Narrow Boat Trust - where are you?

[carlt]

There seems to be a common denominator here as I used to be a Steerer for both the Narrow Boat Trust Ltd. (now the Narrow Boat Trust Company Ltd. per the new lettering on their boats) and the Friends of Raymond.

Well I didn't want to single out any individual, for blame, but, as you've raised your head above the parapet, yes, it probably is all your fault.

[WotEver]

Well I didn't want to single out any individual, for blame, but, as you've raised your head above the parapet, yes, it probably is all your fault.

It's always good to come to a satisfactory conclusion

 

Tony

[pete harrison]

Well I didn't want to single out any individual, for blame, but, as you've raised your head above the parapet, yes, it probably is all your fault.

 

I am sure the cause of all of my failings has been the lack of a first aid qualification !

[sociable_hermit]

Yes I do.

 

Good man.

 

Could you leave some beers out as well?

[carlt]

Good man.

 

Could you leave some beers out as well?

Does this mean I have to read all the way back, to remind myself exactly what it is, that I do?

[WotEver]

Does this mean I have to read all the way back, to remind myself exactly what it is, that I do?

Yes you do

[carlt]

Yes you do

Okay, I have read back and yes, of course I will leave beers out.

Edited July 21, 2010 by carlt

[magpie patrick]

Sorry Dave, but I don't believe what you keep repeating whenever NBT gets mentioned.

I think it contains a great amount of gross exageration, for instance I know for sure that there was no where near 15 people on board at the time.

Passing at full speed? I doubt that very much, are you saying they were doing 4mph? How do you know this, did you have a radar gun on you at the time ( it wouldn't surprise me)? What was the depth of the cut along that stretch? Were they having difficulty maintaining steerage? Were the moored boats tied up properly with springs and their pins in firm ground?

 

Dropping a rope onto the prop, I guess you mean the towing line (snubber or snatcher in correct parlance ) did this not happen after the motor got stemmed up? Although not desirable, an easy thing to do when the butty is fast catching up and you're having to make many snap decisions all at once.

So this situation caused a temporary hold up for another boat, well of course it did. It takes time to rectify problems doesn't it?

 

They issued instructions to you, omg! How could they even contemplate the very idea that they should even tentatively make any request to you which would slightly interfere with your obviously, supremely expert boating? Weren't they aware of who you were? Please except my apologies on their behalf for their ignorance.

 

Barking instructions to others? I think what you mean here is, as they were foreign tourists on a hire boat, perhaps they were inexperienced and perhaps their English wasn't so good. Maybe just maybe, the NBT crew were trying to help these people avoid a mishap of their own and either couldn't be heard over the noise of engines, gushing water etc.

Voices get raised in these circumstances, it's unavoidable. I can quite understand the lady being reduced to tears, boating is dangerous at times and she probably didn't realise this when contemplating a boating holiday.

 

I'm not attempting to excuse anyones behaviour, every, and I mean every, insident,complaint or accident is thoroughly investigated by NBT and acted upon accordingly.

It gets rather tiring having to justify NBTs' existance every time they get metioned on here but because I believe that it's not only a great organisation run entirely by volunteers,

it's also a fantastic opportunity available to anyone ( even you Dave ), I will continue to do so.

 

Keith Norfolk

Chairman

Narrow Boat Trust Ltd.

 

I can not account for the veracity of Dave's remarks because I was not there when he was, I am also not sure which boats are NBT and which are others.

 

However, with the exception of sole traders ("lifestyle operators" as they are known to BW) I can give far more instances of preserved working boats being crewed in a boorish manner than I would wish were the case. I am in some agreement with Carlt, it is good skills are kept alive. However, too many working boat crews genuinely believe they are still working for a living (in fact, generally not "still" as they are not old enough to have ever worked) and do not take account that there are others using the canal. To put it bluntly, you have to get along with them, and when it is Dave Mayall and me moaning it is very experienced boaters moaning.

 

Why not go away and assess whether there is some, possibly even a lot, of truth in the allegations made against you rather than defending with platitudes like poor english and engine noise. I can explain, in personable terms, to a foreigner what they need to do as long as they had some grasp of english. Your volunteers seem to lack interpersonal skills. Also, despite your defence, I would suggest the crew did not have suitable skills if they got themselves in the mess described. To put it bluntly, the steerer of the motor was not steering taking into account he had a butty behind him.

 

If you are getting tired of us, I'm afraid some of us are getting tired of you. As chairman of a canal society I have several adages but one of them is "we must be seen to be a 'Good Thing' if we are not, we will lose support" You are in danger of not being seen to be a "Good Thing"

Edited July 21, 2010 by magpie patrick

[the grinch]

As chairman of a canal society I have several adages but one of them is "we must be seen to be a 'Good Thing' if we are not, we will lose support" You are in danger of not being seen to be a "Good Thing"

 

 

can't help but to agree with the above, as Maintenance of the Wey & Arun Canal falls under my remit it has become very clear that we need to be seen to behave in a very appropriate manner to continue to recieve the public's support. the bridge parapets fiasco at Loxwood is a good example of how easily people get upset when things go wrong.

 

like several others have said as chairman you need to look at what is really happening when the crew think they are not being watched! it may surprise you!

 

it only takes 1 person to tell another and its off like a greyhound especially in these days of internet & mobile phones.

 

I have nothing against the NBT or any other volunteer group and have only met the boats once about 6 years ago and sadly on that occasion they were less than friendly (not the only group though to be like this)

 

get a grip of the situation before it turns from a bit of bitching on a forum to something more serious is my advice.

 

good luck and I hope that the NBT has a successful season

 

kev

[Hairy-Neil]

I am sure the cause of all of my failings has been the lack of a first aid qualification !

 

Well I I have one (through necessity rather than choice) but have to say, it was instilled in us on the course that we were all volunteers and had no obligation, legal or moral, to use the skills we learned that day. So in all a rather pointless exercise.....

[ditchcrawler]

The largest fleet of steam narrow boats was that operated by Fellows, Morton & Clayton Ltd., Birmingham and it is their records that still seem to exist the best. Any documented F.M.C. Ltd. reference that I have refers to the person in charge of their steamers by name and not position, so this does not answer your question.

 

I have therefore just spoken with Richard Thomas who has seen considerably more steamer documentation than I have as these boats are his field of interest. He says that if the (F.M.C. Ltd.) steamer was running 'fly' then the term for the person in charge was usually "Captain", but if running 'slow' it was usually "Steerer". He also said that the second in command was the "Mate" whilst the people operating the steam plant were the "Driver" and "Drivers Mate".

 

As the narrow steamers were very much in the minority I am sticking with my previous statement and shall continue to use the term "Steerer". I can also add that the term used for the person in charge during a health registration / inspection was "Master".

Thanks for going to all that trouble, I raised it because you often see Captain mentioned with respect to the steam boats, but none other.

Brian

[twbm]

Oh, I certainly wouldn't dispute that.

 

However, if you set yourself on a pedestal (as NBT do), your behaviour must be of the very highest standard

 

Just got back from the boats (they are at Burghfield) and having searched them both from stem to stern cannot find our pedestal - we need a new one.

 

Where did you get yours?

[magpie patrick]

Just got back from the boats (they are at Burghfield) and having searched them both from stem to stern cannot find our pedestal - we need a new one.

 

Where did you get yours?

 

 

I'm sure you've got to Burghfield without complaint, although the K and A was not built for narrow boats

 

Not specifically aimed at you, but an example of how possibly to handle things. A few years ago, before I was Chairman, we had a work party, and lit a bonfire (we were in countryside, not in town). At about the same time, unbeknown to us, a couple in a nearby cottage put their laundry out. Needless to say, within fifteen minutes we had a roaring fire, they had sooty washing. When the inevitable complaint came, our diplomat walked round, examined the mess and said "bag it, put it in my car, I'll take it to a laundrette and we will pay for wash and tumble dry"

 

The complaint was withdrawn, and the offer was refused, and the couple are now supporters of the society

 

I'll add one more adage... you ALWAYS get the respect you deserve....

[rrt2]

The picture shows the space and the water level and a boat passing, true, but it shows it the next morning not the night before so as evidence the 1000 words it speaks are not by any means a truth. It isnt evidence of anything that happened the previous day. There is always more water in the canal in the morning. The picture is certainly not representative of the view that the steerer had through the small gap of the bridge hole. He would have been up to 90' behind the bridge and his line of sight lower down. Given that he had only just picked up the nearly new boat that afternoon the last thing he would have wanted to do would have been to scrape the paint off.

 

This picture was zoomed or cropped in such away the eye of the viewer is probably (I'm guessing here) 60' forward of the bridge and 10 feet above the water. Our intrepid hirer never got anywhere near that close. He had to go with his best guess of what he saw and that was he couldn't pass. It doesnt matter what your NBT crews thought, the man with his hand on the tiller had ultimate responsibility for the craft

 

So I think this statement like many of the statements you have made in this thread is more flim flam and snake oil

 

 

maffi,

You live/moor maybe half a mile from the bridge, if you print out or make a sketch of the photo you could get a much better idea of the composition of the pictures I took. Camera at eye level about 5"6' standing on the lift bridge, next to the hand rail on the gunpowder wharf side.

We moored on the water point took on water about 15 litres at the most

As soon as we were moored (gone 8-30 ) I walked to the pub to ask what time they stopped doing food ( its 9-30 by the way) I was expecting it to be 9-00, Walked back to the boats, I saw one boat on the water point. To the best of my knowledge they made no attempt to lift the bridge and try to get past us. Even if they had come through where would they have got to at that time of the night.

 

We came down the Oxford that day from Aynho, we had a problem with the bottom being to near the top at the last three locks before mooring at Thrupp. At the locks mentioned above the pound was flowing over the weir so that means the pound is full. We would also have let more water into the Thrupp pound by having to flush the motor and the butty out of said locks.

There was a private boat (Lionel) following ( they were really marvelous with us as despite being asked if they wanted to go by the said no and the gent on the boat helped us to get the butty out of one lock and also unstick the motor at another. We saw no other boats behind us that day. The fabled hire boat that we apparently held up by mooring at Thrupp in the place advised by the mooring warden only appeared much later and my own thoughts are that mrsmelly caused there "hold up " if indeed they actually were held up by incorrectly telling them that they could not get past us. Again the following day we had a long wait for a fallen tree to to be cleared and again the hire boat from Thrupp was not seen.

 

You seem to have a lot of knowledge about the hire boat in question Yet gunpowder wharf is a good half mile from the lift bridge at Thrupp.

[Steilsteven]

can't help but to agree with the above, as Maintenance of the Wey & Arun Canal falls under my remit it has become very clear that we need to be seen to behave in a very appropriate manner to continue to recieve the public's support. the bridge parapets fiasco at Loxwood is a good example of how easily people get upset when things go wrong.

 

like several others have said as chairman you need to look at what is really happening when the crew think they are not being watched! it may surprise you!

 

it only takes 1 person to tell another and its off like a greyhound especially in these days of internet & mobile phones.

 

I have nothing against the NBT or any other volunteer group and have only met the boats once about 6 years ago and sadly on that occasion they were less than friendly (not the only group though to be like this)

 

get a grip of the situation before it turns from a bit of bitching on a forum to something more serious is my advice.

 

good luck and I hope that the NBT has a successful season

 

kev

 

All fair comment Kev, Patrick and Carl but you have to agree that it's very difficult to be all seeing all knowing.

I don't believe for a moment that all our members are angels but I have to allow trust to enter the equasion, without it we might as well pack it in.

Also, I realise that it's impossible to be pleasant to everyone one encounters for the duration of a trip. Who on here can honestly say that they've never apeared grumpy to someone they've never met before ( not intensionally I might add ) purely because they've had a difficult day?

 

There are people out there who, when they encounter our boats, President and Kildare or practically any volunteer run boats, that will hurl abuse at them without any justification

other than that they may have met the boats before in bad circumstances, or worse had heard some tittle tattle about them. I have had first hand experience of this on many occassions, with different boats at different times over many years and it's very hard to take it on the chin without reacting. What these people don't seem to realise is the crew they're hurling this abuse at are very unlikely to be the ones they encountered or heard about before, so bewilderment and indignation ensues.

 

On the whole, we get a great deal of support, encouragement and appreciation wherever we take the boats which more than makes up for the knocks.

It pleases me that this thread, in the main, has been supportive.

 

Keith.

[Roger t' Bodger]

Having got home from another battery of tedious tests at the Spital (our tests show that there is no cure), l'm still puzzled at this figure of 15 members seen crewing the boats. I only say that, as normally the Trust can get a total of 5 or 6, at best, to crew and help with flight of locks etc. But it does really concerns me that NBT members can be off with the public and other boaters, but you can't choose members and their demeanor. I remember this issue was brought up a number of times at council meetings (before the jacuzzi business on the agenda) and how everyone there thought this was very important stance to take. Personally I couldn't imagine behaving in any manner other than open handed friendliness and inclusiveness to share my pleasure with others less fortunate. (Poor souls - they don't know what they're missing!)

 

Anyway I'm grateful that Dave M stuck to his guns and insists that this is the gospel truth of his encounter with the NBT and I will make sure that this matter is included in the next issue of the fabulous Steerer magazine that all members read (and is available if you approach a member on the boats, pro-offering a donation) This sort of behaviour needs to quelled in the face of such argy bargy.

 

The beer should be cold by now....

[the grinch]

All fair comment Kev, Patrick and Carl but you have to agree that it's very difficult to be all seeing all knowing.

 

It pleases me that this thread, in the main, has been supportive.

 

Keith.

 

 

yes i would definately agree, our own boats luckily don't encounter this attitude as they are the only users at the moment, sadly some of our crew/skippers are just as capable of cocking it up! even after training. some have taken the training more than a few times and still not made the grade.

[the grinch]

just seen on boats and canals someone on a private boat sitting on the bottom of the top lock in a staircase! so even private boats get it wrong sometimes!

 

http://www.boatsandcanals.co.uk/phpBB3/vie...f=16&t=6701

[mayalld]

Even if they had come through where would they have got to at that time of the night.

 

Now, there you go with the arrogant assumption that YOU are the working boaters and that as such, you are the ones to judge whether another boater has any "need" to pass that point.

 

Please understand that this is NOT your business. Regardless of whether YOU believe that they have any reason to pass at that time of night, they have a right to do so.

 

 

All fair comment Kev, Patrick and Carl but you have to agree that it's very difficult to be all seeing all knowing.

I don't believe for a moment that all our members are angels but I have to allow trust to enter the equasion, without it we might as well pack it in.

Also, I realise that it's impossible to be pleasant to everyone one encounters for the duration of a trip. Who on here can honestly say that they've never apeared grumpy to someone they've never met before ( not intensionally I might add ) purely because they've had a difficult day?

 

There are people out there who, when they encounter our boats, President and Kildare or practically any volunteer run boats, that will hurl abuse at them without any justification

other than that they may have met the boats before in bad circumstances, or worse had heard some tittle tattle about them. I have had first hand experience of this on many occassions, with different boats at different times over many years and it's very hard to take it on the chin without reacting. What these people don't seem to realise is the crew they're hurling this abuse at are very unlikely to be the ones they encountered or heard about before, so bewilderment and indignation ensues.

 

On the whole, we get a great deal of support, encouragement and appreciation wherever we take the boats which more than makes up for the knocks.

It pleases me that this thread, in the main, has been supportive.

 

Keith.

 

So much for dealing appropriately with problems.

 

Sorry, Keith, but it looks like you are in denial.

[twbm]

Having got home from another battery of tedious tests at the Spital (our tests show that there is no cure), l'm still puzzled at this figure of 15 members seen crewing the boats. I only say that, as normally the Trust can get a total of 5 or 6, at best, to crew and help with flight of locks etc. But it does really concerns me that NBT members can be off with the public and other boaters, but you can't choose members and their demeanor. I remember this issue was brought up a number of times at council meetings (before the jacuzzi business on the agenda) and how everyone there thought this was very important stance to take. Personally I couldn't imagine behaving in any manner other than open handed friendliness and inclusiveness to share my pleasure with others less fortunate. (Poor souls - they don't know what they're missing!)

 

Anyway I'm grateful that Dave M stuck to his guns and insists that this is the gospel truth of his encounter with the NBT and I will make sure that this matter is included in the next issue of the fabulous Steerer magazine that all members read (and is available if you approach a member on the boats, pro-offering a donation) This sort of behaviour needs to quelled in the face of such argy bargy.

 

The beer should be cold by now....

 

Roger,

 

We have discussed this at council and have already taken pro-active steps to avoid this sort of unfortunate incident in the future. What we can't deal with is people who take any opportunity to repeatedly revive old incidents long after we are in a position to effectively investigate matters, regurgitating previously aired complaints to so as to denigrate the Trust. Some of the contributors to this thread should consider that if no matter how hard we try to get it right we are still going to have incidents from months or years ago thrown back at us, we might be forgiven for not bothering.

 

Whilst I'm at it:

 

We have never purported to be experts. Far from it - as has been said repeatedly many of our crew are inexperienced.

If any of our crews pull the 'make way for working boats' stunt please PM me straight away. The only boats that belong to the trust have got Narrow Boat Trust written on the side of the tin. (That I think being one of the reasons we are so easy to target - if we hid behind the livery of a long dead carrying company we'd be lost in the crowd.)

 

Moving forward, if there is credible evidence that we have got things wrong we will do our best to remedy the situation. An opportunity to address issues before they go public would be appreciated. If we are unjustly criticised we will defend ourselves vigourously.

 

Meanwhile, it seems there really is no such thing as bad publicity - two new potential members from this thread.

 

We will be at Newbury this weekend - feel free to come and talk to us face to face, it's so much better when you get the non-verbal communication too.

 

Trevor Winterbottom

NBT Council Member

Other contact details on the NBT website.

Edited July 21, 2010 by twbm

[blodger]

Now, there you go with the arrogant assumption that YOU are the working boaters and that as such, you are the ones to judge whether another boater has any "need" to pass that point.

 

Please understand that this is NOT your business. Regardless of whether YOU believe that they have any reason to pass at that time of night, they have a right to do so.

 

 

 

 

So much for dealing appropriately with problems.

 

Sorry, Keith, but it looks like you are in denial.

 

Whilst I agree that it is none of NBT's business whether a boat wants to pass and when etc, I read the question rhetorically and more about the difficulty of finding a mooring in that location after late afternoon and how chancy it is cruising into the dark and finding a suitable mooring in time. Indeed, those comfortably moored look at you askance as you glide past late on. I did not read it that because NBT had moored everyone else should be.

[rrt2]

Now, there you go with the arrogant assumption that YOU are the working boaters and that as such, you are the ones to judge whether another boater has any "need" to pass that point.

 

 

Please understand that this is NOT your business. Regardless of whether YOU believe that they have any reason to pass at that time of night, they have a right to do so.

 

I am not a working boater and even when many years ago I had my own pair I never thought I was a working boater just someone who was in a position to be able to own and run a pair.

 

Its very easy to take just a small part from a post to suit your own agenda whatever that may be.

 

It is my business unlike you I was there and I am a member of the trust.

 

Also we did not stop them WE NEVER SAW THEM MAKE ANY ATTEMPT TO COME THROUGH THE LIFT BRIDGE. As I have said repeatedly if another person spoke to them and advised them not to attempt to pass the pair then its up to him. We cannot be held responsible for other peoples actions or deeds.

 

Barry Adams

Narrow Boat Trust crew member at Thrupp

Also Narrow Boat Trust Crewing Co-ordinator ( full details on our web site )

PS keep it up we have 2 new members just from here.

Edited July 21, 2010 by barry adams

[Roger t' Bodger]

Chill you guys, it's getting all too much!

 

http://www.vimeo.com/6210077 shows how it should be done

 

How we temper our misrable existances in this day and age should be also tempered by respect for each other....

[mayalld]

I am not a working boater and even when many years ago I had my own pair I never thought I was a working boater just someone who was in a position to be able to own and run a pair.

 

Its very easy to take just a small part from a post to suit your own agenda whatever that may be.

 

It is my business unlike you I was there and I am a member of the trust.

 

Also we did not stop them WE NEVER SAW THEM MAKE ANY ATTEMPT TO COME THROUGH THE LIFT BRIDGE. As I have said repeatedly if another person spoke to them and advised them not to attempt to pass the pair then its up to him. We cannot be held responsible for other peoples actions or deeds.

 

Barry Adams

Narrow Boat Trust crew member at Thrupp

Also Narrow Boat Trust Crewing Co-ordinator ( full details on our web site )

PS keep it up we have 2 new members just from here.

 

Might I suggest that you follow the example of a couple of your fellow members, and accept that there have been instances where the crew of NBT boats have behaved so as to bring the trust into disrepute, and that such instances have a long term effect, in terms of how people see the trust.

 

I welcome the apparent acceptance that there is a need to attend to such problems promptly and properly, rather than sweeping them under the carpet.

 

Perhaps you should read my post again, and delay commenting until you have fully digested it. I am not claiming that you made any deliberate attempt to stop people coming through, or that anybody tried to come through and was unable to do so.

 

What I am saying is that your attitude would appear to be that even if you were blocking the channel (and I don't know whether that was the case or not, but it isn't relevant to what I am saying here) that is OK, because nobody should have any reason for passing at that time.

 

Well it wouldn't be OK, just as mooring on a water point at dusk with an airy "Oh, we'll be off at first light" isn't OK.

 

It wouldn't be OK, because however inexplicable somebody's wish to travel at a particular time may be to you, it really ISN'T any of your business. If (for example) I choose to cruise up and down that stretch between the winding holes either side from dusk until dawn, then that is MY business, and even if it appears to you that I have no reason whatsoever for doing so, you mustn't moor so as to obstruct me.

[blodger]

Chill you guys, it's getting all too much!

 

http://www.vimeo.com/6210077 shows how it should be done

 

How we temper our misrable existances in this day and age should be also tempered by respect for each other....

 

Thank your lucky stars NBT stopped at the water point only for water. If there had been any self pump-outing well ................................................................................

................................................................