Gardner 4LW difficult to start

[Proper Job]

............. I'll just go an unbolt my FR2 and drop it quietly over the side in a remote lode.

 

MP.

Don't do that MP

 

I know a bloke who's looking for some 'mud weights' for his fishing punt

 

I'm sure he'd swap it for one of those super smooth high revving, multi cylinder oriental mud weights

[MoominPapa]

I know a bloke who's looking for some 'mud weights' for his fishing punt

Ooh, does his fishing punt have gun too?

 

I'm sure he'd swap it for one of those super smooth high revving, multi cylinder oriental mud weights

I'm sure he would, them things may be OK for a punt, but they're not heavy enough to hold a narrowboat. You need a proper Lister mud weight to do that

 

MP.

[towbarman]

I have a 2LW in my boat. I've not had it too long so I'm still getting to know it. But I have noticed that, while it starts happily and fairly quickly in warm weather, it is much more difficult on colder weather - to the extent that it flattened the starter battery and burned out the starter motor last winter - not cheap!

Enter local all-purpose practical gnome who has a look, grunts a few times, then takes the top off the air filter and directs a blowlamp down the 'ole for five minutes. Result: engine growls a bit then turns over and starts. (Subsidiary result, couple of free pints for gnome).

The difficulty is, I think, caused or at least exacerbated by the Gardner being to old a design to have pre-heaters. This autumn I'm making sure that I run the engine evry few days until it's really warm (about 2 hours); that way, even if we're not taking the boat out, the engine never gets profoundly cold. It's worked so far!

Coda: Gnome's further wisdom: if you've got a can of Quickstart or similar, throw it away.

HI SOUNDS LIKE COLD STARTING PROBLEM WITH ALL OLD DIESELS EASY TO FIX ONE CAN OF LAUGHING GAS IE EASY START SPRAY DOWN AIR INTAKE AND START DONT USE IT TO MUCH AS ENGINE CAN GET ADDICTED BUT IF YOUR ENGINE STARTS FAST WITH THIS METHOD IT PROVES ITS COLD STARTING PROBLEM IF NOT CHECK COMPRESSION/ FUEL/AND INJECTORS YOU WILL FIND IN WARMER WEATHER IT WILL START ON ITS OWN/ YOU CAN ALSO GET A SINGLE GLOW PLUG KIT FIT IT ON THE MANIFLOLD IT HAS A VALVE AND ITS OWN DEISEL SUPPLY AND 12V CONECTION SWITCH ON PLUG WARMS VALVE OPENS EGNITES DIESEL THEN SHE WILL START FOREVER GOOD MODIFICATION FOR OLD ENGINES

[Athy]

THANKS, whoops, thanks. I have been categorically warned off Easy Start by just about everyone else! When I tried it last winter the engine burst into life for three or four seconds then stopped agian, Repeated applications did not improve matters. Then I was warned off it and have now chucked my can away.

The secret seems to be to have a good starter battery. I have been running the engime for a couple of hours a week during the recent cold weather. On average it takes a minute or so to get it going.

[LEO]

THANKS, whoops, thanks. I have been categorically warned off Easy Start by just about everyone else! When I tried it last winter the engine burst into life for three or four seconds then stopped agian, Repeated applications did not improve matters. Then I was warned off it and have now chucked my can away.

The secret seems to be to have a good starter battery. I have been running the engime for a couple of hours a week during the recent cold weather. On average it takes a minute or so to get it going.

 

Hi,

 

Throwing away your can of 'Easy Start was one of the best things you did!. Pressing the cold fuel button is the best idea this weather. Although these are 'old' engines many have been re-built and are as good as new.

 

Gardners did have a facility for warming air when cold starting - I have seen and filmed this on a 6L2, which was hand started. This device consisted of a small hinged cup which could be filled with meths, lit and then swung into position below the air intake(s). It was not used when I saw the engine hand started in April 2007 and that engine was in a fairly original state.

 

This weather, my 2LW will start with 1 press of the fuel button and then a quick press of the starter button.

 

Easy start is great if you have deep pockets to pay for repairs or some one else will fork out for them, I would be wary of any statements a vendor made about an engine's stating ability if I saw it in an engine bay/room.

 

Leo.

[Athy]

I have just located an entire LW manual on the internet, on a site called something like L. Gardner & Sons: The History and The Legend. It has a section on starting from cold. Priming by means of the levers on the side of the engine appears to have no effect whatsoever on mine, BUT thanks to the very clear labelled diagrams drawn by some long-ago artist, I now know where my excess fuel button is. It seems that this should stay up until the engine starts and then drop down into the closed position automatically. If it does, it will be an improvement on my decompressor (which I had already recognised, as my last engine, a Rigas, had one) which drops down the moment the engine tries to turn, which I'm sure it should not do.

I shall report on progress once I have tried the magic button.

[Chris Pink]

Update time folks;

 

I haven't seen Richard for a while, the nature of navigation being what it is but he tells me that although the injectors were serviced at Walshes , they are still jetting rather than misting and still no sign of starting.

 

Walshes have quoted around £400 to service the fuel pump which seems like the next step. But he is reluctant without some indication that this will help.

 

Opinions please?

[smileypete]

Update time folks;

 

I haven't seen Richard for a while, the nature of navigation being what it is but he tells me that although the injectors were serviced at Walshes , they are still jetting rather than misting and still no sign of starting.

 

Walshes have quoted around £400 to service the fuel pump which seems like the next step. But he is reluctant without some indication that this will help.

 

Opinions please?

 

Is the throttle closed, part open or fully open when the above occurs?

 

Is the engine turning over fast enough?

 

I'd also check the voltage across the starter motor under cranking.

 

cheers,

Pete.

Edited December 5, 2008 by smileypete

[dove]

Update time folks;

 

I haven't seen Richard for a while, the nature of navigation being what it is but he tells me that although the injectors were serviced at Walshes , they are still jetting rather than misting and still no sign of starting.

 

Walshes have quoted around £400 to service the fuel pump which seems like the next step. But he is reluctant without some indication that this will help.

 

Opinions please?

 

My 4LW was a bit slow starting and big knock on No.4. I let Walshes have the pump top and all sprayers, came back right as a bobbin, Steve even loaned me his phasing disc.

 

After that, started first crank and no smoke after 10mins.

 

Andrew

[Chris Pink]

Is the throttle closed, part open or fully open when the above occurs?

 

Is the engine turning over fast enough?

 

I'd also check the voltage across the starter motor under cranking.

 

cheers,

Pete.

 

Throttle fully open. The electrics have been well serviced (my area of expertise) and has definitely improved matters, the engine spins well.

 

 

An Gardner 'engineer' advised the following, which he called 'purging' to get rid of excess fuel which he said stopped the fuel igniting

 

Shut throttle fully, stop lever to stop, decompressor open, crank engine 10 secs. Then rest for 10 secs. repeat 25 times, big rest repeat 25 times.

 

Then standard starting procedure, prime with levers 5 times, full throttle, excess fuel button, blowtorch in air intake.

 

Then it coughs, splutters and nearly goes, starter kept going for 15-20 secs.

 

If the standard starting is repeated then there is no attempt at firing the 2nd time.

 

This procedure used to start the engine when all else failed. But not now.

 

If the standard starting procedure is used alone there is no sign of firing.

 

Steve even loaned me his phasing disc.

 

What did you do with the phasing disc?

Edited December 5, 2008 by Chris Pink

[Phil Speight]

What size and how long are his starter cables? They need to be bigger than for a typical modern nb engine.

 

 

Tim

Just a thought Tim - and I bow to your greater knowledge of things that go bang a lot and spin propellors by the magic of internal combustion - but could an engine as big as a 4LW be suffering from never actually working hard enough . I`m assuming it`s in a narrowboat and I ve oftenmn wondered if such huge beasts aren`t perhaps very much over specified for the job . If they don`t work hard enough performance will deteriorate as I understand it - and starting is where it will show first . I wonder if it smokes .

Cheers

Phil

[Chris Pink]

. I`m assuming it`s in a narrowboat and I ve oftenmn wondered if such huge beasts aren`t perhaps very much over specified for the job . If they don`t work hard enough performance will deteriorate as I understand it - and starting is where it will show first . I wonder if it smokes .

Cheers

Phil

 

Phil, in order; yes, yes, probably not, and yes, although this will clear on a good run when up to temperature. He never runs less than 2 hours for this reason.

[dove]

[quote name='Chris Pink' date='Dec 5 2008, 11:51 AM' post='307110'

 

 

 

What did you do with the phasing disc?

 

Don't know if the LK is the same, but the LW pump has a plate on the front held on with 2 screws and behind that you can see the pump pistons.

on the pistons are scribed lines. I just for get the sequence ( ask Steve Bradley ) but you put the disc between the top and bottom of the pump under one of the pistons, put the pump back together and rotate the engine. two out of the four scribe lines should line up, do this with all four.

 

Don't know how to adjust if wrong, mine were ok

 

Andrew

[Sir Nibble]

Update time folks;

 

I haven't seen Richard for a while, the nature of navigation being what it is but he tells me that although the injectors were serviced at Walshes , they are still jetting rather than misting and still no sign of starting.

 

Walshes have quoted around £400 to service the fuel pump which seems like the next step. But he is reluctant without some indication that this will help.

 

Opinions please?

Serviced or not, that shouldn't happen. If the pump delivers insufficient pressure, the injectors won't "crack". If pressure is adequate they will spray. An injector that squirts a stream of fuel is u/s. There is no way an injector in good condition will do this.

[LEO]

Hi,

 

Note injectors were serviced, try some exchange ones - Gardner enthusiast do reasonably priced ones and they service pumps. They operate a mail order service.

 

Leo.

[Athy]

It's good to know that Gardner Enthusiast are some use. I sent them two e-mails, a couple of days apart, asking them to recommend a Gardner-experienced mechanic in my area. After a week, I got a brief reply "We do not know anyone who can help you". Some bledin' enthusiasts. I shall not bother visiting their web site again!

[Timleech]

What did you do with the phasing disc?

 

Don't know if the LK is the same, but the LW pump has a plate on the front held on with 2 screws and behind that you can see the pump pistons.

on the pistons are scribed lines. I just for get the sequence ( ask Steve Bradley ) but you put the disc between the top and bottom of the pump under one of the pistons, put the pump back together and rotate the engine. two out of the four scribe lines should line up, do this with all four.

 

Don't know how to adjust if wrong, mine were ok

 

Andrew

 

No, No, No!! "Under no circumstances must the engine be turned whilst the .111" gauge is in position...........serious damage..." (quote from Gardner manual). The gauge is placed on top of the fuel pump tappet while the tappet is on the back of the cam (lowest point).

Adjustment is via a screw on top of the fuel pump tappet, only likely to be needed after a loooong period of service or a new/reconditioned fuel pump being fitted.

 

As has been said, the sprayers should not produce a solid jet, whatever the state of the pump. If they are doing so, they are still faulty. Are you sure it really is a solid jet, not a narrow mist? Once you've seen both, there's no possibility of confusing the two.

 

Tim

[OptedOut]

I hate to ask again, compression OK?

[OptedOut]

Another thing I forgot to mention, if your system has a bleed off pipe on top of the filter is to make sure the pinhole in the banjo bolt is not blocked, (will not bleed air automatically).

[Chris Pink]

Are you sure it really is a solid jet, not a narrow mist? Once you've seen both, there's no possibility of confusing the two.

 

I am not sure about this and was wondering about whether it was wise to post. I haven't seen them, just spoken on the phone. I will go and have a look (when it's warm enough to go out again). I would have thought that Walshes would have flagged this and the reason for the question earlier was that I thought Snibble's post was right - the injector blow off is independent of fuel pump pressure - but though i would check.

 

I hate to ask again, compression OK?

 

next on the list, the south west is a rural idyll, (think Constable) and such pieces of equipment as compression testers with fittings for injector holes.... well it's a long story.

[OptedOut]

Edit: Wrong thread

Edited December 8, 2008 by OptedOut

[Athy]

Was this ever resolved, and if so, how?

[steamraiser2]

Gardner engines ,properly set up, will start readily down to temperatures well below freezing. I have started a 5LW easily, by hand, when well below zero. They do not need a lot of cranking. The commonest cold start issues generally fall into a couple of categories. Condition and Operation. Far too many people try and start them without enough throttle and without the cold start button depressed. If your engine turns more than a couple of turns without firing there is clearly something wrong with either your technique or the engine itself.

 

You should never need to use Easy Start or a blowlamp, oil or thermostarts to get them going. Always remember that Gardner became the diesel engine of choice because of their ability to start from cold, just like the Lister CS and JPs.

 

We often wince at Gardner engines we come across in boats. You have all seen them. The Gardner that starts by force of habit after a sustained assult on the starter motor and then spews clouds of smoke for the next half hour! Generally poor starting like this is caused by incorrect valve and/or injector pump timing (always ignore Gardner timing marks, they are usually wrong) and eventually poor compression caused by worn rings and/or bad valves.

 

A Gardner is good order will start readily with little cranking and minimal smoke. Slow cranking is usually down to a shot starter motor or batteries. Bad wiring etc will usually show itself in a cloud of smoke when under load. The starters draw a lot of current!

[Chris Pink]

Was this ever resolved, and if so, how?

 

Just realised you're talking to me!

 

Yes, he resolved it by buying a lister canal star. Not sure what happened to the 4lw.

 

Though by irony I am the proud owner of one. Lovely engine although hideously overcomplicated if you ask me. ( compared to a national or a 70s Lister which is where my knowledge lies. It's the sort of engine for boats where they have engineers.

 

Anyway. Two things I now know about cold starting. 1 it will not start without the cold start button. Even 2nd time if it stalls by being too cold to idle. And 2 I was told to use the priming lever exactly once. More than once is counter productive. (2nd hand from Tony Redshaw who supplied it originally)

 

And I know if I read the manual often enough, with graphs, special equipment and tools. I may, one day, be qualified to do a basic service.

 

For the anoraks around the manual is for a 6lw fitted to some kind of Seddons truck (manual for that included). Which I would happily swap for a proper 4lw marine one.

[The Bagdad Boatman (waits)]

Far from purging the excess diesel my Lister manual recommends pouring an eggcup full of oil down the inlet ports. then spin with decompression then drop and stand back very smoky but effective. We always used a burning rag to start lazy engines.