Yes, I'd pick a fight with a vicar (as noted on another thread, there is a vicar around the system who picks fights with pretty much everybody).

 

Contrary to your assertion, I went into that lock determined NOT to allow my misgivings about volunteer lockies to cloud my view of the actual experience.

 

And if you imagine that I am in ANY way like the commodore of anything on the back of a gin palace, so have a seriously mistaken picture of me.

 

But did you make any attempt to communicate with them first?

 

I was attending to the top gate when they emerged from the brew room, and walked away from me towards the tail gates.

 

Is it to be part of lock operating now that I should stop what I am doing and break off to "engage" with any volunteer lockies who have omitted to show us the basic courtesy of asking if their assistance is wanted.

[luctor et emergo]

I removed the front fender last winter, to make room for the ice breaker'. Tthe fender now lives on a local Cafe Boat. My stem rides the gate, up and down, and likes it. On the even wider Avon locks, I use the centre line, to hold the boat in the flow created by the gate paddles. I'm starting to enjoy bringing my boat up the Bath Deep Lock single handed. Knowing which ground paddle to lift, and how much at a time, to just pin the boat against the wall perfectly, whilst filling the lock as quick as posible, is a skill I enjoy showing off(to be honest). But at the same time, if somebody else does it, and it means I don't have to chimmy the ladders , it's good by me.

 

Every lock is different, and needs a bit of 'local' knowledge, to work quick and effecient, and save. Some of us like to share and further that knowledge. Others prefer to try and jealously guard it...

[Graham Davis]

Sorry Ian Mac, but I think a lot of people are going to disagrre with you over your ideas.

 

I bet when Spey was being used originally it never used any ropes, and rubbed gates.

[mayalld]

Give the volunteers a little more time. Once they have absorbed both the training and real life, I am sure they will confer benefit to all. At the moment they are in some cases a little eager shall we say.

 

Which is EXACTLY what I feared would be the case.

 

This guy had clearly not absorbed even the basic of the theory that should have been drummed into him before he was allowed near a lock as a volunteer lockie.

 

If we are to have volunteers out there, I want them taught the important things before they go near a windlass. I want them to be allowed to practice on CaRT's own boats first to prove that they have absorbed the training, and I want them to be DIRECTLY supervised until they have proved that they don't forget the training when working locks.

[David Schweizer]

ditto

 

 

No need to switch your engine off, unless maybe a pertol 2 stroke engine, different rules may apply - or the Thames and even there the rules appear to be changing.

 

Hatton Locks - now there's a nice flight - I assume we are talking about going up hill here - the water enters all along the side through a set of ports if your in there alone then its open the offside paddles first - then the boat side. If your a pair then its lift the side opposite the longer hulled boat first, this tends to pin them to the wall, then the other side, if its a pair of working boats, you can lift both sets if your mob handed, may be using a mast rope, which is a good trick, a bit like a centre line I suppose.

So I'm not sure why they banged around so much. The rope should have held them, wasn't there can't say, but it seems odd.

 

There's a neat trick with the centre line and your back offside dolly when working the Rochdale single handed going uphill, but it requires a decent length centre line. Also it doesn't work well with a full length boat as the soughs just blow you out, you just need off side paddles first with them and wait a bit, before you pull the boat side.

 

Like you I never use a centre line, can't, no centre attachment point, I'm a member of the RTBC, so I wouldn't anyway would be drummed out.

Most locks are designed for one or at the most two person operation, so lifting both paddles at the same time is not normally a good thing. On a lot of locks its half or there abouts (depends on the cut), walk over the other side full paddle, them back for the other half, or the steerer does this last half and then gate paddles, because the other person is off to set the next lock, and the steer has had time to close the gates and walk up to the lock head. Boat out of gear all the time. Works well, there are occasional funnies like some of the newer Cheshire locks can be a buggers but we normally don't use that side as some of them are well thin.

The art of lock operation is efficiency and timing, there many a time I've been single handed up Cheshire locks, and I've been able to overtake other boats. NO slamming of gates, no banging around, no furious revving in reverse, no running around, steady, ordered and consistent wins.

 

However if I had a cruiser I think I would use a centre line or make sure I held well back in locks, I think its more efficient, depend the length, but most of the time I like you think you don't need a centre line as long as you understand your boat and what you are doing. Also I do think as I hope was understood before that the volunteer was over enthusiastical, and should have talked first then acted accordingly, rather than whipping a paddle up, but I do think the OP did over react to the situation.

 

As to props in locks these tend to get used not at the bottom but on the way up so do cause damage to the walls and their seal, wereas the soughs enter the water, below the normal level so the material in the walls is always saturated, so tends to stay there, rather than a dried out joint.

You can see similar damage being done in places where boats often moor and the water walls are all falling down due to people who moor up and then run there engines in gear, it wreaks the joints between the stones it washes the fines out then there is nothing there to bind the course material together so this also falls out then the wall collapses.

--

Cheers Ian Mac

That system only works for a a full length boat, anything under 60ft and it is better to hold the boat back in the lock and open the paddle on the same side as the boat, the water will rush across the front of the boat and pin it against the wall, when about half full the other paddle can be progressivly lifted. I had to demonstrate this proceedure to a voluntary lock keeper recently after he suggested that I should open the paddle opposite the boat first, which is what he had apparently been told on the training course. In fairness to him he listened and watched, and admitted that he had learnt something that supplemented the information he had been given on the training course.

Edited August 13, 2012 by David Schweizer

[luctor et emergo]

Perhaps some people might consider, to offer their considerable expertise, to help out, those who don't jet have attained perfection..

 

 

 

 

Unless they just want to play with their train set. Occasionally, without sharing.

 

 

 

Oh, how I hate having to slow down, for those boats moored on line. Why don't they get a marina mooring, if want to stay in the same place all the time.

[johnmck]

Which is EXACTLY what I feared would be the case.

 

This guy had clearly not absorbed even the basic of the theory that should have been drummed into him before he was allowed near a lock as a volunteer lockie.

 

If we are to have volunteers out there, I want them taught the important things before they go near a windlass. I want them to be allowed to practice on CaRT's own boats first to prove that they have absorbed the training, and I want them to be DIRECTLY supervised until they have proved that they don't forget the training when working locks.

 

Whilst I do not disagree with you and would always want to be in charge of my own boat in a lock, there are ways and means without knicker twisting. I could not fault one on the Bratch flight today. The volunteers will learn,just give them a little time. It is the over eager person who knows all armed with a windlass I fear.

[wannabe]

I'm afraid i fall into the hire only category

Never had the chance to own my own boat. Yet ....lol

But I do think, the volunteer lockies are like boaters

Some good, some bad.

And I don't just mean hire boaters. I've seen some terrible owners with their boats too

Steering, attitude and language

Faults not only attributeable to hire boaters

Give them a chance

I'm glad a lot of people gave me chances

Still pants at it but hey...........

Always willing to learn and pass onwhat little I know

Edited August 13, 2012 by wannabe

[David Schweizer]

Other than the training notes issued to volunteers which I have seen, I am not sure, where it is written down. However the notes make it quiet clear that lines are prefer to the use of propellers and engines, for the reason I have already explained. As I also attempted to explain before, the use of a centre lining is a safer way of operating a lock. It stops the use of the prop and thus removing one problem if someone should fall in, and it keeps the boat steady. If you know your lock well and understand the flow and understand the amount of thumping your boat will receive then its your choice to do without a centre line, without all the revving of engines associated with some users, however if you are being slow to operate the lock at a busy time, I would expect the lock keeper to ask you to proceed properly and in a timely manor.

ie use a centre line and have all the paddles full open soon after the initial flood again dependant on the lock and canal - local lock keeper knowledge, ask them.

Fender rubbing up gates has always been frowned upon by the waterway management, and a lot of orgininal boatmen, especially if the boat is left in gear, I got well Bo***cked by Charlie Atkins when I did it as a young lad - "Only Mersey Weaver men do that" "You'll get snagged under" "It'll knacker your fender" were some of his retorts. Basically there is no need for it, as long as one operates the lock in a efficient manor.

--

cheers Ian Mac

Whilst I do not doubt your story, many of the older working boatmen derived some pleasure in winding up recreational boaters. I well remember some years ago when I was trying to retrieve a pole dropped in by my son, one of the Holinshead(I think)brothers commented that "a good boatman doesn't need a pole". when I responded if that were the case, why did he have two suspended in the sheets of hs on boat? he just grinned.

 

I also remember the occassion when Rose Skinner called across " Oh look, he can paint daisies" when I was sitting on the top of the boat painting roses onto a can. For them it was sport to wind up the "newcomers".

Edited August 13, 2012 by David Schweizer

[Ian Mac]

Sorry Ian Mac, but I think a lot of people are going to disagrre with you over your ideas.

 

I bet when Spey was being used originally it never used any ropes, and rubbed gates.

Wrong on both counts watch the golden age of canals.

going down hill Strapped in, then out of gear,

Uphill out of gear, then caught on a paddle, steerer the closes gate, no rubbing, the boat basically nudges up the back of the lock and then the comes forwards and up the gate, agreed no rope used on a motor for this. You bought your own rope work at Claytons so you looked after it. Some boatmen as I wrote before left the boat in gear and rubbed the fender up the gates, this wares the fender out fairly quickly, and there is no need to do that. They did fit reigns sometimes to pull the boat into gear once it had descended, not required in these modern days of ladders everywhere.

All butties were held with the mast line, acts line a modern centre line, also helps with gate opening, remember the boatman had got operating the canal down to the minimum effort required. The problem these days is the new standard location of dollies at locks are aligned more with the requirements of a modern cruiser rather than a traditional boat, as are their substance, they will not stop piff, so we have lost some more traditional canal elements. Its like all the starting hocks have been removed as they were considered a trip hazard, because the person making the decision didn't know what they were or why they were there.

Other things which have gone missing, gate stab boards, very few left. The step off handles at the lock tails, strapping posts at junctions, unless they were stone, replaced by dinky doo little signs, which look nice but get really in the way.

And soon to go curtsey of the coroner, those nice little foot bridges on the S&W, because someone may misuse it as a bike bridge.

As to how a centre line works, its a triangle, between the centre of the boat the middle lock dolly and the steerer at the stern of the boat. The steerer should stop any aft movement because he has the rope held under tension and this force is translated into an equalish force holding the centre of the boat against the lock side, which should also stop excessive forwards motion. It appears to work well for those that prefer to use it in my observation.

--

cheers Ian Mac

[Ian Mac]

Whilst I do not doubt your story, many of the older working boatmen derived some pleasure in winding up recreational boaters. I well remember some years ago when I was trying to retrieve a pole dropped in by my son, one of the Holinshead(I think)brothers commented that "a good boatman doesn't need a pole". when I responded if that were the case, why did he have two suspended in the sheets of hs on boat? he just grinned.

 

I also remember the occassion when Rose Skinner called across " Oh look, he can paint daisies" when I was sitting on the top of the boat painting roses onto a can. For them it was sport to wind up the "newcomers".

It was a great sport as you say, the odd time I would be sitting in the cabin with Charlie or Johnny they would suddenly pop out of the cabin, usually just before a boat came into view, and then wait and watch, they were ace wind up merchants, but if you were working their boat you had to get it right by their rules or else. Definitely one rule for us and another for them, as you say.

I once had the misfortune to follow Jack and his misses down the shroppie to cut end, every gate left wide open, it was blumming hard work, epecially as the lockie shouted at us to come back and get all them gates shut, when we tried the same system - such is life.

--

cheers Ian Mac

[Chertsey]

But it sounds as if you still want to make it one rule for some and another for the rest of us - for example, you say people should always use a centre line in locks, then in a later post, you say that you don't. You talk admiringly about the methods used by working boaters, but don't want us lesser mortals to try to emulate them, where still possible.

[mayalld]

The volunteers will learn,just give them a little time.

 

Yes, but to what end?

 

If I could see a prospect that I might reap a benefit somewhere down the line as a result of putting up with them getting it wrong now, then you might have a point.

 

Unfortunately there is no benefit at the end (I accept that there may be for others), so I have to put up with all this for nothing,

[lexicon]

Yes, but to what end?

 

If I could see a prospect that I might reap a benefit somewhere down the line as a result of putting up with them getting it wrong now, then you might have a point.

 

Unfortunately there is no benefit at the end (I accept that there may be for others), so I have to put up with all this for nothing,

 

 

there could be lots of benefits long term (perhaps not to yourself) but lets consider that the canal system is there for all to enjoy.

 

1) if there ended up being stretches where all locks were manned it could open up the boating world to far more people, the disabled or elderly who want to carry on boating but feel unable to work locks.

 

2) these volunteers may choose to support cart financially as well as with their time and any extra income for maintaining the system can only be good.

 

3) the more people have a positive outlook on canals the greater the chance we have of the messaging getting to the wider public that they are not shopping trolley and mattress dumps.

 

 

i could go on but you get the general idea.

[cotswoldsman]

Yes, but to what end?

 

If I could see a prospect that I might reap a benefit somewhere down the line as a result of putting up with them getting it wrong now, then you might have a point.

 

Unfortunately there is no benefit at the end (I accept that there may be for others), so I have to put up with all this for nothing,

 

The benefit is that these volunteers become Friends of CaRT and provide extra finance. You seem to look at everything from 'what will it do for me personally'. These people are proving that they care enough about the system to give up their spare time. David I think you need to understand how a charity works it grows stronger by getting as many people involved as possible. If I want to volunteer to sit by the canal every day to count boats then that should be encouraged, not because it serves a usefull purpose to you but it will make me feel part of the new charity.

[srthomas1957]

I thought life on the canal was going to be peaceful and easy going, but this has changed my mind, all this discussion about an indecent at a lock, puts the rest of the worlds problem in perspective.

[by'eck]

I would welcome volunteers at some awkward heavy locks such as the Chester staircase.

 

After giving up waiting for a another boat to pair up with, it was tough work single-handing up the three flight staircase with only a multitude of gongoozlers looking on. Slow as well since the second ground paddles have all been locked off due to a cill incident.

 

Similar experience a few days earlier going down. The help I received in the bottom chamber only served to nearly flood the boat when said help overfilled the chamber above in his impatience to get up the flight.

[Chertsey]

I thought life on the canal was going to be peaceful and easy going, but this has changed my mind, all this discussion about an indecent at a lock, puts the rest of the worlds problem in perspective.

Better learn sooner than later!

[jonathanA]

Yes, but to what end?

 

If I could see a prospect that I might reap a benefit somewhere down the line as a result of putting up with them getting it wrong now, then you might have a point.

 

Unfortunately there is no benefit at the end (I accept that there may be for others), so I have to put up with all this for nothing,

 

 

Its been a lively debate and there are many good points being made and ideas exchanged, but this comment is just a bit sad really.

 

I feel sorry for you.

[nicknorman]

 

Unfortunately there is no benefit at the end (I accept that there may be for others), so I have to put up with all this for nothing,

I've never met you, but from your recent posts I am building up a picture of your good wife who is not in good health, and yourself who you describe as have physical stature unable (or unwilling) to move quickly. Perhaps you are the type of folk behind whom a large queue of frustrated boaters tends to build up in lock flights due to sluggish operation of locks (and those pesky risk assessments that have to be carried out before opening a paddle)? So perhaps the volockies will assist others by whisking your paddles up / gates closed / open (not necessarily in the correct order) so as to flush you out of the lock before you know what has happened and allow the waiting crowds of boats swifter passage? Sounds good to me!

[magpie patrick]

Could anyone tell me locations on the CRT system where the lock keepers actually operated the locks before CRT took over?

 

In cruising virtually all waters on the west side of the great watershed of England the only places I can think of are the river Severn and the river Weaver. most of these locks are mechanised and are not capable of user operation.

 

In a few locations "lock keepers" are on hand to ensure the locks are managed correctly, Bratch being one (although BW didn't bother with a lock keeper for the similar double lock on the Stourbridge 16). But these lock keepers didn't operate the locks, simply made sure that the boater didn't make a mess of it at locations with unusual arrangements. And even then the system was simplified. For example I think most people know that Foxton and Watford staircases have paddles painted different colours, "Red before white you'll be all right". The only thing the lock keeper did when I headed through Watford locks was stop anyone entering the staircase whilst I was coming the other way.

 

Given that whilst volunteers don't get paid but there is a cost associated with them (they have to be insured, someone has to manage them, someone has to keep records etc) why are CRT using volunteers for jobs that don't need doing? I think that's an even more fundamental question than why someone clearly not up to the job was allowed to hold a windlass.

[Chertsey]

That's a very good question and might the answer be CRT's naive obsession with volunteering as almost its raison d'etre?

[carlt]

Could anyone tell me locations on the CRT system where the lock keepers actually operated the locks before CRT took over?

Foxton, Watford, Long Buckby, Braunston, Stockton...off the top of my head, are all flights where a BW lockie has worked my boat through the flight for me.

 

Many others are now coming to me where I've been helped either through one lock or a whole flight.

[luctor et emergo]

A very good question, and something most people (including me) probably hadn't considered. Volunteers are not free.

Why are CRT wasting many in this way?

I'm sure that CRT will issue a statement in a few months, saying how many volunteers came forward, and what a fine job CRT has done. But howmany of these volunteers will last the distance?

[Chertsey]

A very good question, and something most people (including me) probably hadn't considered. Volunteers are not free.

Why are CRT wasting many in this way?

I'm sure that CRT will issue a statement in a few months, saying how many volunteers came forward, and what a fine job CRT has done. But howmany of these volunteers will last the distance?

And how many will actually 'add value' in the current phrase? Or does CRT see them as an end in themselves? Or once they arevtrained, and the good and committed ones identified, will they start to replace professionals as these retire?