Another Canal Death

[Boat&Bikes]

We seem to have bred generations of stupid, unthinking people that take no responsibility for their own actions and blame someone else when they screw up. I stand by my remark.

This lad has blamed who exactly?

[frangar]

We seem to have bred generations of stupid, unthinking people that take no responsibility for their own actions and blame someone else when they screw up. I stand by my remark.

 

Couldnt agree more!!

 

Edited to add:

It seems that others think the he isnt to blame for being an idiot so it must mean that the lock/canal/world is unsafe and must be made so that no can injure themselves even if they are somewhat lacking in the common sense department!!

 

 

Gareth

Edited December 7, 2011 by frangar

[Sir Nibble]

When we went out cruising last summer, we made the error of going out at the height of the school holidays. It was a simple case of not having any other time to go due to work commitments. The one thing that struck me though was the lack of supervision of children especially around locks. We saw quite small children being sent to operate the paddles many of which were very stiff and quite dangerous when they slipped back down at some speed down once released. I remember thinking it's only going to be a matter of time before a child is injured or drowned. As boating has become a more popular family holiday option, I feel more safety rules need to be applied simply because you can't rely on some parents to see or think about the obvious. To a regular, seasoned boat owner, the safety precautions are obvious and don't need spelling out but to others, it does need a loudhaler unfortunately. I really wouldn't want to read about a child being hurt when with a few big hints posted on a sign and maybe some new safety precautions it could be avoided.

I was thinking the other day about lock safety and lack of hirer training and I thought, why don't they put "interpretation boards" at selected locks. Ones near hire bases and where gongoozlers gather. Instead of blethering on about some bloke the lock was named after in 1979 they should have detailed drawings of the mechanisms and relate the operation of the lock including cill warnings and suchlike. The gongoozlers would get an improved experience by walking round a succession of boards to each gate and paddle in sequence,recognising features in the chamber and so on. Watching a boat worked through would make more sense and of course for the new hirer it's on the spot instruction.

 

Thats not true..quite a number drown tombstoning off rocks and piers.

Not round my way that I have heard of. I did suddenly think of tombstoning just after I posted but despite dire warnings I've not heard of any deaths. Even so, it doesn't impinge on the point I wanted to make in relation to doing something damned silly after a few drinks.

Your point is taken however and I concede my earlier claim was ill thought out.

[carlt]

OK people get into difficulties swimming or boating but we just don't have pissed idiots killing themselves falling in whilst playing silly buggers.

No tombstoning, on the South coast, then?

 

Edited because Dalesman got in first.

 

Not round my way that I have heard of. I did suddenly think of tombstoning just after I posted but despite dire warnings I've not heard of any deaths.

 

From ROSPA:

 

Over the five year period 2004-2008 - 139 incidents required a rescue or emergency response, 12 of these ended in a fatality.

Edited December 7, 2011 by carlt

[Midnight Rider]

I really wouldn't want to read about a child being hurt when with a few big hints posted on a sign and maybe some new safety precautions it could be avoided.

Might I suggest that the parents of children who run around out of control at locks won't be reading signs -- they are there just to absolve BW of liability IMO. And don't forget we are multi-cultural, any signs will have to be in at least a dozen languages.

[Sir Nibble]

No tombstoning, on the South coast, then?

 

Edited because Dalesman got in first.

 

 

 

From ROSPA:

Carl, I was talking about my area where as FAR AS I AM AWARE there have been no deaths.

Regardless of that, I had thought I had politely conceded the point already.

[Nightwatch]

When I was a lad, oh! no not that again. Anyway when I was a lad I was brung up near a Canal and we used to go and play near the Canal. Never once did I nor any of me mates fall into the Canal.

 

And we were probably little so and so's back then.

 

Accidents do happen. And they will keep on happening. This chap didn't mean to kill himself. He actually thought he could make it.

 

Martyn

[nina]

As much as I dislike health and safety red tape, BW don't appear to have brought their policy upto date to reflect the numbers of people using the canals. I know it's not rocket science but the industry has gone from being an industrialised working environment to a leisure industry. We saw young children running along the gunnels and climbing through the hatch playing a game while their boat was going down inside the lock. Mum was stood on the side happily waving to the kids while dad was operating the boat and grandma was on the wine. I discreetly suggested the dangers involved, which she was clearly oblivious to because she just shrugged her shoulders and carried on waving to children as they ran along the gunnels again. I asked if it was the first time for them on a boat to which she said yes. I walked away stupified. Because it's sold as a relaxing, peaceful, getaway from it all holiday, I don't think some parents grasp the reality of how dangers are ever present. It's just not in their vision.

[David Mack]

Carl, I was talking about my area where as FAR AS I AM AWARE there have been no deaths.

 

Because it happens so frequently that its no longer newsworthy?

 

One or two people die in a train accident or a couple of hundred in an aircrash and its headline news. Thousands die on the roads every year and barely get a mention.

[Nightwatch]

Carl, I was talking about my area where as FAR AS I AM AWARE there have been no deaths.

Regardless of that, I had thought I had politely conceded the point already.

I live not far from you then. If I remember correctly, there are signs in the likely areas that idiots may be tempted to throw themselves into shallow water, for fun, and in some cases fences and barriers in place to deter such actions.

 

So, put up notices/signs, erect barriers and fences put in lights, drain the canal as well, but you will still get some hero who believes he can 'make it' to impress his mates.

 

Martyn

[Boat&Bikes]

Couldnt agree more!!

 

Edited to add:

It seems that others think the he isnt to blame for being an idiot so it must mean that the lock/canal/world is unsafe and must be made so that no can injure themselves even if they are somewhat lacking in the common sense department!!

 

 

Gareth

 

 

The canals are unsafe are they not?

[bottle]

No, canals are safe it just the few idiots that make them unsafe.

 

The old, 'You can make something fool proof but not idiot proof.

 

Seems to fit.

[frangar]

No, canals are safe it just the few idiots that make them unsafe.

 

The old, 'You can make something fool proof but not idiot proof.

 

Seems to fit.

 

Indeed!

 

People have to realise that they are not in theme park with all the risks removed....some things need respect due to things like deep water, moving parts etc....the main problem is because some of life has had all the risk removed people think that everything they come in contact with can do them no harm however daft they are.

 

Gareth

[Sir Nibble]

Because it happens so frequently that its no longer newsworthy?

 

One or two people die in a train accident or a couple of hundred in an aircrash and its headline news. Thousands die on the roads every year and barely get a mention.

Hells teeth! What do I have to do! No it's not because it happens so frequently that it's no longer newsworthy, don't be rediculous.

For the final time... Some posts back, when tombstoning was first mentioned I posted something to the effect of "oh yea, I forgot that" and went on to concede the point and admit my post had been ill considered. Alright? Now what do I have to do to get a civil retraction accepted? Mea culpa, sackcloth and ashes are all mine.

[adam1uk]

Because it happens so frequently that its no longer newsworthy?

 

According to Carl's figures from RoSPA, 12 deaths in five years. And that's over 11,000 miles of coastline. Hardly frequent.

[carlt]

Regardless of that, I had thought I had politely conceded the point already.

While I was looking up the numbers.

 

I thought it still worth leaving up, though, just to show that the canals are not quite the death traps that some might have us think.

 

Common sense prevailed, in Leicester, despite the FB campaign, when another drunk fell in and killed himself.

 

Let's hope the same thing happens in this case.

 

According to Carl's figures from RoSPA, 12 deaths in five years. And that's over 11,000 miles of coastline. Hardly frequent.

The vast majority of that coastline is "unsuitable" (for want of a better word) for tombstoning, though.

[matty40s]

"Nina Posted Today, 05:54 PM

When we went out cruising last summer, we made the error of going out at the height of the school holidays. It was a simple case of not having any other time to go due to work commitments. The one thing that struck me though was the lack of supervision of children especially around locks. We saw quite small children being sent to operate the paddles many of which were very stiff and quite dangerous when they slipped back down at some speed down once released. I remember thinking it's only going to be a matter of time before a child is injured or drowned. As boating has become a more popular family holiday option, I feel more safety rules need to be applied simply because you can't rely on some parents to see or think about the obvious. To a regular, seasoned boat owner, the safety precautions are obvious and don't need spelling out but to others, it does need a loudhaler unfortunately. I really wouldn't want to read about a child being hurt when with a few big hints posted on a sign and maybe some new safety precautions it could be avoided."

 

I wonder if one of those you saw was my Olivia(now 12) and her friends who join her on board, she has done locks for me Summer and Winter for the last 4 years, gives me a signal if it's too difficult and needs a hand. Oh, and she also steers the boat occasionally.

I will have a word and tell her to stay indoors next time she comes on board. She can stick to her I-Pod like wot kids r supposed to do nowadays.

[Boat&Bikes]

Indeed!

 

People have to realise that they are not in theme park with all the risks removed....some things need respect due to things like deep water, moving parts etc....the main problem is because some of life has had all the risk removed people think that everything they come in contact with can do them no harm however daft they are.

 

Gareth

Never fell in then Gareth?

[JDR]

I think the title of this post implies that there has been a recent spate of canal based deaths. It can also be read to suggest that canals are in someway the causal factor in these deaths. One death is too many but I was thinking of all the rivers, lakes and waterways in Britain, and wondered what percentage the navigable system represents? At somewhere between 2500-3000 miles (stand to be corrected) and passing through most of the large urban centres I would suggest a fair amount. Of the longest rivers in Britain six of the top ten are navigable. I think the question should be why are there not more deaths on Britain's Inland Waterways?

[Dalesman]

Press Notice No: 204-11

Saturday, July 30, 2011

Posted 23:21 GMT

 

MAN EXTRACTED FROM RAVINE BY COASTGUARDS FOLLOWING TOMBSTONING INCIDENT

 

A young man has been extracted from a ravine by coastguards and taken to hospital by air ambulance after a tombstoning jump went wrong.

 

Aberdeen Coastguard were contacted by the police at 6.00 pm this evening to request assistance for a man in his early twenties who they suspected had jumped off of a bridge into a ravine on the River Glascarnoch near Garve, 20 miles north-west of Inverness and broken both his ankles. Ambulance paramedics had already made an initial assessment of the scene and, due to the terrain, requested coastguard assistance.

 

Aberdeen Coastguard scrambled the coastguard helicopter form Stornoway and requested coastguard teams from Inverness, Portmahomack and Dornoch to attend the scene. When the coastguards arrived, they set up their rope equipment and scaled down the side of the ravine to the man. He was put on a spinal board on a special flat based dinghy and floated down the river, then transferred onto the awaiting air ambulance and airlifted to Raigmore Hospital in Inverness.

 

Aberdeen Coastguard Watch Manager, Kevin Brown says:

Jumping from bridges, piers, cliffs or other structures into water can be very dangerous. You do not know what lurks under the surface and the depth of tidal waters changes considerably. If you want to jump from height into water, you may wish to join a coasteering trip with a reputable adventure centre or go to a swimming pool where there are diving boards. In the past six years there have been 16 deaths and 50 serious injuries caused by tombstoning

 

From the MCA webpage.

Edited December 7, 2011 by Dalesman

[Stormbringer]

I think the title of this post implies that there has been a recent spate of canal based deaths. It can also be read to suggest that canals are in someway the causal factor in these deaths.

 

Yes - on reflection JDR you are right ! I could have titled the thread better.

 

I was not implying that the canals are the responsible for the deaths - just that there is potential there.

Sometimes familiarity can breed contempt, and I have been guilty of this myself after a few days aboard.

It's all too easy to drop your guard at times, especially when you are having fun...

 

Andy

[Tony Sutton]

Hi, Just come across your forum and this particular topic.

I am the father of Michael who drowned in the T & M canal on the 3rd of December.

Purely registered and am posting to answer a lot of your arguments / opinions.

Yes the canal & so is any water that is not respected very dangerous.

Where we live you basically grew up around or in the canal, as kids & as a family we used to

slide down the overflows & regularly swam in it. Only earlier this year Mike was indeed

swimming in it. I have not read all of the posts but have seen a few that have remarked without

knowing the facts, and have stereotyped a teenager. He was not drunk, post mortem showed

83mg in blood (just on drink drive limit i believe). Of course there are people both old and young

who will drink & be invincible. Seen a forty year old man dive into a lake & break his neck when drunk.

Jumping the lock where we live has happened for years, grandfathers, fathers & kids, I'm sure it will

continue. Mike had jumped it on numerous occasions but was tought not to jump the canal when

it was down, at night or if he was alone. Showing off to his GF, in the wrong place, whatever

you call it, it was an accident, it hard for me to say that, but that what it was. And btw it was not

a cardiac rest before, jst a slip, miss of the edge, banging his chin on the opposite side and drowning.

Just hope this answers a few questions.

I am all for health & safety due to working in engineering & the water industry, but like I said accidents

are going to happen.

Feel free to comment / disagree in anyway, I will not take offence.

 

Oh & just for ref, this was the actual lock where it happened not as linked in other posts.

Wish it was the one by the pub then he probably would have been fished out.

 

http://g.co/maps/zywfa

 

Thanks

Edited December 21, 2011 by Tony Sutton

[JDR]

Tony, thank you for taking the time to tell the whole story. I'm very sorry for your loss and I'd like to apologise if any comment I made in any way trivialised your loss. I cannot speak for anybody else on this forum but I doubt very strongly that anybody else will offer anything but sincere condolences at what you so aptly described as an accident- that could have happened to anybody.

 

John

[Starcoaster]

Welcome Tony, and first of all, so sorry that you have come to be here under such awful circumstances.

 

Apologies if conjecture on the forum here has led to distress for you and your family at what is already obviously a terrible time for you all.

I guess that by virtue of the fact that it was reported as near to a pub where Mike died, people have put two and two together and come up with five, and we all know what they say about 'assumptions.'

 

I have been reading and re reading what you have written here for quite some time now, and trying to formulate the words for what I want to say.

 

What I mainly want to say of course, is that regardless of the circumstances, your Son's death was an awful tragedy, and I should think that everyone who has read about it or knows about it both on and off of this forum is very sorry that it happened, and has the greatest empathy you and your family at this time.

 

I also think that you have spoken here with the utmost dignity and grace when essentially you have just read the opinions of people unknown to you who have made judgements, gotten and given incorrect or unconfirmed information, and possibly hold opinions that must be very hard for you to hear right now about your Son.

 

Addressing some of the points you make in your post though, I feel that I do have to stand up and say that I am not in agreement with all of them.

 

The canal is a potentially dangerous place. You mention that Mike swam in it earlier this year, and it is just this kind of thing that most boaters shudder to hear about.

Swimming in the canal is not safe for so many reasons, from the obvious ones such as oncoming boats, to things that might not even occur to a lot of people, like Weil's disease and the multitude of other nasties that can and as documented, sometimes are contracted from contact with canal water.

 

I totally understand that in years gone by, swimming in canals was a very regular and normal occurrence, and that it must be very hard to see something that you and your family have always partaken in without coming to grief over, as no longer ok due to the sometimes overzealous 'elf and safety police.

 

But swimming in the canals simply should not be considered to be just a bit of a giggle, because people do get sick and they do get hurt. There was a thread here not so long ago about some bottom dweller regularly pumping out the untreated contents of his toilet holding tank into the canal, and that's just one incident I can think of.

 

Canals aren't for messing about with or around. Playing in the canal or with equipment on the canals can be fatal, and sadly sometimes is.

Mike isn't the first preventable canal death that happened this year, and I am sure there will be more in future, which is tragic.

 

Also I tend to think that normalising something like this tradition that you mention of jumping the lock and feeling that it has always gone on and probably will, is not cool.

Something really awful, your Son's death, happened as a result of the fact that jumping that lock/ locks in that area is apparently a common thing.

 

I have a lot of respect for the way that you accept the fact that it was a freak occurrence and just Mike's bad luck on that particular night, and are not seeking to extract revenge or start up a blame campaign against the Waterways for not having surrounded the whole area in warning signs, bollards and fencing.

 

I totally agree that young people (and people of my age and older...) will do daft things, and that is just the nature of humanity and life. We have all done it, me included, and most of us are still here to tell the tale. None of us have the right to make value judgements on anyone else because of it, it is simply part of what makes up the human condition.

 

But I do feel that it is disingenuous to think that what happened here can be simply labelled as an unlucky accident.

To me, an accident is something that you cannot realistically foresee, and prevent or protect yourself from.

Whereas jumping locks is a thrill seeking behaviour, and part of the appeal of it no doubt is the underlying element of risk.

As you say, generations of people have done it before with no problems, and Mike had also done it before without incident, but that doesn't mean it was ever safe. It just means that no one was as horribly unlucky as Mike was on the night that it went wrong for him.

 

The normalisation of risky behaviours like lock jumping is not a good thing, not for the people involved in it, nor the waterways users, or the friends and families that get left dealing with the aftermath. In my opinion, it should not be played down how preventable this tragedy was.

But mostly, I just want to reiterate again that I am sorry for what happened to Mike, however it happened.

 

Brightest blessings

 

Star. xxx

Edited December 21, 2011 by Starcoaster

[Dignity]

Hello Tony,I've no wish to speculate on the rights and wrongs of what was, as you say an accident.I'd just like to be able to send my condolences,sympathy,and thoughts personally,at what must be the most difficult of times.Better to have lived a single day as a lion than a hundred as a sheep.Blessing and strength. Richie

 

 

 

Edited to adjust a spelling error

Edited December 21, 2011 by Dignity