Gardner 4LW difficult to start

[Athy]

Thank you Andy. There are some good hints there, though should I seriously believe that a 100w light bulb will heat up a bleedin' great lump like that? I don't have mains power (without leading a cable across the road from the house), the boat has 240v but of course I need to run the engine to feed the inverter!

I started the engine today: tried the tip, mentioned above, of gunning it for five seconds four or five times, and sure enough it started quite quickly afterwards, although to be fair it isn't as cold outside as it was last week when I last started it.

Someone locally (another practical gnome - you get 'em round these parts) suggested that a larger starter motor would make a difference. The current one is apparently the model used on a Ford Transit, and does look a bit small for the job. Has he got a point?

[andywatson]

Thank you Andy. There are some good hints there, though should I seriously believe that a 100w light bulb will heat up a bleedin' great lump like that? I don't have mains power (without leading a cable across the road from the house), the boat has 240v but of course I need to run the engine to feed the inverter!

 

Well the "wolverine" heater (suggested by david and julie) has a range of models starting from 50W upwards and these are for car engine compartments and outdoor equipment.

My guess is that if it's on long enough and is well insulated by a blanket that it will work.

In any case it doesn't cost much to give it a try.

I think a 100w light bulbs cost about 25p and if it doesn't work you can use it in the house or put it on ebay!

[OptedOut]

I would think about 9.5 volts at the starter terminals when on load is about right, sounds like a slight lack of compression problem?

 

Edit: When I eventually got around to fitting a starter motor on my Lister I ended up buying welding cable which I think was 60 sq/mm.

Edited November 5, 2008 by OptedOut

[Timleech]

The decompressor has a centre position 'run' where there is obviously no cam operating turn it one way and it lifts something turn it the other way and it still lifts something but with less resistence.

 

i know, i know.... RTFM

 

back soon......

 

I've just checked the 4LK manual, there's definitely only one 'decompressed' position (vertical-ish), the running position is horizontal. If his lever moves further down, there's possibly a stop broken or out of adjustment.

The older L2/LW engines move the inlet rocker sideways so that a lug on the side bears on the valve stem, which gives increased clearance and thereby a higher compression ratio as the valve closes nearer to BDC than when running.

 

Tim

[Chris Pink]

Dispirited they trudge back from their labours.....

 

not an electrical problem, probability high 0.9s. 2 good well charged batteries capable of starting tractors on cold winter mornings, turned the engine over with gusto for 2 minutes, on 'throttle just open' - the user's handbook, throttle half open - Tim, above and throttle full open - us, panic.

 

The voltage drop measurements; from 12.9 down to 11.5 across the battery, 0.208V down the +ve cable and 0.16V down the -ve.

 

good quantities grey smoke but no cough no splutter no attempt to fire nada niente nodding at all.

 

Next step?

 

The fact that the engine runs smoothly once running. Using the priming levers causes satisfactory injector 'creak'. No evidence of water or dirt.

 

Can't be fuel supply.

 

Could be fuel pump timing? Valve clearance? valve timing? all beyond the scope of my skills and experience.

 

Anyone know of a South West based Gardner engineer?

 

The above posts about heating are not particularly relevant to this problem as today is not at all cold.

[OptedOut]

Is it possible to crank the engine by hand, if so you could do a rough compression test, i.e. the compression should be enough to pevent hand cranking and have a good "spring back".

Any air leakage noises could suggest poor ring or valve seal.

If you can force it slowly over compression you have problems.

[Timleech]

Anyone know of a South West based Gardner engineer?

 

 

If you want a 'serious' Gardner engineer you could ask

 

http://www.gardnermarinediesels.com/aboutus.html

 

or

 

http://www.gardnerdiesel.co.uk/Walshs_Web_Site/GARDNER.html

 

for recommendations

 

Tim

[david and julie]

Thank you Andy. There are some good hints there, though should I seriously believe that a 100w light bulb will heat up a bleedin' great lump like that? I don't have mains power (without leading a cable across the road from the house), the boat has 240v but of course I need to run the engine to feed the inverter!

I wasn't really suggesting a heater to cure the OP's problem more as an alternative to you having to start yours every 2 days. I must admit though when you said elsewhere that your boat was moored at home I assumed you had shorepower. Apperently those heaters are also available in 12V too, probably a bit thirsty mind.

http://www.dieselproducts.com/proheat/proheat_qanda.html

[chris w]

The voltage drop measurements; from 12.9 down to 11.5 across the battery, 0.208V down the +ve cable and 0.16V down the -ve.

This seems like an incredibly low votage drop on starting - more like 3v would be normal rather than 1.4v. The implication is that your starter is not drawing enough starter current and this is why it appears to be running slowly.

 

My Isuzu 35, which starts like a dream even on the coldest day, draws around 140A when starting. This, passing through the approx 20 milliohms of the battery, means that the voltage drops to about 9.8v whilst cranking. (140A x 0.02 ohms = 2.8 volts). Even a car engine will typically cause a 3v drop whilst cranking.

 

When you consider that 0.4v of your 1.4v drop is due to the cable, according to your measurements, there doesn't appear to be much starting current (maybe as little as 50A which definitely can't be enough).

 

Might be worth investigating further.

 

Chris

[Chris Pink]

This, passing through the approx 20 milliohms of the battery, means that the voltage drops to about 9.8v whilst cranking. (140A x 0.02 ohms = 2.8 volts). Even a car engine will typically cause a 3v drop whilst cranking.

 

When you consider that 0.4v of your 1.4v drop is due to the cable, according to your measurements, there doesn't appear to be much starting current (maybe as little as 50A which definitely can't be enough).

 

Might be worth investigating further.

 

Chris

 

How about the fact that we were using 2 tractor starting batteries - rated at 760 CCA each?

 

Would this affect the drop/current being drawn by the starter in your calculations?

 

It must be said that by the time I had rationalised some of the wiring the starter was spinning faster than originally.

 

How about the cable drop - is that what would be expected for 2 approx 16mm diameter x 1.5m cables?

[jake_crew]

F W I W Our 1930s Gleniffer (similar to a Kelvin) was a bit of a cow to start in the Winter.

 

We'd always light a fire in the back cabin for a couple of hours, with the doors thro' to the engine room doors open, tho' I'm not convinced this made a lot of difference to 25cwt of Scottish iron. I think it just made it more comfortable for the humans.

 

The magic wand was Easy Start. One squirt up the air intake just as the decomp levers went over.

 

But as is well known, these old motors get addicted to it. And so do the owners. Mind you, we normally hand cranked it, so any help was welcome.

 

Once you start using it, you'll never give it up.

Edited November 5, 2008 by jake_crew

[chris w]

How about the fact that we were using 2 tractor starting batteries - rated at 760 CCA each?

 

Would this affect the drop/current being drawn by the starter in your calculations?

 

It must be said that by the time I had rationalised some of the wiring the starter was spinning faster than originally.

 

How about the cable drop - is that what would be expected for 2 approx 16mm diameter x 1.5m cables?

Yes that would make a big difference as the combined battery resistance will be about 10 milliohms.

 

To get 0.4v drop down the cables you cite, would mean they are passing 125A (this does not take the connector resistances into account). So, say 100A allowing some resistance for the connections.

 

With 2 batteries in parallel, 100A through 10 milliohms will mean a 1v drop at the batteries which is now more or less exactly in line with what you are seeing. However, if my modern Isuzu 35 draws 140A on cranking, I would have thought that your bigger, older engine would still draw a lot more current?

 

Chris

[Timleech]

Yes that would make a big difference as the combined battery resistance will be about 10 milliohms.

 

To get 0.4v drop down the cables you cite, would mean they are passing 125A (this does not take the connector resistances into account). So, say 100A allowing some resistance for the connections.

 

With 2 batteries in parallel, 100A through 10 milliohms will mean a 1v drop at the batteries which is now more or less exactly in line with what you are seeing. However, if my modern Isuzu 35 draws 140A on cranking, I would have thought that your bigger, older engine would still draw a lot more current?

 

Chris

 

I wonder whether you have misread Chris's description of the cable, he says 16mm diameter, not sqmm area.

I'd expect a BS5 starter (as fitted to the 4LK) to take something of the order of 250/300A under normal-ish load, I expect Sirnibble would be able to be more specific.

 

Tim

[chris w]

I wonder whether you have misread Chris's description of the cable, he says 16mm diameter, not sqmm area.

I'd expect a BS5 starter (as fitted to the 4LK) to take something of the order of 250/300A under normal-ish load, I expect Sirnibble would be able to be more specific.

 

Tim

Whoops - you're absolutely right - I misread it.

 

Of course the question is - does that diameter include the insulation or not? First, let's assume not - I just can't believe these are 200mm² which is what the calculation gives. I've never seen such large cables on a boat. Even Gibbo only uses 90mm²!

 

So let's assume they are 16mm diameter including the insulation and that the insulation wall thickness is 1.5mm (ie: 3mm across the diameter). That would mean a 13mm diameter actual cable. That equates to a 132mm2 cable - still unbelievably large, so I am now confused.

 

The twin-battery drop of 1v (not including the cable drop) would still imply only 100A.

 

Chris

Edited November 5, 2008 by chris w

[Timleech]

Whoops - you're absolutely right - I misread it.

 

Of course the question is - does that diameter include the insulation or not? First, let's assume not - I just can't believe these are 200mm² which is what the calculation gives. I've never seen such large cables on a boat. Even Gibbo only uses 90mm²!

 

So let's assume they are 16mm diameter including the insulation and that the insulation wall thickness is 1.5mm (ie: 3mm across the diameter). That would mean a 13mm diameter actual cable. That equates to a 132mm2 cable - still unbelievably large, so I am now confused.

 

Chris

 

Probably about 90 sqmm. Don't forget there's airspace between the strands of conductor.

 

Tim

[chris w]

Probably about 90 sqmm. Don't forget there's airspace between the strands of conductor.

 

Tim

Let's assume that's correct but, as I said above, the battery voltage drop would still only imply 100A starter current. The drop at 100A down 90mm² cables of that length would be about 60 millivolts, so the balance of the 0.4v drop must be poor connections.

 

250A drawn from those batteries would give about a 2.5v drop at the batteries.

 

Chris

[MoominPapa]

Probably about 90 sqmm. Don't forget there's airspace between the strands of conductor.

 

Tim

 

That sounds right. I'm in the process of moving and rewiring my inverter with 90 sqmm cable and it's about that diameter. It's a bit of a sod to work with, and total overkill but I got it free as a large offcut, and buying more reasonably sized cables of the length I needed would have cost about £150.

 

MP.

[smileypete]

When he first got the boat the engine started readily but got steadily worse until he took the actions of replacing the batteries and re-conditioning the starter motor (which was said to be in good nick when examined)

 

good quantities grey smoke but no cough no splutter no attempt to fire nada niente nodding at all.

 

...

 

Could be fuel pump timing? Valve clearance? valve timing? all beyond the scope of my skills and experience.

 

Possibly the injectors need servicing, if in poor condition they might not atomise well enough with a cold engine at starting RPMs.

 

In the meantime I'd try a hairdryer (preferably mains) into the inlet manifold before and during starting.

 

cheers,

Pete.

[OptedOut]

Try one of these.

 

http://www.springstarter.com/product_range_sm.htm

[david and julie]

Try one of these.

 

http://www.springstarter.com/product_range_sm.htm

 

30 years (or should that be tears) ago we had to put up those starters on welding plants and compressors. It was a half hour comedy show winding them up every morning in the winter and that picture brought it all back to me.

 

Don't whatever you do go down that route.

Edited November 6, 2008 by david and julie

[OptedOut]

30 years (or should that be tears) ago we had to put up those starters on welding plants and compressors. It was a half hour comedy show winding them up every morning in the winter and that picture brought it all back to me.

 

Don't whatever you do go down that route.

 

I did consider one before I bit the bullet and bought a starter motor and battery etc, looks like I made the best decision.

[andywatson]

I did consider one before I bit the bullet and bought a starter motor and battery etc, looks like I made the best decision.

 

I used one a few years ago (1994) although I don't know if it was that particular make.

They are fitted to the (small) diesel engines of lifeboats for drilling rigs where reliability is crucial, and verified by the HSE.

 

The one I used was at the Offshore Survival School at Fleetwood and it did work OK. It was a bit of a palaver to crank up though.

 

Does anyone actually have one of these or know of one in use first hand?

[Timleech]

Does anyone actually have one of these or know of one in use first hand?

 

I've used these Handraulic starters quite a bit:-

 

http://www.atlanticdiesel.com/emergency-starting.htm

 

They are the other main 'black start' system.

 

Tim

Edited November 7, 2008 by Timleech

[andywatson]

In the meantime I'd try a hairdryer (preferably mains) into the inlet manifold before and during starting.

 

cheers,

Pete.

 

I like the hairdryer trick so I'll remember that one.

Madame's hair dryer dims the street lights and would start a Bolinder.

 

On the subject of engines becoming "addicted" to quick start etc.

It seems to be well accepted by everyone but I can't understand the logic.

Is there any possibility that an engine which wouldn't start without this help won't start any other way and appears to be addicted or does an otherwise good engine that has been started this way once always need it?

 

Whats the explanation?????

[MoominPapa]

On the subject of engines becoming "addicted" to quick start etc.

It seems to be well accepted by everyone but I can't understand the logic.

Is there any possibility that an engine which wouldn't start without this help won't start any other way and appears to be addicted or does an otherwise good engine that has been started this way once always need it?

 

Whats the explanation?????

 

The Manual for my Lister FR cautions against using Easy start. The reason given is that the heavy detonation can actually slightly bend the con-rods, permanently reducing the compression ratio and thereby making it impossible to start without Easy start.

 

I'm not sure I believe it, but that's what the manual says.

 

 

MP.