confused what is 60/40 on diesel

[MrCJ]

hi there all

Now I keep seeing on alot of threads people going on about 60/40 on diesel what are they on about?? can you tell i still not got a boat, i just keep on learning.

[ymu]

hi there all

Now I keep seeing on alot of threads people going on about 60/40 on diesel what are they on about?? can you tell i still not got a boat, i just keep on learning.

You used to be able to use red diesel (reduced tax) for everything, but the rules have changed to bring it into line with European tax law - full tax for propulsion and reduced tax for domestic use. You can declare your own percentage split - and may have to justify it - but 60% full tax and 40% reduced is what the taxman has said will be considered reasonable for most boats, although those who live on their boats without mains electricity can easily justify more reduced tax than that. Many boatyards only do 60/40 because it saves them having to charge different prices for different splits.

[nb Innisfree]

Edited 'cos I'm thick.

Edited June 6, 2010 by nb Innisfree

[MrCJ]

You used to be able to use red diesel (reduced tax) for everything, but the rules have changed to bring it into line with European tax law - full tax for propulsion and reduced tax for domestic use. You can declare your own percentage split - and may have to justify it - but 60% full tax and 40% reduced is what the taxman has said will be considered reasonable for most boats, although those who live on their boats without mains electricity can easily justify more reduced tax than that. Many boatyards only do 60/40 because it saves them having to charge different prices for different splits.

 

ok thought it must of been something like that but wasnt sure thanks for the reply.

[dor]

I understand that the 60/40 was arrived at after questioning many boaters including a large number of marine types (think Phylis etc.) . These will obviously use a much higher percentage for propulsion than narrowboaters who use a significant part of their fuel for electricity generation and heating hot water, even if they do not have diesel heating.

You may like to bear this in mind when making your declaration.

[real_vibes]

I currently do all my tax via work on a PAYE.

 

How do you go about making the most of the tax relief if this is the case?

[magpie patrick]

I currently do all my tax via work on a PAYE.

 

How do you go about making the most of the tax relief if this is the case?

 

Not relevant, this is a sales tax, in the same way that VAT is. You pay it at the time of purchase.

 

BTW, I think any serious survey of the inland market would conclude that most boats, by any definition other than the most ludicrous, should pay more than 60% propulsion. I think HMRC, aware that enforcement costs way outstrip revenue decided that they could get Europe to swallow this split and we wouldn't protest too loudly

[ditchcrawler]

I currently do all my tax via work on a PAYE.

 

How do you go about making the most of the tax relief if this is the case?

You just tell the supplier you want 10% propulsion and 90% domestic, sign the declaration and away you go.

[CV32]

You just tell the supplier you want 10% propulsion and 90% domestic, sign the declaration and away you go.

 

The 60/40 split is often used - some choose to use it as a rule of thumb. The HMRC document

 

http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalW...tyType=document

 

States:

 

It is the purchaser’s, not the supplier’s, responsibility to declare the proportion of fuel used for propelling the craft. It is your responsibility to charge the correct amount of duty and VAT on the supply, see section 6 below.

 

The method of apportionment introduced under this scheme may only be applied to supplies of marked gas oil, not to supplies of other fuels, such as white diesel or petrol.

 

 

3.8 What if a private user claims 100% is used for non propulsion purposes?

In recognition of their status, residential boat owners, whose primary, or often their only, place of residence is their boat, are allowed to purchase all of their fuel at the rebated rate. If a private user claims such status and claims that 100% of their fuel is for purposes other than propulsion, then you may supply the fuel without charging any additional duty and without a declaration, but you should note your records accordingly. See paragraph 4.7 for more information.

 

If you have any reason to doubt the validity of the status being claimed then you should note your records to that effect.

 

 

So, to summarise we should all be buying our fuel from suppliers who do not enforce the 60/40 percentage as it is OUR responsibility and right to declare the percentage split (if at all)

Edited June 7, 2010 by CV32

[Bobbybass]

We only move for a few hours every 3 / 4 /5 days. We use less than 30% propulsion and 70% generating etc...and that is without some usage of Eberspacher.As required, we keep very full records and were 'miffed' to be forced to sign a 60/ 40 declaration....almost under threat.

I submitted my records to HMRC and received a refund cheque and a letter saying that...as had been forced to make a false statement by the seller, they woujld be investigated.

Bob

[Naughty Cal]

I understand that the 60/40 was arrived at after questioning many boaters including a large number of marine types (think Phylis etc.) . These will obviously use a much higher percentage for propulsion than narrowboaters who use a significant part of their fuel for electricity generation and heating hot water, even if they do not have diesel heating.

You may like to bear this in mind when making your declaration.

 

As you say, we do quite well out of the 60/40 split so dont argue about it when we fill up at waterside outlets.

[cotswoldsman]

We only move for a few hours every 3 / 4 /5 days. We use less than 30% propulsion and 70% generating etc...and that is without some usage of Eberspacher.As required, we keep very full records and were 'miffed' to be forced to sign a 60/ 40 declaration....almost under threat.

I submitted my records to HMRC and received a refund cheque and a letter saying that...as had been forced to make a false statement by the seller, they woujld be investigated.

Bob

 

That is very interesting I hope you will keep us updated. I guess if they have given you a rebate they will be looking to the sellers to recover the monies.

[Proper Job]

We only move for a few hours every 3 / 4 /5 days. We use less than 30% propulsion and 70% generating etc...and that is without some usage of Eberspacher.As required, we keep very full records and were 'miffed' to be forced to sign a 60/ 40 declaration....almost under threat.

I submitted my records to HMRC and received a refund cheque and a letter saying that...as had been forced to make a false statement by the seller, they woujld be investigated.

Bob

I have heard that there are some boat yards that display the price per litre based on a 60/40 split. When questioned they advise that this saves them 'admin time'. You buy it at that rate as that's all they are prepared to sell it at. If you don't like it, go some where else to buy your fuel!

[J R]

hi there all

Now I keep seeing on alot of threads people going on about 60/40 on diesel what are they on about?? can you tell i still not got a boat, i just keep on learning.

 

The difinitive answer can be found in the HMRC reference notice 554. There is no such thing as a mandatory 60/40 split. Any boatyard who insists on this is breaking the law, as noted by an earlier poster who received a refund from the taxman.

[WJM]

Isn't using the alternator attached to a marine propulsion engine a horribly inefficient way to generate electricity? Are people really suggesting that percentages like 60% of their diesel is being used to make electricity? If you really are then you need to consider a better way - whether your motivation is saving money or the planet!

[nb Innisfree]

Isn't using the alternator attached to a marine propulsion engine a horribly inefficient way to generate electricity? Are people really suggesting that percentages like 60% of their diesel is being used to make electricity? If you really are then you need to consider a better way - whether your motivation is saving money or the planet!

 

Not 60% but about 80%+ in our case, if you can suggest a more efficient way then myself and thousands others can't wait to hear it.

[Grace and Favour]

Not 60% but about 80%+ in our case, if you can suggest a more efficient way then myself and thousands others can't wait to hear it.

At this juncture there'll be a number of suggestions regarding Solar panels, windmills, steam turbines and possibly a perpetual motion engine

[WotEver]

That is very interesting I hope you will keep us updated. I guess if they have given you a rebate they will be looking to the sellers to recover the monies.

No, because all they have done is refunded a sum of money incorrectly charged. The seller of the fuel collected the tax and gave it to HMRC. HMRC then gave a portion of it back to the purchaser.

 

For sure HMRC will 'have a word' with the seller for his 'over zealous' collection of taxes on their behalf.

 

Tony

[WJM]

"if you can suggest a more efficient way then myself and thousands others can't wait to hear it"

 

Using a 40hp 1500cc four cylinder diesel engine (my example) to drive a pair of tiny alternators is not efficient. I think a small 'suitcase' petrol generator would do an infinitely more efficient job. Even comparing like for like, a dedicated diesel generator will achieve significantly better efficiency when turning diesel into electricity than a bolt-on attached to a propulsion engine.

 

And the die-hard traditionalist even have so much unused energy in their generating set-up that they can afford to stir the canal with a propellor while they generate.

 

I think a modern diesel engine achieves about 20% efficiency, that is, 20% of the stored energy (diesel) going in comes out as usable energy (motion, propulsion). I will bet electricity generation using a marine propulsion engine will not even get out of single figure efficiency!

[Theo]

"if you can suggest a more efficient way then myself and thousands others can't wait to hear it"

 

Using a 40hp 1500cc four cylinder diesel engine (my example) to drive a pair of tiny alternators is not efficient. I think a small 'suitcase' petrol generator would do an infinitely more efficient job. Even comparing like for like, a dedicated diesel generator will achieve significantly better efficiency when turning diesel into electricity than a bolt-on attached to a propulsion engine.

 

And the die-hard traditionalist even have so much unused energy in their generating set-up that they can afford to stir the canal with a propellor while they generate.

 

I think a modern diesel engine achieves about 20% efficiency, that is, 20% of the stored energy (diesel) going in comes out as usable energy (motion, propulsion). I will bet electricity generation using a marine propulsion engine will not even get out of single figure efficiency!

 

I imagine that you are not saying that it is inefficient to use the alternators on your engine to generate electrical energy as you cruise. What you are saying, I hope, is that it is inefficient to use the big engine running while you are moored up, just to charge the batteries.

 

Nick

[WJM]

Yes, if you really are using 60% of your diesel simply and only to generate electricity while static by using a propulsion engine then you really need to give it some thought. A dedicated generator would be significantly more efficient.

[nb Innisfree]

Yes, if you really are using 60% of your diesel simply and only to generate electricity while static by using a propulsion engine then you really need to give it some thought. A dedicated generator would be significantly more efficient.

 

We have a digital 'suitcase' genny and use it about once a week to equalise our batteries and have also tried it to replace a normal main engine recharge, it used the same amount of petrol as diesel on the main engine! Though it uses 0.9 litres an hour at rated output (1.6 kva or 44amps @24v charging) against about 1 litre for the main engine (100amps @ 24v) it has to run much longer (and 3 times as fast, not relevant to fuel efficiency but more annoying) I think it's a myth that a dedicated genny is more efficient than a main engine and alternator, they are both very inefficient that's the reality and we are stuck with it until either solar generation becomes more efficient and compact or some other technology is developed or discovered.

 

What you are missing is the fact that we use a large proportion of our diesel for recharging because we spend more time moored up than cruising. If we spent many hours cruising daily then that percentage of charging would drop drastically. If we never cruised we would be using 100% for recharging.

Edited June 9, 2010 by nb Innisfree

[MikeV]

I think a modern diesel engine achieves about 20% efficiency, that is, 20% of the stored energy (diesel) going in comes out as usable energy (motion, propulsion).

In that case I'll be claiming a 20/80 split before I even consider the extra few percentage points for electricity generation and separate diesel heating! 17/83 perhaps?

[Theo]

In that case I'll be claiming a 20/80 split before I even consider the extra few percentage points for electricity generation and separate diesel heating! 17/83 perhaps?

 

It's much less efficient than that. Look at the energy transfers:

 

Boat moored therefore zero KE

Boat accelerates to 3mph = 1.34m/s. Assume that the boat has a mass of about 15 tonnes = 15,000kg so the KE gained is 13,467Joules

Boat arrives at mooring so back to zero KE

 

So all the energy of the diesel has been transferred from chemical --> KE + loads of waste heat in cooling it + loads of waste heat stirring up the canal with the propellor. Then when the boat stops again the KE is transferred back as heat from the friction of the rope around the bollard as I strap it to a halt.

 

Ergo none of the energy in the diesel ends up as KE so the efficiency is zero so we can all claim 0% propulsion.

 

Edited June 9, 2010 by Theo

[Guest]

"if you can suggest a more efficient way then myself and thousands others can't wait to hear it"

 

Using a 40hp 1500cc four cylinder diesel engine (my example) to drive a pair of tiny alternators is not efficient. I think a small 'suitcase' petrol generator would do an infinitely more efficient job. Even comparing like for like, a dedicated diesel generator will achieve significantly better efficiency when turning diesel into electricity than a bolt-on attached to a propulsion engine.

 

And the die-hard traditionalist even have so much unused energy in their generating set-up that they can afford to stir the canal with a propellor while they generate.

 

I think a modern diesel engine achieves about 20% efficiency, that is, 20% of the stored energy (diesel) going in comes out as usable energy (motion, propulsion). I will bet electricity generation using a marine propulsion engine will not even get out of single figure efficiency!

You forget that most of us use the propulsion engine as a CHP system. On my boat much of the waste heat is utilised in the heating of the living area and the heating of domestic water. The battery charging is just part of the picture. I hate running the engine in neutral though :-(