Volunteer Lockies

[carlt]

Whilst I understand Carlt's dislike of Mayalld's stance, I don't understand why volunteers are doing jobs that didn't need doing a year ago.

 

Dave made it quite clear that the volocky's training was incomplete.

 

I would suggest that a lock flight where lock keepers are not necessary is the perfect place to carry out this training, before throwing them in the deep end, so to speak.

[MartinC]

I am sorry to see this issue generating so much heat.

 

We came through Bosley both ways last month. Helpful volunteers (not just on the top lock) who, I hope, are not going to be put off by some of the postings. The local CART employee was usefully employed tracing and repairing a leak on one of the middle locks.

 

Possibly I have had luck, but the volunteers I have met have been a lot more helpful than a few of my fellow boaters, including one who had no idea that, for a single boat ascending a double lock you raise the nearside paddle first.

[Mick_B]

[carlt]

Will I take actions that will protect me and mine from danger, even if it means that the person who caused the issue in the first place may himself be in danger.

 

Yes.

Nice!

 

Even if those actions are unnecessarily exaggerated?

 

Dave, you have reinforced my view that I would never trust my child's welfare with a group who employ volunteers who would put their safety ahead of a stranger's.

 

Pure selfishness Dave....most unchristian.

[mayalld]

I would have called over (not shouted) in a friendly manner asking him not to raise the paddle, whilst walking towards him.

 

I can just imagine you charging over, face purple, veins popping as you prepared to remonstrate with him.

 

The way you describe your, and your wife's, response leads me to believe that you were actually putting the volocky in danger, and risking damage to the paddle gear, if he'd dropped it in fear of your aggressive posturing.

 

Did you shout at your wife for not having the stem iron up against the bottom gates by the time you had closed the top ones or do you reserve your fury for people you don't know?

 

When I am single handing the boat is in the correct position by the time the back gates are closed so I think you are slipping up if two of you can't manage it.

 

If the volocky had crushed his fingers or broken the paddle gear, after being startled at your ire, would that be your fault because of your threatening behaviour or his for not having the bottle to stand up to your attitude and (possibly) swearing?

 

Clearly, you are determined to ladle invention onto what I have said.

 

• At no point did Bev or I swear at anybody
• I said shouted, because it seems an appropriate word to use for calling out in a tone which indicates something with a degree of urgency at sufficient volume to be heard at the other end of the lock. At no point did I suggest that there was anything aggressive or threatening about it.
• I did not "charge" anywhere, because I am not built for it. I walked reasonably rapidly to the towpath side bottom gate and explained from across the lock why Bev had shouted that he should drop the paddles. At that point HE was the one who responded with expletives.

As to your assertion about where the stem post should be, one can only assume that I am rather slicker at closing a top gate than you. I closed the gate such that it followed the counter into the lock, so that I could be on my way to the bottom gate by the time the boat arrived there.

 

If I were slower at closing the top gate, then the boat would have been at the bottom gate before the top gate was closed.

 

 

 

[nicknorman]

I am sorry to see this issue generating so much heat.

 

Certainties in life - death, taxes and that a CWDF topic on volockies will become heated!

[mayalld]

At the foot of the lock winding the paddle, the steerer having shut the gates?

 

Unfortunately, a long standing heart condition coupled with chemotherapy means that Bev is not allowed to do gates.

 

Nice!

 

Even if those actions are unnecessarily exaggerated?

 

Dave, you have reinforced my view that I would never trust my child's welfare with a group who employ volunteers who would put their safety ahead of a stranger's.

 

Pure selfishness Dave....most unchristian.

 

Not at all.

 

Your assertion that shouting to somebody to drop a paddle when their having raised it has created a dangerous situation actually occasions any more dangerous situation for that person is pure fantasy on your part.

[carlt]

Clearly, you are determined to ladle invention onto what I have said.

 

• [*]At no point did Bev or I swear at anybody[*]

 

I never suggested you did. I was referring to the unacceptable reaction of the volocky to your ire.

 

 

The rest is just a reasonable assumption considering your attitude on here and the contrasting experiences of other people who haven't stated that they will be confrontational with anyone who doesn't behave exactly as they wish.

 

If you say you are going to have a row with someone who doesn't do as you say then you only have yourself to blame if people see your confrontations as largely your fault.

 

Your comments in the last thread broadcast a self-fulfilling prophecy that made this exchange inevitable.

 

shouting to somebody to drop a paddle when their having raised it has created a dangerous situation actually occasions any more dangerous situation for that person is pure fantasy on your part.

Shouting at anyone can create a dangerous situation.

 

Suggesting this is not the case is pure ignorance on your part.

Edited August 13, 2012 by carlt

[mayalld]

Dave made it quite clear that the volocky's training was incomplete.

 

I would suggest that a lock flight where lock keepers are not necessary is the perfect place to carry out this training, before throwing them in the deep end, so to speak.

 

And it is a suggestion that has merit, if we are to be saddled with these people.

 

However, if lockies are being trained, then;

 

1) People should be ASKED if it is OK for the trainee to practice on them.

2) The trainee should be effectively supervised and trained. The fact that the minder was sat in the brew room rather than actually stood there making sure that the trainee was doing all the right things was the root cause of the problem

[Boondock]

Given the act of opening the bottom paddles will draw the boat forward away from the cill, I fail to see the issue in the first scenario. As steerer I would imagine like me the first thought would be to ensure the rudder is away from the cill. I reckon you've about 45 secs to move it if there is a problem. Easily beyond the wit of most people to achieve.

 

Your post had a sad inevitability having read your earlier ramblings on the subject.

 

Cheers Boondock

[carlt]

2) The trainee should be effectively supervised and trained. The fact that the minder was sat in the brew room rather than actually stood there making sure that the trainee was doing all the right things was the root cause of the problem

 

Perhaps he was giving them a chance to take command of the operation.

 

I hear Scout leaders often put children in charge of potentially dangerous situations but they may not be close enough to intervene when one of the kids rows with a volocky.

[mayalld]

Given the act of opening the bottom paddles will draw the boat forward away from the cill, I fail to see the issue in the first scenario. As steerer I would imagine like me the first thought would be to ensure the rudder is away from the cill. I reckon you've about 45 secs to move it if there is a problem. Easily beyond the wit of most people to achieve.

 

So, basically, what you are saying is that even though the volunteer did the wrong thing, a competent steerer can get themselves out of the situation caused, and all is well?

 

Now, remind me what the point of these volunteers is?

 

Oh yes, to assist people who are inexperienced.

 

Yes, nothing bad happened, but no thanks to the volunteer. Once that guy gets let out alone and meets an inexperienced crew, it is a recipe for disaster.

 

Perhaps he was giving them a chance to take command of the operation.

 

I hear Scout leaders often put children in charge of potentially dangerous situations but they may not be close enough to intervene when one of the kids rows with a volocky.

 

Clearly, your hearing is defective.

[Guest]

Yes, nothing bad happened, but no thanks to the volunteer. Once that guy gets let out alone and meets an inexperienced crew, it is a recipe for disaster.

 

assuming of course he hasn't learned from this - I suppose it's better than learning by sinking one...

[carlt]

Clearly, your hearing is defective.

Figure of speech dear boy.

 

I read it, of course.

 

assuming of course he hasn't learned from this -

I suspect Dave's attitude minimised the chances of the trainee learning anything from the experience.

[mayalld]

Figure of speech dear boy.

 

I read it, of course.

 

Not in any post of mine you didn't.

 

You may have read it in one of yours where you dress up what I say with some fictions around the edges.

[Tuscan]

It seems the usual two combatants seem more concerned at scoring points of each other than addressing the issues. As I understand these are the first volunteers for the OP, Carl how many have you come across in your recent canal cruising?.

 

In the last few months we have travelled widely and have in general found these guys friendly and helpful and seemed knowledgeable both of boating and lock operations.

There has always been eye contact before paddles lifted etc, and no issue when I asked that paddle were only lifted a half at a deep lock. In fact my only issue is when one didn't help at a lock which was discussed elsewhere. I suggest the OP needs to lighten up a bit and when he meets them again , which he will, just let hem know how he wants to operate the lock, on his own or with assistance.

 

I don't believe for one minute they were hiding behind a bush or in a brew house for him to arrive , it's perfectly possible when entering a lock, before closing the gates to let them know in reasonable terms that you would like to operate the locks on your own.

 

I am sure they are here to stay so you need to learn to with them or a strategy that lets them know politely that their assistance is not required.

[KevMc]

Just how long does it take to clear a cill safely?

And how long does it take for the water to drop below the safe level?

 

If the answer to the first is less than the answer to the second then surely there should have been no urgency in explaining the situation to the volocky.. on the other hand if it's the other way around then maybe there was a degree of urgency - simples?

[carlt]

It seems the usual two combatants seem more concerned at scoring points of each other than addressing the issues.

As I have done nothing but address the issues (as has Dave) I really don't see how you reach this conclusion.

 

We are having an on-topic discussion about an issue we disagree on keeping within forum rules.

 

How would you like us to do this differently?

Edited August 13, 2012 by carlt

[Tuscan]

As I have done nothing but address the issues (as has Dave) I really don't see how you reach this conclusion.

 

We are having an on-topic discussion about an issue we disagree on keeping within forum rules.

 

How would you like us to do this differently?

[/

 

 

Not suggesting that the topic be banned , if you can't see the antagonistic approach you both take to your "discussion" then I can't help you. It's funny that the same approach is not taken when discussing other topics with other posters on the forum, co-incidence I guess. By the way how many volunteers did you say you had met in your recent travels?

 

I'm not taking sides here as I tend to agree with many of the points you are making,

[carlt]

if you can't see the antagonistic approach you both take to your "discussion" then I can't help you.

Fortunately I don't think I need any help (could that mean I'm delusional?).

 

Both me and Dave enjoy the debate and I don't know about Dave but I'm only here for my entertainment, nobody else's.

 

We have wildly differing opinions about many subjects but I respect Dave's forthright debating skills and will happily buy him a drink, should we ever meet in a pub and either have a heated debate or a friendly chat.

[ditchcrawler]

Although not quite in that level of detail I must confess that I always check with Jan that she is ready for the paddles to be lifted, normally I just do it as I walk past the stern on the way to the bottom paddles.

 

I don't see it as 'seeking permission' - just that she is ready.

I would always look for at least a nod from the steerer before opening a paddle, likewise I will ask his wife, that's usually the case, how he liks them opened. I.e. slow or wack em up.

[Guest]

I.e. slow or wack em up.

 

Doesn't that rather depend on the lock though?? - I know if you 'wack em up' at Bank Dole (coming off the Aire at Knottingley) going up for example the resulting turbulence in the lock is tremendous - or did you just mean gong down?

[ditchcrawler]

I've encountered a wide variation in other people (almost always, other boaters) perceptions of how to operate locks. I don't mind the help, and can cope with them doing daft things because I can control the boat even if its not quite approached as a technical military operation etc. The worst ones are when someone accidentally leaves a paddle open (or worse still because you can't see it, 1/4 open) but I've always been able to cope with the boat despite the unusual flows of water in the lock. So, opening the paddles before the boat is positioned right (can't she position it in time as they're closing the back gate?) is pretty mild and if there's a queue, I'd encourage it. Maybe your wife is underconfident at driving the boat in locks?

 

The only time I've actually had to stop someone is when they stepped onto the boat as I was (nearly there) approaching a lock landing and they were going to tie the front rope! I knew they were being helpful though, and meant no harm, so a simple "It's alright mate, don't worry" was sufficient rather than being angry, starting a thread on an internet forum and writing any letters etc.

 

As stated in the other thread, canals AREN'T for the exlusive use of one boater at a time, you need to learn to cope with interacting with other boaters (and other waterways users), and in a friendly way.

You have never had two helpfull boaters whip the top paddles up on the Napton flight just as your partner is closing the bottom gate as you come in. No way will you control the bout unles it's a very light short boat with a lot of power.

[mayalld]

I don't believe for one minute they were hiding behind a bush or in a brew house for him to arrive , it's perfectly possible when entering a lock, before closing the gates to let them know in reasonable terms that you would like to operate the locks on your own.

 

I am sure they are here to stay so you need to learn to with them or a strategy that lets them know politely that their assistance is not required.

 

You failure to comprehend the layout at the lock in question would apear to be at fault.

 

At Bosley top lock, there is a sanitary station on the off side, with a BW brew room and the end closest to the tail gates.

 

As we approached the lock, on the towpath side, there was nobody on the lockside, and as we entered, the volunteers emerged from the brew room and made their way to the tail gates.

 

At no point did they make the SLIGHTEST attempt to enquire as to whether we wanted help. They simply imposed their assistance on us.

 

And you want me to come up with a strategy to deal politely with people too ignorant to ask. You want me to go out of my way to engage people who haven't arsed themselves to engage with me?

 

Unreal

[Chertsey]

Well, this has certainly taken off while I was out buying some starch.

 

I have to say it would need to be a wonderfully fast-emptying lock for it to be necessary to be clear of the cill before *starting* to empty it, BUT that does presuppose that the person operating the lock is alert to the possibility that the steerer may be having difficulties getting/staying forward (ref. My experience at Colwich when a top paddle was slightly open). But all the same it is surely courtesy and good practice to get the nod from the steerer before beginning to wind. And you would expect volunteer lockies above all to demonstrate courtesy and good practice.

 

I did a double take last week, woman steered a boat into the lock, bloke shut the gate, I was at the other end, windlass poised. Looked at her and asked ok? She wasn't paying attention at all but the bloke on the bank said it was! I made a point of getting a signal from the actual steerer before starting though. And that's ME - and I'm pretty gung ho.

 

You have never had two helpfull boaters whip the top paddles up on the Napton flight just as your partner is closing the bottom gate as you come in. No way will you control the bout unles it's a very light short boat with a lot of power.

Or a very long heavy one?