GUCC blue/blue livery

[NB Alnwick]

A neighbour at Cropredy is trying to research the correct colours for the dark and light blue colours used by the GUCC - any ideas?

[PaddingtonBear]

Phil is the standard and only answer. He is only a phone call away.

[ditchcrawler]

Phil is the standard and only answer. He is only a phone call away.

Our boat is painted with Phils paint and is said to be the correct shades of blue.

We are through Cropredy in the morning.

[Phil Speight]

A neighbour at Cropredy is trying to research the correct colours for the dark and light blue colours used by the GUCC - any ideas?

The darker blue is , I think, at the very least extremely close to our Union Blue ( hence the name ) - it has not been possible to get an absolutely certain match . We have a formulation for the lighter blue which I know to be accurate. We call it Grand Union Pale Blue because I couldn`t think of a more original title ! It`s not one I`m prepared to allow out for matching purposes before anyone asks !

Phil

[Laurence Hogg]

During the 1970's/80's I ran "Inland Waterways Models" which built scale models for museums and private collections. Research was extensive and one area which was recorded was the original paint colours used, these were found during renovations etc of original craft and were carefully matched to Pantone colours. this reference sheet got lost some years ago but has turned up in a search through old documents.

 

Grand Union CCCo two tone blue = 301A & 298A

Grand Union CCCo red. white & blue = 185A , white & 293A

these were obtained from "Neptune", "Bilster" and "Hampstead"

 

also and may be of interest

 

FMC green, yellow , red = 348A, 137c & 032A

 

Willow Wren CTS red, lt yellow, green + 185A, 116A & 370A

 

Central Eectric Authority joey cabin, green, yellow & red= 376A,114A & 172A

 

British Waterways blue & yellow fleet = 285A & 116A

British Waterways maintenance fleet = 294A & 116A

 

"Common blue" used on lining planks by Keays and other yards = 542 A

 

Samuel Barlow Braunston green = 341A

 

I must stress that these were matched from samples found on original boats, they were recorded after dampening with turps to reveal the true colour often after sanding down a surface. They were matched to a Letraset Pantone colour sheet.

 

By the way, if anyone believes the greeny - blue livery shown in narrowboat, forget it! It was derived from a retouched black and white photos in a National Geographic magazine!

Edited August 1, 2009 by Laurence Hogg

[Graham_Robinson]

[quote

By the way, if anyone believes the greeny - blue livery shown in narrowboat, forget it! It was derived from a retouched black and white photos in a National Geographic magazine!

A case of artistic license then? :lol:

That'll save John a few quid! Think he was prepared to repaint Buckden a shade of green if it could be substantiated that she did indeed carry this livery at some time.

Edited August 1, 2009 by sparky2

[AMModels]

During the 1970's/80's I ran "Inland Waterways Models" which built scale models for museums and private collections. Research was extensive and one area which was recorded was the original paint colours used, these were found during renovations etc of original craft and were carefully matched to Pantone colours. this reference sheet got lost some years ago but has turned up in a search through old documents.

 

Grand Union CCCo two tone blue = 301A & 298A

Grand Union CCCo red. white & blue = 185A , white & 293A

these were obtained from "Neptune", "Bilster" and "Hampstead"

 

also and may be of interest

 

FMC green, yellow , red = 348A, 137c & 032A

 

Willow Wren CTS red, lt yellow, green + 185A, 116A & 370A

 

Central Eectric Authority joey cabin, green, yellow & red= 376A,114A & 172A

 

British Waterways blue & yellow fleet = 285A & 116A

British Waterways maintenance fleet = 294A & 116A

 

"Common blue" used on lining planks by Keays and other yards = 542 A

 

Samuel Barlow Braunston green = 341A

 

I must stress that these were matched from samples found on original boats, they were recorded after dampening with turps to reveal the true colour often after sanding down a surface. They were matched to a Letraset Pantone colour sheet.

 

By the way, if anyone believes the greeny - blue livery shown in narrowboat, forget it! It was derived from a retouched black and white photos in a National Geographic magazine!

 

I was under the impression the green scheme had been disproven years ago, it was never mentioned in any of the documents at the time and as Laurence points out came from one retouched source. I was more than a little surprised to see it listed in Narrowboat last edition.

[pete harrison]

By the way, if anyone believes the greeny - blue livery shown in narrowboat, forget it! It was derived from a retouched black and white photos in a National Geographic magazine!

 

I had a preview of the liveries produced by Christopher M. Jones about two months prior to publication. I expressed my concerns to Chris about both the two tone green livery and the inverted red, white and blue livery, neither of which can be proven. The latter was purely based on greyscale tones and can be dismissed quite easily but there seems to be some evidence that Harland & Wolff Ltd. may have turned out some green boats (per Chris). I felt it would be misleading to publish both of these liveries, and personally I dread the day when somebody actually paints their boat two tone green !

 

What I do like in this article, and very much approve of is the seperation of the 20 Bucklersbury address and the red, white and blue livery. This is something that I have been fighting for years and slight colour tones apart Chris has these spot on (i.e. 20 Bucklersbury only belongs on the two tone blue livery and definately not on the red, white and blue). This mistake has been reproduced by enthusiasts, credible boat painters and museums for years but now there are a handful of boats carrying the correct Port of London Building / red, white and blue version (BATTERSEA / DOVER / ACTIS / REGULUS / RIGAL).

 

I deal with an enthusiast / researcher who can remember the G.U.C.C.Co. Ltd. boats in trade and he continually claims that the lighter blue of the two tone blue livery should be turquoise, and a shade similar to that used by Barclays Bank during the 1970's !

[Paul H]

I am told the "light blue" used on Regulus (usually to be found at Ellesmere Port) is correct and certainly veers towards Barclay's turquoise. It was a colour apparantly mixed by Phil Speight from original fragments found inside one of the boat's "letterbox" vents.

 

I too share your scepticism with the green livery. I have a copy of the 1941 National Geographic magazine and these are clearly black and white photos which have been coloured in by hand to look pretty rather than authentic. Whilst GUCCC's predecessor Associated Canal Carriers may have used a green livery and this may have been originalkly specified to Harland and Wolff, if it was ever used at all then this is unilkely to have been continued on the town class Buckden when the blue livery had been already well established on the "stars."

 

And thanks Laurence for once again highlighting that a lot of BW maintenance boats were painted in a darker blue than the carrying fleet. That's certainly my memory and Capricorn will be altered to suit at its next repaint.

 

Paul H

[furnessvale]

I am told the "light blue" used on Regulus (usually to be found at Ellesmere Port) is correct and certainly veers towards Barclay's turquoise. It was a colour apparantly mixed by Phil Speight from original fragments found inside one of the boat's "letterbox" vents.

 

I too share your scepticism with the green livery. I have a copy of the 1941 National Geographic magazine and these are clearly black and white photos which have been coloured in by hand to look pretty rather than authentic. Whilst GUCCC's predecessor Associated Canal Carriers may have used a green livery and this may have been originalkly specified to Harland and Wolff, if it was ever used at all then this is unilkely to have been continued on the town class Buckden when the blue livery had been already well established on the "stars."

 

And thanks Laurence for once again highlighting that a lot of BW maintenance boats were painted in a darker blue than the carrying fleet. That's certainly my memory and Capricorn will be altered to suit at its next repaint.

 

Paul H

 

I too do not subscribe to the turquoise/green colour theory. The trouble with the letterbox was the amount of heat passing through it, especially the one over the stove. Over years this could alter the colour.

 

When repainting ALTON on one occasion, I accidentally flashed over the light blue for a split second with my propane torch. The paint immediately turned turquoise!

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[FadeToScarlet]

The darker blue is , I think, at the very least extremely close to our Union Blue ( hence the name ) - it has not been possible to get an absolutely certain match . We have a formulation for the lighter blue which I know to be accurate. We call it Grand Union Pale Blue because I couldn`t think of a more original title ! It`s not one I`m prepared to allow out for matching purposes before anyone asks !

Phil

 

Aha! Perfect. Looks like we'll get those two shades, then.

[Laurence Hogg]

I had a preview of the liveries produced by Christopher M. Jones about two months prior to publication. I expressed my concerns to Chris about both the two tone green livery and the inverted red, white and blue livery, neither of which can be proven. The latter was purely based on greyscale tones and can be dismissed quite easily but there seems to be some evidence that Harland & Wolff Ltd. may have turned out some green boats (per Chris). I felt it would be misleading to publish both of these liveries, and personally I dread the day when somebody actually paints their boat two tone green !

 

What I do like in this article, and very much approve of is the seperation of the 20 Bucklersbury address and the red, white and blue livery. This is something that I have been fighting for years and slight colour tones apart Chris has these spot on (i.e. 20 Bucklersbury only belongs on the two tone blue livery and definately not on the red, white and blue). This mistake has been reproduced by enthusiasts, credible boat painters and museums for years but now there are a handful of boats carrying the correct Port of London Building / red, white and blue version (BATTERSEA / DOVER / ACTIS / REGULUS / RIGAL).

 

I deal with an enthusiast / researcher who can remember the G.U.C.C.Co. Ltd. boats in trade and he continually claims that the lighter blue of the two tone blue livery should be turquoise, and a shade similar to that used by Barclays Bank during the 1970's !

 

When we have paint samples that have been matched, why are we wondering about someones memory,

1, paint fades,

2 could you match a colour from memory of 70 odd years ago?

Fact is the best authority to run with.

[Pluto]

When we have paint samples that have been matched, why are we wondering about someones memory,

1, paint fades,

2 could you match a colour from memory of 70 odd years ago?

Fact is the best authority to run with.

When I painted my old boat in the Canal Transport Ltd livery of black and white, I had several old boatmen comment that it wasn't correct. Yet black and white was well-known as that company's colours. The reason they did not look right on my boat was that I had used modern gloss paint. Originally, the paint would have been lead based and then varnished. The result would have been a creamy white, which depended upon the amount of varnish used. The question is, what is the correct colour scheme; black and white or creamy white and black? The same can be said for replicating any so-called original colour scheme; should it be what was specified, or what was achieved.

[pete harrison]

When we have paint samples that have been matched, why are we wondering about someones memory,

1, paint fades,

2 could you match a colour from memory of 70 odd years ago?

Fact is the best authority to run with.

 

I deal with facts not fiction, I do not make things up, alter / remove documents or fill in gaps. Somebody asked a question and I tried to answer it using a combination of facts and the opinion of the man who advises every credible narrow boat researcher (including Alan H. Faulkner, Christopher M. Jones and several other contributers to this forum), started the (Historic) Narrow Boat Owners Club archive and who's personal archive leaves everybody else's in the shade.

 

I did state that "he continually claims" so leaving it down to the individual on how to interpret this, but as Harry Arnold said at a meeting a few years ago this man "does have an irritating habit of always being right !"

Edited August 6, 2009 by pete harrison

[madcat]

I reckon the turquiose "bathroom blue" as matched by Phil to be right.Its a very "thirties" colour .

Halsall appears in various shades of green depending of what Ive got to hand but Im not intending to replicate any historic period exept maybe the 1970's.

[Phil Speight]

I too do not subscribe to the turquoise/green colour theory. The trouble with the letterbox was the amount of heat passing through it, especially the one over the stove. Over years this could alter the colour.

 

When repainting ALTON on one occasion, I accidentally flashed over the light blue for a split second with my propane torch. The paint immediately turned turquoise!

 

George ex nb Alton retired

Quite so - however the sample we had was processed by the labs. at ICI ( friends of friends etc - and no thanks to me ) and the colour they came back with can be taken as accurate . It is by no means turquoise - just a pale blue with a hint of green , a vey subtle colour that works really well in context as long as the red bits are present and correct. The original scheme was no accident - it was very deliberate and designed with great suffistication ( if that`s how you spell it......Ah! SOPHISTICATION ! - touch of brain fade there). What Pete Harrison doesn`t know or hasn`t got written down in his private and incredibly well researched archive of G.U. boats is barely worth knowing incidentally.

Phil

Edited August 11, 2009 by Phil Speight

[pete harrison]

What Pete Harrison doesn`t know or hasn`t got written down in his private and incredibly well researched archive of G.U. boats is barely worth knowing incidentally.

Phil

 

Praise indeed, thank you (does this mean we have not fallen out after all !)

[Phil Speight]

Praise indeed, thank you (does this mean we have not fallen out after all !)

Que ? Didn`t know we HAD fallen out ! If we had it must have been entirely by accident as far as I`m concerned. Probably something to do with old age and infirmity.

Phil

[Phil Speight]

Quite so - however the sample we had was processed by the labs. at ICI ( friends of friends etc - and no thanks to me ) and the colour they came back with can be taken as accurate . It is by no means turquoise - just a pale blue with a hint of green , a vey subtle colour that works really well in context as long as the red bits are present and correct. The original scheme was no accident - it was very deliberate and designed with great suffistication ( if that`s how you spell it......Ah! SOPHISTICATION ! - touch of brain fade there). What Pete Harrison doesn`t know or hasn`t got written down in his private and incredibly well researched archive of G.U. boats is barely worth knowing incidentally.

Phil

I think I should have made very clear in the above contribution that my acceptance of a "pale blue with just a hint of green" does not in any way mean that I agree with the two greens colour scheme. I don`t - not in the least. Our pale blue match , when set against the darker blue, white,raddle, and red of the scheme in question is still very obviously blue. Apart from the well known hand coloured picture in National Geographic I`ve never found any evidence to support the two greens scheme. I have details nowadays of all the schemes theoritically used by GUCCCO which certainly isn`t bullet proof - but two greens don`t get a mention!

Phil

[Derek R.]

I had a preview of the liveries produced by Christopher M. Jones about two months prior to publication. I expressed my concerns to Chris about both the two tone green livery and the inverted red, white and blue livery, neither of which can be proven. The latter was purely based on greyscale tones and can be dismissed quite easily but there seems to be some evidence that Harland & Wolff Ltd. may have turned out some green boats (per Chris). I felt it would be misleading to publish both of these liveries, and personally I dread the day when somebody actually paints their boat two tone green !

 

(Snip)

 

Were Associated Canal Carriers ever two tone green as shown on 'Prince' - the the last image in Paylers splendid collection? (You will have to scroll all the way down).

 

Derek

[mykaskin]

Were Associated Canal Carriers ever two tone green as shown on 'Prince' - the the last image in Paylers splendid collection? (You will have to scroll all the way down).

 

Derek

 

While I'm not speaking from any real expertise, the pictures I've seen (especially of Victoria) seem show a scrumbled/varnished? surround, and a dark colour (green I assume) background to the panels. Even though EPT shows a lighter green to the border on his Colours of the Cut picture of Victoria.

 

Mike

[pete harrison]

Que ? Didn`t know we HAD fallen out ! If we had it must have been entirely by accident as far as I`m concerned. Probably something to do with old age and infirmity.

Phil

 

Well I certainly agree, I am getting old and infirm !

[Mike C]

Were Associated Canal Carriers ever two tone green as shown on 'Prince' - the the last image in Paylers splendid collection? (You will have to scroll all the way down).

 

Derek

 

The link takes you to a collection of lovely pics - but several errors - one as below

 

"Motor Kenilworth, a large Northwich boat built in 1936 at Woolwich, pictured at Blisworth............"

A riveting oxymoron.

[David Schweizer]

Below is a recently taken photo of Marcellus which was painted by John Sanderson and signwritten by Dave Moore. The owner and Dave are both members of this forum so maybe a PM to one of them will produce an answer.

 

Edited June 3, 2012 by David Schweizer

[dave moore]

Hi David

 

Sorry, but Marcellus isn't one of mine. Te last GUCCC livery I did was Stanton, just over 2 years ago at Heyford Fields Marina. If John painted it, then Phil and/or Meg would probably have written it.

 

Reproducing historic liveries can be a bit of a minefield. Signwriting is an individual craft, which is what makes my work different from, say, Phil's or other writers and I'm minded that any livery painted onto boats in working days were subject in part to indiviidual eccentricities of a particular writer. When asked for an historic livery ( I'm doing Crane in the earlier FMC livery soon) I'll paint the lettering in the same stle as the originals but with a hint of my own personal take,any other way loses the flow and dash that makes for good lettering.

 

Cheers

 

Dave