Gardner 4LW difficult to start

[Timleech]

The Manual for my Lister FR cautions against using Easy start. The reason given is that the heavy detonation can actually slightly bend the con-rods, permanently reducing the compression ratio and thereby making it impossible to start without Easy start.

 

I'm not sure I believe it, but that's what the manual says.

 

 

MP.

 

The other danger is of breaking the top compression rings or maybe enlarging the top ring groove, which would have a similar effect.

Often I think it may be the operator who becomes addicted, an engine has worn to the point that it's hard to start, the operator finds that easy start makes it easier so doesn't want to bother with lots of cranking, flat batteries etc.

Easy start used in very small doses, all that's needed in most cases unless there's a fundamental problem, probably won't do any harm but with an aerosol can in your hand it's not easy to control the dose.

 

Tim

Edited November 7, 2008 by Timleech

[johnthebridge]

I like the hairdryer trick so I'll remember that one.

Madame's hair dryer dims the street lights and would start a Bolinder.

 

On the subject of engines becoming "addicted" to quick start etc.

It seems to be well accepted by everyone but I can't understand the logic.

Is there any possibility that an engine which wouldn't start without this help won't start any other way and appears to be addicted or does an otherwise good engine that has been started this way once always need it?

 

Whats the explanation?????

It's also said that the Easystart washes the oil off the bores, thus reducing the compression.

[david and julie]

They are fitted to the (small) diesel engines of lifeboats for drilling rigs where reliability is crucial, and verified by the HSE.

Thats interesting about the drilling rigs Andy, did they have spring starters for fire safety?

 

I worked in the Gas industry years ago and we had spring starters on some engines, they also had no dynamo/alternator/battery and spark arrestors on the exhausts.

 

The bigger engines (Mirrlees Blackstones mainly) also had no electrics, they had air starters driven by a compressor, usually off small Listers.

[OptedOut]

Thats interesting about the drilling rigs Andy, did they have spring starters for fire safety?

 

I worked in the Gas industry years ago and we had spring starters on some engines, they also had no dynamo/alternator/battery and spark arrestors on the exhausts.

 

The bigger engines (Mirrlees Blackstones mainly) also had no electrics, they had air starters driven by a compressor, usually off small Listers.

 

That brings back memories.

 

Start Lister compressor, fill Lister-Blackstone air bottle, start same and get "On the bars" for Mirrlees-National auxilliaries.

Start Mirrlees-Nationals on red diesel and synchronize, warm up heavy fuel system and switch to heavy oil.

Fiddle with waste heat boilers and retire to messroom.

Edited November 7, 2008 by OptedOut

[andywatson]

Thats interesting about the drilling rigs Andy, did they have spring starters for fire safety?

 

I worked in the Gas industry years ago and we had spring starters on some engines, they also had no dynamo/alternator/battery and spark arrestors on the exhausts.

 

The bigger engines (Mirrlees Blackstones mainly) also had no electrics, they had air starters driven by a compressor, usually off small Listers.

 

There is plenty of electrical power around on rigs and even welding/grinding is allowed in proper places.

 

I suspect that the requirements of making the lifeboats totaly self sufficient, ie not requiring any power from the rig and not needing battery maintentance and charging, was the driver.

That's a qualified guess as I was at the time a drilling engineer concerned with downhole operations not a rig/marine engineer.

 

The lifeboats were actually totally enclosed egg shaped things which even had their own limited oxygen supply and self (water) spraying systems to survive in fires for a limited period intill you could get clear of danger.

As a result of being egg shaped they were a pretty rough ride and being sealed in one of those in a chop with diesel fumes and the floor awash with sick wasn't much fun.

 

I worked down the pit when I left school.

The underground diesel locomotives were powered by Gardner LWs which had an air start and flame traps on the exhaust. This definately was for explosion avoidance.

Edited November 7, 2008 by andywatson

[ditchcrawler]

I used one a few years ago (1994) although I don't know if it was that particular make.

They are fitted to the (small) diesel engines of lifeboats for drilling rigs where reliability is crucial, and verified by the HSE.

 

The one I used was at the Offshore Survival School at Fleetwood and it did work OK. It was a bit of a palaver to crank up though.

 

Does anyone actually have one of these or know of one in use first hand?

They also use hydraulic starters with nitrogen filled accumulators which recharge when the engine starts, if it doesn't start you have to re pump it up by hand.

[Timleech]

They also use hydraulic starters with nitrogen filled accumulators which recharge when the engine starts, if it doesn't start you have to re pump it up by hand.

 

 

Like in Post 48?

 

 

Tim

[down the north]

Interesting one this,,

we can all surmise and guess but its so difficult not being there ! So it turns, produces grey smoke but no firing.Is the engine knackered, ie, pistons, rings etc worn out, so little compression. When it runs, does it run without any smoke, or does it burn oil, sure sign of either worn valve giudes or bore.

The priming pump, just gives 10 injector squirts, ok with that. Heres something I will suggest but be very careful.

Any diesel can be got going with engine oil and diesel in 50 / 50% mix. I use this on a petter dumper engine, and have an oil can with the evil brew therein, have drilled a hole in the inlet manifold and 4 squirts does the trick.

I have a lister ST2 on another dumper and it has 2 plug caps about .75 inch dia feeding the inlet manifold just for that reason, and the brew never fails to get it going on cold mornings.

The danger is that you could put too much in and cause hydraulic lock !!!! ouch, but it both seals a worn bore ,so giving compression, and the diesel burns easily once atomised fuel from the injectors has fired,,

if it gets going easily this way, I'/d suspect worn bores, pistons, rings , or squirting injectors,

A good idea on the state of an engine is to drop a big end shell out and see how worn that is !!

1.5 to 2 thou per inch of journal dia is good / normal, 10 thou on a 3 inch big end, err bit worn out !!

At 53 BHP, 2000 rpm, it could be as previously mentioned all clagged up !! its direct injection so that aids starting,

are all injectors spraying correctly ????

 

hope this gives some food 4 thought,,,

martin

[ditchcrawler]

Like in Post 48?

 

 

Tim

Your right and I realised some one would pick me up when I read the rest of the thread. Its a case of coming to a posting and replying. I will try to read the lot before putting mt 2p in.

[david and julie]

Your right and I realised some one would pick me up when I read the rest of the thread. Its a case of coming to a posting and replying. I will try to read the lot before putting mt 2p in.

If I had a pound for every time I've done that I'd be asking questions about my Gardner now.

[Chris Pink]

Interesting one this,,

we can all surmise and guess but its so difficult not being there ! So it turns, produces grey smoke but no firing.Is the engine knackered, ie, pistons, rings etc worn out, so little compression. When it runs, does it run without any smoke, or does it burn oil, sure sign of either worn valve giudes or bore.

The priming pump, just gives 10 injector squirts, ok with that. Heres something I will suggest but be very careful.

Any diesel can be got going with engine oil and diesel in 50 / 50% mix. I use this on a petter dumper engine, and have an oil can with the evil brew therein, have drilled a hole in the inlet manifold and 4 squirts does the trick.

I have a lister ST2 on another dumper and it has 2 plug caps about .75 inch dia feeding the inlet manifold just for that reason, and the brew never fails to get it going on cold mornings.

The danger is that you could put too much in and cause hydraulic lock !!!! ouch, but it both seals a worn bore ,so giving compression, and the diesel burns easily once atomised fuel from the injectors has fired,,

if it gets going easily this way, I'/d suspect worn bores, pistons, rings , or squirting injectors,

A good idea on the state of an engine is to drop a big end shell out and see how worn that is !!

1.5 to 2 thou per inch of journal dia is good / normal, 10 thou on a 3 inch big end, err bit worn out !!

At 53 BHP, 2000 rpm, it could be as previously mentioned all clagged up !! its direct injection so that aids starting,

are all injectors spraying correctly ????

 

hope this gives some food 4 thought,,,

martin

 

yes, definitely some stuff to try, taking out the injectors to check the spray visually and oil/diesel mix are two to try. My understanding is that it was compression tested and the injectors serviced 2 years ago. There is no blowing out the dipstick hole when going and the exhaust runs reasonably clear once up to temperature so i think injectors more likely than wear but with an engine of this age nothing can be ruled out.

 

The fuel pump/governor arrangement seems a lot more complicated than my National so i don't know if there's anything there that may be out of kilter even though the fuel is getting through is it getting through at the right time?

 

Richard the Fender maker would like to say thank you for all the advice, he has a wonderful picture of 10 hairy geezers stood around his engine hole giving their sage advice.

[Timleech]

yes, definitely some stuff to try, taking out the injectors to check the spray visually and oil/diesel mix are two to try. My understanding is that it was compression tested and the injectors serviced 2 years ago. There is no blowing out the dipstick hole when going and the exhaust runs reasonably clear once up to temperature so i think injectors more likely than wear but with an engine of this age nothing can be ruled out.

 

The fuel pump/governor arrangement seems a lot more complicated than my National so i don't know if there's anything there that may be out of kilter even though the fuel is getting through is it getting through at the right time?

 

Richard the Fender maker would like to say thank you for all the advice, he has a wonderful picture of 10 hairy geezers stood around his engine hole giving their sage advice.

 

 

If you're taking the injectors out to test them, check the valve tappet clearances whilst you're at it.

Also try cranking it over with the air intake pipe off, you'll be able to hear whether the inlet valves are leaking.

 

Tim

[jake_crew]

If that's a real picture (rather than mental) - lets see it !

Edited November 8, 2008 by jake_crew

[LEO]

Hi,

 

All very interesting, further to my earlier posts I do think you are suffering with 'big enginititus' ie. a big 56 hp ehngine doing the work that a 28 or 42 HP engine should be doing.

 

If it's puffing white smoke and not starting it may well be that the compression is poor. Gardners were very highly engineered and designed so that they did not need pre-heaters etc to start them - the high compression did that.

 

Don't go near the governor without reading a manual, they are complicated and carefully balanced and some people seriously compromise them trying to get the tickover too slow.

 

Bear in mind here you got a large engine, ticking over slowly and running slowly, below normal operating temperature when underway and you have a got a picture of clagged up engine innards, exhaust valves and pipes and sprayers. Check the sprayers carefully.

 

I note someone may have done a compression test a couple of years ago, was that someone qualified to work on these fine engines? did they give a receipt?, will they come back? if the answer no, at least buy a manual and service tool for the sprayers and check them over.

 

Best of luck - Gardners are fine engines, it's a pity that the big ones either end up in narrowboats or in Eygpt being melted down for scrap..

 

Albi

 

PS a 4 cylinder Gardner in a boat would be Ok if you were pulling, say, 3 loaded butties up stream on the Thames or the Trent in flood. You can always tell if a narrowboat coming towards you has a big engine because it's always smoking badly, a shame - and I think Gardners are the finest of engines.

[johnthebridge]

There is a Bord na Mona yard in Ireland that I visited this year. Lying in a field at the back of this yard were about 35 6 cylinder LWs and (I think) LXs, plus several 4LWs.

[Chris Pink]

Hi,

 

All very interesting, further to my earlier posts I do think you are suffering with 'big enginititus' ie. a big 56 hp ehngine doing the work that a 28 or 42 HP engine should be doing.

 

If it's puffing white smoke and not starting it may well be that the compression is poor. Gardners were very highly engineered and designed so that they did not need pre-heaters etc to start them - the high compression did that.

 

Don't go near the governor without reading a manual, they are complicated and carefully balanced and some people seriously compromise them trying to get the tickover too slow.

 

Bear in mind here you got a large engine, ticking over slowly and running slowly, below normal operating temperature when underway and you have a got a picture of clagged up engine innards, exhaust valves and pipes and sprayers. Check the sprayers carefully.

 

I note someone may have done a compression test a couple of years ago, was that someone qualified to work on these fine engines? did they give a receipt?, will they come back? if the answer no, at least buy a manual and service tool for the sprayers and check them over.

 

Best of luck - Gardners are fine engines, it's a pity that the big ones either end up in narrowboats or in Eygpt being melted down for scrap..

 

Albi

 

PS a 4 cylinder Gardner in a boat would be Ok if you were pulling, say, 3 loaded butties up stream on the Thames or the Trent in flood. You can always tell if a narrowboat coming towards you has a big engine because it's always smoking badly, a shame - and I think Gardners are the finest of engines.

 

 

A small update;

 

injectors out - a little coked up cleaned up and replaced

decompressors are now decompressing 4 cylinders rather than one, so spins nice now

valve clearances checked OK, there's a very little blow back from the valves when turning over but no hissing noise (like on my National as a matter of course)

 

was difficult to do the oil down the air 'ole bit so this was left, also on the principle that it would be better to sort out what's wrong rather than just fire-fight

 

you can tell what's coming....

 

nothing

 

 

 

 

I won't touch the fuel pump, timing or governor as it seems hideously over complicated and I am but an 'umble fitter and not an engineer

 

 

 

one puzzling item - the injectors when operated with the priming pump out of the cylinder, only one was giving a good mist 2 others were spraying as a stream. What could cause this? it does not seem right to me? Should they be checked on a test rig? Would a general diesel engineer be qualified to do this or would he be best sending them to a specialist vintage bod?

 

The injectors were serviced 2 years ago, at the same time as the compression test was done and the answer to Albi is no - it is not clear this was a proper job. The engineer who caused the starter motor to be spuriously reconditioned also disappeared.

 

 

my advice in the long term is to get the engine properly serviced by a proper Gardner experienced engineer but obviously this is going to cost so if there was anything in the short term to get the beast going.

 

 

any opinions on the injectors?

Edited November 12, 2008 by Chris Pink

[smileypete]

one puzzling item - the injectors when operated with the priming pump out of the cylinder, only one was giving a good mist 2 others were spraying as a stream. What could cause this? it does not seem right to me? Should they be checked on a test rig? Would a general diesel engineer be qualified to do this or would he be best sending them to a specialist vintage bod?

 

...

 

my advice in the long term is to get the engine properly serviced by a proper Gardner experienced engineer but obviously this is going to cost so if there was anything in the short term to get the beast going.

 

See post #43.

 

Any diesel engine specialist should be able to service injectors (try yellow pages?)

 

I think it requires special machinery, not just a matter of chipping carbon off them.

 

cheers,

Pete.

Edited November 12, 2008 by smileypete

[Timleech]

A small update;

 

 

 

one puzzling item - the injectors when operated with the priming pump out of the cylinder, only one was giving a good mist 2 others were spraying as a stream. What could cause this? it does not seem right to me? Should they be checked on a test rig? Would a general diesel engineer be qualified to do this or would he be best sending them to a specialist vintage bod?

 

The injectors were serviced 2 years ago, at the same time as the compression test was done and the answer to Albi is no - it is not clear this was a proper job. The engineer who caused the starter motor to be spuriously reconditioned also disappeared.

 

 

my advice in the long term is to get the engine properly serviced by a proper Gardner experienced engineer but obviously this is going to cost so if there was anything in the short term to get the beast going.

 

 

any opinions on the injectors?

 

They do need to spray as a mist, that's probably 90% of the problem. I'm surprised that the exhaust is clean when running if they're not. Get them serviced. Any proper fuel injection place ought to ba able to do the job, but some might have the attitude that fitting new parts is the only option, cleaning & lapping nozzles seems to be a bit of a dying art.

Gardner injectors are their own oddity, whereas the pumps are fairly standard CAV bits, so if you can find an old-established place with a 'mature' guy who knows the ropes you'll be in with a better chance.

I have an idea that the nozzles are the same as for the LX, in which case new ones wouldn't be a problem. If I'm wrong, you might struggle to get hold of new ones.

 

Tim

[Sir Nibble]

I reconditioned gardner injectors as an apprentice and it is definately a specialist pump shop job. Those injecting a "stream" as you call it are at best going to produce smoke instead of power and may well be performing even worse under compression pressures than you are seeing in the open air. The job involves precision grinding and specialist equipment.

[Timleech]

Another point to bear in mind is that when refitting the injectors, the nuts musn't be tightened hard down. The makers would have supplied a special tube spanner with an integral very short tommy bar to give some control over the tightening. As they have a conical seating, overtightening can start hairline cracks in the head.

 

BTW I've just looked in my injector drawer, I've got one LK injector & the nozzle nut is stamped 'LK L3B' so maybe the nozzle is common with the L3B. Maybe it's the body that's common with the LX, or maybe I just dreamed that one.

 

Tim

[LEO]

Hi,

 

Gardner-enthusiast.com do a good deal on replacement/service exchange sprayers. As the name suggests they are sprayers not injectors. Have a look at their website, I have found them very helpful and some of their Videos are reall gems-----------------------MG Lazylion films (LEO).

 

Albi/Leo

 

PS Sounds as if you are getting there, wise to order a special spanner.

[OptedOut]

"The injectors were serviced 2 years ago"

 

Just a word of warning on injectors, I had a severe smoking problem on my Lister HA.

The industry "Experts" at both Cardiff and Gloucester assured me the injectors were OK, this seemed to be confirmed by my own tests on the engine, four nice fine sprays etc.

I eventually decided to bite the bullet and have new nozzles fitted by a highly recommended specialist in Stroud, his findings, wrong nozzles, one wrong shroud , problem solved.

 

This problem would never have been found by Lucas as all they did was test pressure and spray pattern.

[steamraiser2]

I've noted the comments regarding the hard starting of the 4LW and can't help but note that my experience of them (40 years or so) has taught me a few things regarding them!. The first is ..if you really want to trash your engine start squirting Easy Start into it!. The ether in East Start will wash off all vestiges of oil at the tops of the bores helping to wear out your compression rings at high speed. Possession of a can of Easy Start was a "sack on the spot" offence in the company I was apprenticed to in the 1960s..you don't want to go there..ever.

 

The second thing about Gardners is that they will go on for ever..sometimes when they really did'nt ought to but..low compression..ie worn rings or bad valve seating will do them in as far as starting is concerned.

 

If your injectors are jetting rather than misting vigorously the chances of it starting are small...possibly water has gotten into the fuel but, regardless of the cause, they really need to be serviced asap. Incomplete combustion caused by poor injectors will also "wash" away what remains of your compression rings! Incidentally your local friendly injection service engineer will try and set them on a modern Hartridge machine..which is'nt suitable. If in doubt get them from Walsh's they know how to do them properly.

 

Timing does'nt wander off, need a tweak or all the other "recommendations" you hear from time to time. If its set correctly it will not budge. So if your engine ran well last time and does'nt now its not down to timing.

 

All Gardners love to work hard..its why the fairground lads love them on generators..but most never get to work hard in canal boats. This inevitably leads to hours under little or low load which will result in bore glazing , worn rings, low compression.. smoke... and eventually poor starting. Sadly it sounds to me that the engine is in need of a load of TLC..( its ok to go outside and have a good cry now! )

 

To put it in perspective I once owned a crane with a 5LW in it. It would start..without Easy Start with the excess fuel button ,on the coldest of mornings ,first time, by hand!

Edited November 12, 2008 by steamraiser2

[Sir Nibble]

Hi,

 

As the name suggests they are sprayers not injectors.

Albi/Leo

And the difference is?

I think you will find that the name is all the difference there is, they're injectors.

[Timleech]

If your injectors are jetting rather than misting vigorously the chances of it starting are small...possibly water has gotten into the fuel but, regardless of the cause, they really need to be serviced asap. Incomplete combustion caused by poor injectors will also "wash" away what remains of your compression rings! Incidentally your local friendly injection service engineer will try and set them on a modern Hartridge machine..which is'nt suitable. If in doubt get them from Walsh's they know how to do them properly.

 

I'd be interested to know why you think a modern Hartridge machine isn't suitable. Not disagreeing, just curious.

 

Tim