Volunteer Lockies

[David Schweizer]

Well I don't know what all the fuss is about, the four CaRT volunteers that we met a few weeks ago on the Lapworth flight didn't have a windlass between them,

 

But they did have paint brush!

[ChimneyChain]

Mayalld, you come across as a nobby know it all and someone who would pick a fight/ argument with a vicer. You went into that lock knowing full well that the lock kepper wouldn't be able to do anything right no matter what he done. Ive seen loads of people like you, perched on the back of there little gin palace's acting like the commodore of his local 2 penny yacht club. Give them a chance next time you go out for you weeks break instead of coming down on him like a ton of bricks.

 

Darren

[Chertsey]

I have to say I think people are being a bit harsh on Dave. Would the responses be the same if someone else had posted the exact same post? I suspect not. One of the volunteers clearly was in the wrong in this case, albeit in a minor way, by winding the paddle without checking with the steerer, and then compounded it by swearing at/about them. What would we be saying if it had happened to, say, Starcoaster?

 

Most people are quick enough to complain when a random member of the public operates 'their' lock without asking. Surely we should be able to expect higher standards from official trained volunteers.

 

PS. I would pick an argument with a vicar.

 

PPS. I know it shouldn't but it makes me feel a bit sad that a fellow big Woolwich owner should post something as vitriolic as that.

Edited August 13, 2012 by Chertsey

[Guest]

PPS. I know it shouldn't but it makes me feel a bit sad that a fellow big Woolwich owner should post something as vitriolic as that.

 

Nobody is perfect....

 

not even big Woolwich owners...

 

 

It strikes me there is a possible disconnection between any pre 'working in the field training' and what this guy received 'on site'. The 'do not raise the paddles until you are sure the person at the tiller is happy for you to do so' should be included in any basic prep - it's fundamental.

 

Working 'in the field' should be about refining this and how you check this.....

[Graham Davis]

 

As we approached the lock, on the towpath side, there was nobody on the lockside, and as we entered, the volunteers emerged from the brew room and made their way to the tail gates.

 

At no point did they make the SLIGHTEST attempt to enquire as to whether we wanted help. They simply imposed their assistance on us.

 

 

But did you make any attempt to communicate with them first?

[Chertsey]

Nobody is perfect....

 

not even big Woolwich owners...

 

 

Some of us are...

[Tuscan]

You failure to comprehend the layout at the lock in question would apear to be at fault.

 

At Bosley top lock, there is a sanitary station on the off side, with a BW brew room and the end closest to the tail gates.

 

As we approached the lock, on the towpath side, there was nobody on the lockside, and as we entered, the volunteers emerged from the brew room and made their way to the tail gates.

 

At no point did they make the SLIGHTEST attempt to enquire as to whether we wanted help. They simply imposed their assistance on us.

 

And you want me to come up with a strategy to deal politely with people too ignorant to ask. You want me to go out of my way to engage people who haven't arsed themselves to engage with me?

 

Unreal

 

 

 

 

Please take chill pill

 

You are right I do not know that lock so in that respect I will obviously accept your version of events , you were there as you say. Coming up with a strategy to deal politely with people ignorant or otherwise would definitely be a good idea for you. It would be helpfully I'm sure when dealing with people generally in all walks of life. Just a thought but if you had made possibly the SLIGHTEST (your capitals I believe) to engage with them you might have had a pleasant experience.

 

Anyway not looking to pick a fight and hopefully when you next come into contact with them or any other member of the public at a lock you will be able to engage with them so that you are able to work the lock through unassisted.

[Ian Mac]

Back out of lurking mode.

Just for the record lock keepers - volunteers or full time are in theory trained to operate locks safely, according to the latest H&S recommendation which C&RT are using, and tell other people how they could be improving their techniques to keep them and other safe and efficient.

So this proves the volunteer met here, definitely was not fully trained, as he? should have been asking you to use your centre line, or other approved method of securing your boat, whilst you operated the lock, before he touched anything. I would suggest he was being very keen as new volunteers tend to be, and a quiet word with him would have been useful, and his minder maybe. As part of the keepers conversation, he should have found out if you needed any special help, and then acted accordingly.

I think the OP defiantly over reacted, to the guy pulling one paddle, this would as stated elsewhere would drawn the boat forwards and away from the cill, the thing that one has to manage is any bounce if the boat should touch the bottom gates - thus the need for a centre line, safer and greener than using the engine. The use of engines causes erosion of the lock pointing and should be discouraged, as this erosion then causes the locks to leak, and we get a bigger more costly problem, longer stoppages and generally a bigger bill for the maintenance of our waterways

Problems can arise if both paddles are drawn and the boat is deep drafted, and the boat bounces and everybody concerned isn't on the ball, but I suspect the volunteer would really have had to have gone for it with a pleasure boat to get it into any problem what so ever, so there was plenty of time rather than starting to shout about the place.

It is my experience that the volunteers at Bosley are doing a really great job, the locks are in good fettle and easy to operate, and I have found them to be helpful and courteous.

As to why there are volunteers at Bosley and not Marple, for example, it is because its near to where the volunteers live. C&RT would like all locks to have volunteers but at the moment there are not enough volunteers, however they are looking at how to get more on the less cheery spot flights, these cheery shots tend to be near where all the socially mind people tend to live, an interesting catch 22 type problem.

 

Chimneychian I love your gas mask chain, a bit rare these days

 

As to which paddle to draw in a broad lock with a single boat - local knowledge is best! Depends on the length of the boat, whether they are correctly using a centre line, and the particular lock design, some are pigs no matter what you do, Rochdale lock doubly so.

At the end of the day boating is a contact sport, and we should all remember that.

Operating a lock safely, swiftly and efficiently is I believe the best goal, some people are definitely over cautious and precious about operating locks.

--

Cheers Ian Mac

[Graham Davis]

So this proves the volunteer met here, definitely was not fully trained, as he? should have been asking you to use your centre line, or other approved method of securing your boat, whilst you operated the lock, before he touched anything.

 

Ian,

I fail to understand this point.

Are you suggesting that every boat in every narrow lock should be using ropes to secure themselves?

Are you suggesting, for example, that "nosing" a gate going up is not allowed?

I would also be interested to see where your described method is laid down.

[Guest]

Centre lines are not necessary in most situations - it's an unnecessary faff especially in a narrow lock, we rarely use one in any lock, narrow, wide or broad.

 

If the lock is filled/emptied in a controlled manner minimal use of the engine is required. We sometimes get thrown about if we share a lock with a big commercial (who also don't rope off BTW) as they up the revs. but we are ready for that now)

Edited August 13, 2012 by The Dog House

[Chertsey]

As for it being greener than using the engine, well, ok, but so would bowhauling the boat everywhere be. How marginal do you want to get?

I would hazard a guess that the movement of water as the lock is filled has a more significant erosive effect than any but the most extreme use of the engine.

 

As for using a centre (or back end) line, how and where to? In big and/or wide locks this might have an effect (albeit arguably an unnecessary one) but in narrow ones where you're talking about forward and backward movement of a few feet, I wouldn't have thought it would be sufficient to prevent that unless it was held so tight as to be potentially dangerous.

[ditchcrawler]

Well, this has certainly taken off while I was out buying some starch.

 

I have to say it would need to be a wonderfully fast-emptying lock for it to be necessary to be clear of the cill before *starting* to empty it, BUT that does presuppose that the person operating the lock is alert to the possibility that the steerer may be having difficulties getting/staying forward (ref. My experience at Colwich when a top paddle was slightly open). But all the same it is surely courtesy and good practice to get the nod from the steerer before beginning to wind. And you would expect volunteer lockies above all to demonstrate courtesy and good practice.

 

I did a double take last week, woman steered a boat into the lock, bloke shut the gate, I was at the other end, windlass poised. Looked at her and asked ok? She wasn't paying attention at all but the bloke on the bank said it was! I made a point of getting a signal from the actual steerer before starting though. And that's ME - and I'm pretty gung ho.

 

 

Or a very long heavy one?

I am with you on that on, I want a nod from the steerer before I lift a paddle.

[fuzzyduck]

In a wide lock I'll stand there holding the windlass until I've made eye contact with every skipper, and each has responded to my thumbs up before I wind anything.

[Chertsey]

I am with you on that on, I want a nod from the steerer before I lift a paddle.

And I do know what I am doing, and I don't want to waste time, but it does seem to be the most basic courtesy.

[Tuscan]

Agreed its all about communication, but the steerer should give the signals regarding any lock operation, I find that most people that are also transiting the locks get this. However apart from Chertsey nobody is perfect and I will admit to still making mistakes.

[Chertsey]

Agreed its all about communication, but the steerer should give the signals regarding any lock operation, I find that most people that are also transiting the locks get this. However apart from Chertsey nobody is perfect and I will admit to still making mistakes.

You can be perfect too if you like

[Ian Mac]

Other than the training notes issued to volunteers which I have seen, I am not sure, where it is written down. However the notes make it quiet clear that lines are prefer to the use of propellers and engines, for the reason I have already explained. As I also attempted to explain before, the use of a centre lining is a safer way of operating a lock. It stops the use of the prop and thus removing one problem if someone should fall in, and it keeps the boat steady. If you know your lock well and understand the flow and understand the amount of thumping your boat will receive then its your choice to do without a centre line, without all the revving of engines associated with some users, however if you are being slow to operate the lock at a busy time, I would expect the lock keeper to ask you to proceed properly and in a timely manor.

ie use a centre line and have all the paddles full open soon after the initial flood again dependant on the lock and canal - local lock keeper knowledge, ask them.

Fender rubbing up gates has always been frowned upon by the waterway management, and a lot of orgininal boatmen, especially if the boat is left in gear, I got well Bo***cked by Charlie Atkins when I did it as a young lad - "Only Mersey Weaver men do that" "You'll get snagged under" "It'll knacker your fender" were some of his retorts. Basically there is no need for it, as long as one operates the lock in a efficient manor.

--

cheers Ian Mac

[Tuscan]

You can be perfect too if you like

 

 

I'm a man so no chance ..............

 

Other than the training notes issued to volunteers which I have seen, I am not sure, where it is written down. However the notes make it quiet clear that lines are prefer to the use of propellers and engines, for the reason I have already explained. As I also attempted to explain before, the use of a centre lining is a safer way of operating a lock. It stops the use of the prop and thus removing one problem if someone should fall in, and it keeps the boat steady. If you know your lock well and understand the flow and understand the amount of thumping your boat will receive then its your choice to do without a centre line, without all the revving of engines associated with some users, however if you are being slow to operate the lock at a busy time, I would expect the lock keeper to ask you to proceed properly and in a timely manor.

ie use a centre line and have all the paddles full open soon after the initial flood again dependant on the lock and canal - local lock keeper knowledge, ask them.

Fender rubbing up gates has always been frowned upon by the waterway management, and a lot of orgininal boatmen, especially if the boat is left in gear, I got well Bo***cked by Charlie Atkins when I did it as a young lad - "Only Mersey Weaver men do that" "You'll get snagged under" "It'll knacker your fender" were some of his retorts. Basically there is no need for it, as long as one operates the lock in a efficient manor.

--

cheers Ian Mac

 

 

 

I locked up Hatton with a boat once who insisted on turning the engine off and centre rope, when paddles where thrown up as you suggest they had no control . We have never used a centre line for lock operation (unless single handed) I would rather throw a paddle up half to get the flow going then up , we don't hold people up.

[Tam & Di]

Other than the training notes issued to volunteers which I have seen, I am not sure, where it is written down. However the notes make it quiet clear that lines are prefer to the use of propellers and engines, for the reason I have already explained. As I also attempted to explain before, the use of a centre lining is a safer way of operating a lock. It stops the use of the prop and thus removing one problem if someone should fall in, and it keeps the boat steady. If you know your lock well and understand the flow and understand the amount of thumping your boat will receive then its your choice to do without a centre line, without all the revving of engines associated with some users, however if you are being slow to operate the lock at a busy time, I would expect the lock keeper to ask you to proceed properly and in a timely manor.

 

There is NO one correct way for every boater with every type of boat to operate every lock. There are fundamental operations that have to be carried out, but the exact sequence can vary from lock to lock. Everyone gradually develops their own style (assuming they actually care about their boating) and if I meet a summer trainee lock worker (The French equivalent of those in question on this thread) why would I trust my craft to their ignorance?. When there were lock keepers in the UK, they did not necessarily make eye contact before liftimg a paddle, but they did know enough to see with a quick glance that a boat was not doing something untoward. Certainly though I always get the OK from any other craft before operating a lock, even if they don't actually know what they are agreeing OK to, just to cover my own backside. I have every sympathy with Dave not being happy with how a trainee operated the lock for him, and I've certainly had to get fierce with two or three over here.

 

I'm not sure how a centre line does what you say - it's certainly not a method I would use with a 72' boat, but I have no problem with allowing the stem to ride up or down against the gates anyway. I'm not convinced that a trainee would know what a proper and timely manner was. My experience of those in France is they are taught to lift paddles just one notch so it takes 15 minutes to fill or empty rather than the usual 5-8 minutes.

[Chertsey]

Other than the training notes issued to volunteers which I have seen, I am not sure, where it is written down. However the notes make it quiet clear that lines are prefer to the use of propellers and engines, for the reason I have already explained. As I also attempted to explain before, the use of a centre lining is a safer way of operating a lock. It stops the use of the prop and thus removing one problem if someone should fall in, and it keeps the boat steady. If you know your lock well and understand the flow and understand the amount of thumping your boat will receive then its your choice to do without a centre line, without all the revving of engines associated with some users, however if you are being slow to operate the lock at a busy time, I would expect the lock keeper to ask you to proceed properly and in a timely manor.

ie use a centre line and have all the paddles full open soon after the initial flood again dependant on the lock and canal - local lock keeper knowledge, ask them.

Fender rubbing up gates has always been frowned upon by the waterway management, and a lot of orgininal boatmen, especially if the boat is left in gear, I got well Bo***cked by Charlie Atkins when I did it as a young lad - "Only Mersey Weaver men do that" "You'll get snagged under" "It'll knacker your fender" were some of his retorts. Basically there is no need for it, as long as one operates the lock in a efficient manor.

--

cheers Ian Mac

Please can you explain *how* exactly to use a centre line to stop a boat moving back and forth in a narrow lock?

 

As for knackering the fender, I always lift mine when going downhill.

[Guest]

Please can you explain *how* exactly to use a centre line to stop a boat moving back and forth in a narrow lock?

 

As for knackering the fender, I always lift mine when going downhill.

 

One time we came through Fradley I recall an exasperated lady hire boater (who had sussed it) walking up towards me windlass in hand, a bit angrily asking 'Mister, do we have to use the rope in these locks'

 

er no why would you?, you don't need to.

 

Because he 'angry pointing of windlass' says we do...

 

[johnmck]

Give the volunteers a little more time. Once they have absorbed both the training and real life, I am sure they will confer benefit to all. At the moment they are in some cases a little eager shall we say. Put's me in mind of a new crossing patrol lady who complained daily that drivers were trying to run her down and failing to stop! After she realised jumping in front of traffic rather than waiting for a natural break was not advisable, the complaints ceased. And she is still alive!

[mrsmelly]

Please can you explain *how* exactly to use a centre line to stop a boat moving back and forth in a narrow lock?

 

As for knackering the fender, I always lift mine when going downhill.

 

Fenders are supposed to get knackered, they are not supposed to be immaculate ornament, liken them to sacrificial anodes. If they aint wearing out then they aint doing the job they are intended for.

 

Tim

[Ange]

The only locks we have used ropes on have been the big wide locks when the lockie has told us to.

 

We've certainly never used them in narrow locks and don't intend to start now!

[Ian Mac]

I'm a man so no chance ..............

ditto

I locked up Hatton with a boat once who insisted on turning the engine off and centre rope, when paddles where thrown up as you suggest they had no control . We have never used a centre line for lock operation (unless single handed) I would rather throw a paddle up half to get the flow going then up , we don't hold people up.

 

No need to switch your engine off, unless maybe a pertol 2 stroke engine, different rules may apply - or the Thames and even there the rules appear to be changing.

 

Hatton Locks - now there's a nice flight - I assume we are talking about going up hill here - the water enters all along the side through a set of ports if your in there alone then its open the offside paddles first - then the boat side. If your a pair then its lift the side opposite the longer hulled boat first, this tends to pin them to the wall, then the other side, if its a pair of working boats, you can lift both sets if your mob handed, may be using a mast rope, which is a good trick, a bit like a centre line I suppose.

So I'm not sure why they banged around so much. The rope should have held them, wasn't there can't say, but it seems odd.

 

There's a neat trick with the centre line and your back offside dolly when working the Rochdale single handed going uphill, but it requires a decent length centre line. Also it doesn't work well with a full length boat as the soughs just blow you out, you just need off side paddles first with them and wait a bit, before you pull the boat side.

 

Like you I never use a centre line, can't, no centre attachment point, I'm a member of the RTBC, so I wouldn't anyway would be drummed out.

Most locks are designed for one or at the most two person operation, so lifting both paddles at the same time is not normally a good thing. On a lot of locks its half or there abouts (depends on the cut), walk over the other side full paddle, them back for the other half, or the steerer does this last half and then gate paddles, because the other person is off to set the next lock, and the steer has had time to close the gates and walk up to the lock head. Boat out of gear all the time. Works well, there are occasional funnies like some of the newer Cheshire locks can be a buggers but we normally don't use that side as some of them are well thin.

The art of lock operation is efficiency and timing, there many a time I've been single handed up Cheshire locks, and I've been able to overtake other boats. NO slamming of gates, no banging around, no furious revving in reverse, no running around, steady, ordered and consistent wins.

 

However if I had a cruiser I think I would use a centre line or make sure I held well back in locks, I think its more efficient, depend the length, but most of the time I like you think you don't need a centre line as long as you understand your boat and what you are doing. Also I do think as I hope was understood before that the volunteer was over enthusiastical, and should have talked first then acted accordingly, rather than whipping a paddle up, but I do think the OP did over react to the situation.

 

As to props in locks these tend to get used not at the bottom but on the way up so do cause damage to the walls and their seal, wereas the soughs enter the water, below the normal level so the material in the walls is always saturated, so tends to stay there, rather than a dried out joint.

You can see similar damage being done in places where boats often moor and the water walls are all falling down due to people who moor up and then run there engines in gear, it wreaks the joints between the stones it washes the fines out then there is nothing there to bind the course material together so this also falls out then the wall collapses.

--

Cheers Ian Mac