Fuel prices

[alan_fincher]

The difference is you are using your boat on a publicly owned and maintained transport network.

Correction....

 

The difference is you are using your boat on a publicly owned and maintained transport network.

Edited December 15, 2008 by alan_fincher

[carlt]

Correction....

 

The difference is you are using your boat on a publicly owned and maintained transport network.

I did, initially, put the maintained bit in inverted commas.

Edited December 15, 2008 by carlt

[furnessvale]

The difference is you are using your boat on a publicly owned and maintained transport network.

 

Now I understand why only boaters pay for the canals at point of use. Just like on the roads where the motorist pays and everyone else freeloads!

 

George ex nb Alton retired

 

 

The difference is you are using your boat on a publicly owned and maintained transport network.

 

Further to my previous posting, I doubt our coastal brethren will see it that way.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[carlt]

Further to my previous posting, I doubt our coastal brethren will see it that way.

 

George ex nb Alton retired

I am our coastal brethren:

[Justme]

I would not be so confident. HMRC have a dedicated team of people who monitor the use of red diesel by farmers to ensure it is not used on the public highway (beyond the 2 mile permitted area) It would not take much effort for them to redirect some of those people to monitor usage on boats.

 

Tractors are not limited to any mileage. Only Standard vehicles (IE a car) that have been declaired as only being used for farming use are limited to the 1.5 kilometers (just over 1 mile). They also then dont need MOT & get free road fund licence. This is why you often see old run down cars & pickups on the road near farms. Tractors can travel unlimited miles on road if its for agriculural use only & not haulage. Contractors use red & travel long distances.

 

 

 

Justme

[furnessvale]

I am our coastal brethren:

 

Now I am jealous. I also see from your profile you are a Bedford man, CA. Me too but I have a TA3 Scammell coupling tractor unit. Got to have something in retirement:-)

 

George ex nb Alton retired

[David Schweizer]

Now I am jealous. I also see from your profile you are a Bedford man, CA. Me too but I have a TA3 Scammell coupling tractor unit. Got to have something in retirement:-)

 

George ex nb Alton retired

In owned a Bedford CA Mini Bus for about five years, It did sterling service transporting many groups of Young People from London to North Wales on Outdoor education weekends. I eventually sold it for more than I paid for it.

[RobinR]

Probably the calculation was based on a mix of inland and coastal marinas. I expect coastal craft both use more fuel per hour of use and the sum total of off shore boating is the higher by a significant amount. I have no idea of the actual figures but should costal leisure use account for 90% of fuel on a 90/10 split maybe we need to better estimate the figures for inland - canal specific - use. Have any such statistics been published / proposed?

... and I hadn't even seen / read (I was going to type "red" but it is just too corny!) the comments by Rex Walden on page 102 of the January 2009 Waterways World - guess I'm in good company! He suggests 40% propulsion - 60% non propulsion to be more appropriate.

[ditchcrawler]

As I see it, I am just buying from a different ( and cheaper) supplier and still handing over the duty that is due - it's just that the supplier is asking less for the diesel... HMC and E are getting their duty, the only difference is a different shopkeeper is selling it to me

 

Nick

Surly who ever you are buying it off should charge you the appropriate duty regardless of how much per lt it is.

[david and julie]

I think the point is, if you have a LR which never goes on the road then you can run it on red diesel, just as you could any other agricultural vehicle. However, what you can't do is run it on red on the farm, then go on the road and run it on white, then switch back etc. Mainly because you wouldn't be able to get rid of the trace of red whilst on the road.

Interesting point this, I've just been reading the HMRC link (I know , but it is xmas and I'm fed up ) Multi use lorries(my term)which have one role most of the year and are converted for winter duties (some snowploughs and gritters say) must use white in their primary role but can use red in the secondary. (not exactly how HMRC word it) They say,

Many of these vehicles are converted HGVs that are used as gritters in the winter months. If the gritting equipment is fitted in a workshop and is attached for the duration of the winter the vehicle is deemed to meet the requirements of the law despite the fact that the legislation states that it should be used ‘solely’ for gritting.

I assume the revenue never dip council vehicles as some of them would obviously have "pink" in their tanks.

[Nickhlx]

Surly who ever you are buying it off should charge you the appropriate duty regardless of how much per lt it is.

 

 

I imagine that if it was ordered for home delivery you should disclose the use to which it was being put and request an invoice for the fuel and appropriate rate of duty - It has been decreed that there will now be 43p a litre duty on red diesel intended for propulsion and the responsibility of the user to ensure it is paid else he will be liable.

I am quite happy to do that which would end up in propulsion red diesel costing around ? 45+43 = 88p/litre at today's rates, if that is more than about 5p less than canalside diesel, as I ( call me a cynic) believe that it would be fresher and closer to the intended spec.

 

However, if white diesel is ( now) around 97p/litre I would prefer to use that for propulsion as I believe it is a better ( cleaner and more rigourously regulated / controlled) fuel than red, which just maybe on the odd occasion have a tiny bit of condensation / old engine oil / diesel bug remnants lurking in it from tanks that get topped up far less frequently than do major roadside filling stations.

 

And as for heating - to me, kerosene at ? 40p/litre is much better than using red, being cleaner burning / fresher / less "polluted" etc and no doubt still at least 15p / litre less than canalside offerings, and possibly up to 40p/litre less, which on a 200 litre tank, adds up to quite a bit.

 

Nick

[ditchcrawler]

I imagine that if it was ordered for home delivery you should disclose the use to which it was being put and request an invoice for the fuel and appropriate rate of duty - It has been decreed that there will now be 43p a litre duty on red diesel intended for propulsion and the responsibility of the user to ensure it is paid else he will be liable.

I am quite happy to do that which would end up in propulsion red diesel costing around ? 45+43 = 88p/litre at today's rates, if that is more than about 5p less than canalside diesel, as I ( call me a cynic) believe that it would be fresher and closer to the intended spec.

 

However, if white diesel is ( now) around 97p/litre I would prefer to use that for propulsion as I believe it is a better ( cleaner and more rigourously regulated / controlled) fuel than red, which just maybe on the odd occasion have a tiny bit of condensation / old engine oil / diesel bug remnants lurking in it from tanks that get topped up far less frequently than do major roadside filling stations.

 

And as for heating - to me, kerosene at ? 40p/litre is much better than using red, being cleaner burning / fresher / less "polluted" etc and no doubt still at least 15p / litre less than canalside offerings, and possibly up to 40p/litre less, which on a 200 litre tank, adds up to quite a bit.

 

Nick

I agree with all you say but you also have to factor in transport, I would need to tow a trailer to take the heating oil and the white to the boat and then decant it from the drum to the boat , in my case across the towing path. It would probably pay me to fit a second tank for heating, financially. But I don't think I want the hassle

[chris w]

I imagine that if it was ordered for home delivery you should disclose the use to which it was being put and request an invoice for the fuel and appropriate rate of duty - It has been decreed that there will now be 43p a litre duty on red diesel intended for propulsion and the responsibility of the user to ensure it is paid else he will be liable.

I am quite happy to do that which would end up in propulsion red diesel costing around ? 45+43 = 88p/litre at today's rates, if that is more than about 5p less than canalside diesel, as I ( call me a cynic) believe that it would be fresher and closer to the intended spec.

 

However, if white diesel is ( now) around 97p/litre I would prefer to use that for propulsion as I believe it is a better ( cleaner and more rigourously regulated / controlled) fuel than red, which just maybe on the odd occasion have a tiny bit of condensation / old engine oil / diesel bug remnants lurking in it from tanks that get topped up far less frequently than do major roadside filling stations.

 

And as for heating - to me, kerosene at ? 40p/litre is much better than using red, being cleaner burning / fresher / less "polluted" etc and no doubt still at least 15p / litre less than canalside offerings, and possibly up to 40p/litre less, which on a 200 litre tank, adds up to quite a bit.

 

Nick

My Isuzu engine manual specifically warns AGAINST using kerosene owing to "its very low cetane rating which will adversely affect the engine".

 

Chris

Edited December 26, 2008 by chris w

[ditchcrawler]

My Isuzu engine manual specifically warns AGAINST using kerosene "due to its very low cetane rating which will adversely affect the engine".

 

Chris

I think he was using the kero for heating not in his engine, but I may be wrong

[chris w]

I think he was using the kero for heating not in his engine, but I may be wrong

Ah......... I'm not functioning at 100% owing to the Xmas alcoholic fog.

[Nickhlx]

Ah......... I'm not functioning at 100% owing to the Xmas alcoholic fog.

 

Indeed - I have two tanks - one for engine / webasto , and one for Diesel stove / webasto - pipes and valves link front to rear of boat and loops can be organised so that the webasto can run from either tank - normally the front ( kerosene ) tank.

 

I would never consider running the engine on kerosene as not only is there the Cetane issue but, crucially, kerosene has minimal lubricatiing qualities for the injector pump which would die in minutes / hours

 

Nick

[Weyman]

Have just filled up at the local marina - Pyrford - they only sell red diesel at the 60/40 split and it cost 103ppl, white diesel at local Tescos is 94.9ppl.

 

Andy

[denboy]

Have just filled up at the local marina - Pyrford - they only sell red diesel at the 60/40 split and it cost 103ppl, white diesel at local Tescos is 94.9ppl.

 

Andy

Robbery texaco refinery last week 60 ppl

[Nightwatch]

Can they do that Weyman?

On another thread there was a lot of discussion concerning this.

 

Martyn

[Nickhlx]

Have just filled up at the local marina - Pyrford - they only sell red diesel at the 60/40 split and it cost 103ppl, white diesel at local Tescos is 94.9ppl.

 

Andy

 

 

Andy - exactly my point - they charge a price that is determined by what the market will stand for the convenience factor.

The liveaboards will be resistant / reluctant to go elsewhere as they inherently won't have regular trips on a road with a vehicle. We are " occasional visitors" to our boat in comparison - day trips / long weekends etc so taking one or two jerry cans per trip to replenish is no problem. Also living at home I can have red delivered into my tank with the duty duly paid at around 85p litre ( currently ) and to me the hassle factor is worth only a few pence per litre. I use Kerosene at around 40p/litre for space heating and hot water from the domestic bulk tank.

 

At todays prices I would buy white at ? 95p/litre on the way to the boat as red (inc duty) is only approx 10p/litre less but also means more hassle (storage and transferring into cans at home) - so white for me at the moment for the engine, and it's a bit of exercise to help keep me fit - I have the cans / transfer pump already so no initial outlay there.

 

Nick

[Weyman]

Can they do that Weyman?

On another thread there was a lot of discussion concerning this.

 

Martyn

 

Martyn

 

They can sell at any price they choose, as a purchaser you can either buy or not. The alternative would be a 5hr, 6 lock round trip to Shepperton Marina where they accept declarations other than the 60/40 split, or lugging jerry cans to and from Tescos. Needless to say once word gets around most boaters will arrange to fill up at the more flexible marinas and the inflexible ones will start to lose out.

 

Andy

[Nightwatch]

Hello

They can sell at any price agreed. However they are collecting tax and if you don't use the split at which they are selling someone is evading tax payments.

 

My opinion.

 

Martyn

[Hyperion 53]

Norbury Wharf Limited 50.9 ppl today (for heating/generation!!)

 

Regards,

 

David Ray

[mikevye]

In a former life of self employment I adopted this philosophy, the tax man will wait for you to make a mistake and the VAT man will come looking for it! Ignore these words at your peril because if you can't prove your ratio split he will charge you 60/40 retrospectively and there will be nothing you can do about it! I would suggest to anyone who is not using the guidline split to keep a detailed log of engine hours against distance travelled because when they get on your case they make the gestapo look like choir boys.

[WJM]

Quick update - my regular diesel supplier, who was insistent on a 60/40 split has now adopted a 'Declare what you want' approach. I went for a 30/70 split this time and he wasn't bothered. I am surmising that this softening from his previous hard line comes from word in the trade and feedback from HMRC themselves that it can work this way.

 

It is madness, but it is our madness so we must love it!