cost of diesel

[carlt]

'The Sun aint gonna shine any more...' - Scott Engels (aka Walker)

Now come on...there's still a little hope, surely!

[alan_fincher]

72P a Litre at Welford - about average I think.

 

99p a litre at Upton - above average I think!

 

Cow Roast on the Grand Union currently at 75p - probably not far off what seems to be a rising average.

 

If they go for this fixed 80% propulsion / 20 % other split, I guess there will be something just over 40 pence to be added to any of the prices being quoted, (80% of approx 50p duty).

 

Actually, is that right ? Aren't we already paying something like 9p a litre duty on 'red' ? Perhaps the November hike would be only just over 30 pence per litre ? Or am I being too "optimistic" ?

[Ex- Member]

Cow Roast on the Grand Union currently at 75p - probably not far off what seems to be a rising average.

 

If they go for this fixed 80% propulsion / 20 % other split, I guess there will be something just over 40 pence to be added to any of the prices being quoted, (80% of approx 50p duty).

 

Actually, is that right ? Aren't we already paying something like 9p a litre duty on 'red' ? Perhaps the November hike would be only just over 30 pence per litre ? Or am I being too "optimistic" ?

 

If the cost is coming in line with white diesel currently £1.20 per litre in Dorset then taking 20% off that leaves 96P per litre, then you have to take into account that marinas take a much bigger mark up than your local garage will, so I would suggest if the prices hold at the price I've mentioned that red diesel on the cut in Nov will be around £1.11 per litre in the cheapest marinas. That's based on marinas currently charging a rate of around 75p It's clear from prices posted on here that marinas have vastly different mark ups on the fuel they sell. The country wide price difference in wholsale diesel is only a few pence.

 

I know that a marina on the K&A in 05 06 that were charging 43p per litre were buying it in at 31p per litre. A 12 p mark up per litre. Bearing in mind that the majority of the new fuel cost will be tax, it's more likely that that 12p mark up will be increased which will almost wipe out any 20% mentioned relief. So it's perfectly reasonable to assume that the price could be the same as charged at your local garage even with the 20% discount.

 

Diesel £1.20 per gallon, Of which Fuel tax & V.at @ ratio of 60% = an overall tax rate of 150%

 

Actual cost of fuel £0.48 including supermarket garage profit of £0.3p per litre. Delivered price £0.45p

 

If the delivered price to a marina is the same £0.45p (Which it won't be due to quantity) then add £12p per litre mark up for the marina, you have a base price of £0.57p per litre, taxed @ the overall rate on Derv being 150% = £1.42 per litre.

 

Take ayay a 20% reduction for heating and you'll be paying £1.13.6p Marinas that charge higher mark ups than 12p per litre will be reaching the same price as your local Morrisons or Asda.

[bottle]

but, I believe the 20% 'reduction' is on the duty not the full price.

 

Forget all the maths, 'red' diesel will be about the same as 'white' because with the 'discount' on tax, the cost will be counter acted by the marinas not being able to buy their diesel as the same rate as the large garages.

 

So at todays prices £1.20 a litre.

[jgm]

Yes, ask the pm, and yes.

 

It's still cheaper than petrol in the rest of the world.

 

I am especially cross about this 'cos remember we were actively encouraged to switch to diesel on the roads 'cos it was environmentally more acceptable. Less refining, more mpg etc, etc. Now diesel motors are much more efficient and less polluntant, we are being penalised for making the switch by paying more at the pumps.

 

Unleaded petrol in Australia is currently around $1.42/l (it varies by around 15c/week). Diesel is anywhere from $1.62 - 1.69. The explanation from the oil companies is that there are 2 different world markets in operation, with the Chinese demand for diesel inflating the world price.

[moggyjo]

Unleaded petrol in Australia is currently around $1.42/l (it varies by around 15c/week). Diesel is anywhere from $1.62 - 1.69. The explanation from the oil companies is that there are 2 different world markets in operation, with the Chinese demand for diesel inflating the world price.

 

Are those prices for a lt ?

 

Does anyone know how much diesel and petrol costs a gallon in the States?

[GUMPY]

Are those prices for a lt ?

 

Does anyone know how much diesel and petrol costs a gallon in the States?

 

had this conversation yesterday, one of our guys has just come back, about $5 a US gallon which equates to about £3 a uk gallon or 66p liter

 

Julian

[Ex- Member]

but, I believe the 20% 'reduction' is on the duty not the full price.

 

That's a good point and in essence make the fuel dear than I've suggested.

 

I did read here that the tax per litre for red diesel has already been set.

 

On 28 February 2008, HM Revenue & Customs revealed that from 1 November this year, boaters will be paying a duty rate of 56.94 pence per litre, instead of the current rate of 9.69 pence per litre.

 

This cannot be changed or discounted as it would break the european ruling that Red diesel coming into line with white. with regard to propulsion, according to the treasury.

 

Treasury officials claim that the Commission will not allow them to provide a preferential rate for pleasure boaters over other users of diesel fuel. "The policy is fixed," Fitzgerald said, "and it won't be changed unless the law is amended during the Finance Bill process.

 

It hasn't been as far as I'm aware.

 

The price has been set @ £0.54.94. per litre. But the fuel you use for heating will be taxed at the lower rate.

 

Is everyone aware that we also pay VAT, not just on the cost of the fuel, but on the cost of the fuel plus the duty.

 

If we go back to the maths based on todays price of Derv £1.20 per litre, the calculation is as follows.

 

Delivery cost of diesel to the marina. £0.45p

Plus £.12p Marina's mark up £0.57p

Plus Duty £0.54.94 £1.11.94

Plus 17.5% V.a.t £1.31.2p

 

For each additional 1p mark up by the marina, add another 1.5p

 

Marinas aren't necessarily being greedy, if they have smaller tanks, delivery costs can be higher. Marinas that can buy large quantities will get better deals.

 

Our local morrisons is currently £1,20.9

Local Texaco £1.23.9

Small garage we have rurally £1.31.9

 

The small garage being 11 p more than Morrisons.

 

Marinas are like small out of town garages but even smaller in many cases, so have to charge more. So we could well be paying well over what we would be paying for White diesel.

 

Might buy some shares in manufacturers of Jerry Cans

[jgm]

Are those prices for a lt ?

 

Does anyone know how much diesel and petrol costs a gallon in the States?

 

Yes per lt. Petrol here has a discount cycle which usually runs weekly. Tuesday is generally the cheapest with prices rising anywhere up to 18c per litre on Wednesdays. Diesel doesn't follow the same cycle. At present it can be anywhere from 19c/lt to > 28c/lt more than unleaded petrol. Last year, diesel was around the lowest petrol price, & a few years back, it was better than 10% lower.

[Nickhlx]

Well, if white diesel is going to be cheaper than red diesel, I, for one, will be using white diesel and jerry cans ( already have 15 of them) and certainly not averse to carting two or three a week to the boat, assuming its not illegal and considered evasion of tax (!) That would be the next thing.... and maybe the Webasto will be much happier too !

 

Now, how are we getting on with propane and diesel engines ?

 

Nick

[Ex- Member]

Well, if white diesel is going to be cheaper than red diesel, I, for one, will be using white diesel and jerry cans ( already have 15 of them) and certainly not averse to carting two or three a week to the boat, assuming its not illegal and considered evasion of tax (!) That would be the next thing.... and maybe the Webasto will be much happier too !

 

Now, how are we getting on with propane and diesel engines ?

 

Nick

 

It certainly wouldn't be illegal if the tax rate is equal to Red as proposed. And yes the Webasto and Eberspacher type heaters would be happier on it. Only thing is though if a different rate is chrged for heating, then it would be cheaper than White forecourt diesel, so still viable to use. We have separate tanks for heating, so hopefully that will be the case, and we can fill those up at the current rate. However I like yourself would use White diesel from the forecourt, even if only a few pence cheaper per litre.

 

I really think marinas will struggle keeping their prices in line with White forecourt diesel. If people start doing what you and i suggest, then the marinas will have to charge even more for diesel on the canal, or as I suspect will just stop selling it.

 

Ref LPG

My brother's an engineer so I've sent him off all the details on the system and am awaiting responses from a couple of companies doing this. My Bro is good at sussing and calculating if this sort of thing is viable. At the moment it seems that you can't get kits for this system, well I can't find any anyway, but if they did become available, being able to fit the system yourself would bring costs down a lot.

 

He's a boat owner too BTW

Edited May 11, 2008 by Julynian

[Yoda]

Do you mean to run your main propulsion diesel engine on LPG?

[Ex- Member]

Do you mean to run your main propulsion diesel engine on LPG?

 

No It's a system where you add LPG to your diesel supply at the point prior to injection. this causes Diesel to burn @ a 100% efficiency where currently diesel only burns 75 to 80% that's why diesels have Black Smoke, unburn't fuel basically. It's claimed that it makes a deisel engine 20% more efficient, and the LPG you use is cheaper and more efficient also.

 

You can convert a diesel engine to LPG though if desired, but it's a lot of engineering. This is done commonly on diesel Forklift trucks that work inside to reduce emmissions and noise.

 

There's also a duel version where you can switch from diesel to LPG and vice versa.

[grandunion5]

Hi all!

 

I'm not sure whether this was in UK news, but it is big news in Belgium. The European Union has decided to raise minimum excise duties on 1,000 litres of diesel from the present 302 Euros to 330 Euros in 2010 and possibly to 359 Euros in 2012. This, according to the papers, will make diesel so expensive (you have to add VAT and whatever benefits retailers get) that nobody will be able to afford it unless governments do something to help users.

 

Somehow I feel it's time to invest in a couple of horses and get rid of those diesel engines. Back to basics might be the solution haha. Having a horse could just be a new source of pleasure and relaxation. Good for the environment, too

 

See you all along the soon quieter canals

 

Marc

[nbfiresprite]

Price Update at Foxes Marina, Middle Levels

 

99p from today

 

 

£1.70 + from November 1st

 

When I moved up here in 2003, it was only 26p

 

Firesprite

[alan_fincher]

Price Update at Foxes Marina, Middle Levels

 

99p from today

 

 

£1.70 + from November 1st

 

When I moved up here in 2003, it was only 26p

 

Firesprite

How do you calculate that anticipated 71 pence increase, exactly, then, please ?

[Lingy]

Is that correct?

[Cheshire cat]

I'm as dismayed as everyone else but have you worked out your mpg? I believe mine is about 6.5mpg which is truly awful. 2.2 nanni. The previous 1.8 bmc was quite a bit better. Perhaps we should be focussing on demanding more frugal engines or alternative methods of propulsion

[Lingy]

Elastic bands?

[Machpoint005]

I'm as dismayed as everyone else but have you worked out your mpg? I believe mine is about 6.5mpg which is truly awful. 2.2 nanni. The previous 1.8 bmc was quite a bit better. Perhaps we should be focussing on demanding more frugal engines or alternative methods of propulsion

 

A bit ridiculous calculating MPG IMO- better litres per hour, because the distance travelled does not relate closely to engine use (no mechanical connection between the road and the engine!).

If you are using more than a litre or so an hour, I'd say your revs are too high. Slow down a bit?

 

 

(edited to explain better)

Edited June 22, 2008 by Machpoint005

[Ex- Member]

I posted this on another Diesel thread recently.

 

As the duty on diesel will rise in November in real terms by £0.47p per litre which is also liable to v.a.t = 55,22p So what a marina charges today bearing in mind they're happy with their current profit margin, then adding the 55.22p rise on to their current price today, is what it would cost if we were suddenly under the new deisel duty regime. So 90p per litre would become £1.45 per litre at the very minimum. This is around 15p dearer than road diesel at the moment.

 

So if the day before the November change a marina is charging £1.00 the following day it will be £1.55 minimum unless the marina drops it's profit level.

 

So the actual increase is £0.55p

[dor]

So if the day before the November change a marina is charging £1.00

 

But expect marinas to start whacking up the price of diesel a few weeks before 1st November in anticipation of everyone wanting to get their tanks full. Or am I being just a tad cynical?

[Ex- Member]

But expect marinas to start whacking up the price of diesel a few weeks before 1st November in anticipation of everyone wanting to get their tanks full. Or am I being just a tad cynical?

 

TBH I think most of them are taking advantage already. Basically their profit should be based per litre. However some may feel that if there's more work involved with the new tax system, then they might well add something to cope with any extra work they feel they have to do. There's extra paperwork involved if issuing reciepts for propulsion diesel and heating diesel. Personally I think this shouldn't add more than 1p per litre, but boaters have little choice on the canals, so human nature would suggest that hiking the prices for more profit will occur. My last post calculates that canal diesel will be 15p per litre dearer than White road diesel, however with any hiked profits by marinas, then it could easily be 20p dearer than roadside fuel. Even at 15p though and having a 300 litre fuel tank to refill. I know where I'll be getting my diesel in the future. I'm already saving up the Jerry cans

[Nickhlx]

The supplier I talked to at some length on this was quite emphatic about how it would be priced sufficiently below "Tesco diesel" to ensure there was no incentive for people to buy and lug jerry cans around and spill along canalsides.

 

It will be a new fuel, essentially low sulphur Red Diesel, of lower quality than road / white diesel, so should (must) be cheaper. I can see there is little point in having lower quality fuel priced around or higher than white diesel, else many people will certainly jerry can it to their boat, which is what they apparently are (very) worried about ( inevitable spillages)

 

Nick

[Ex- Member]

The supplier I talked to at some length on this was quite emphatic about how it would be priced sufficiently below "Tesco diesel" to ensure there was no incentive for people to buy and lug jerry cans around and spill along canalsides.

 

It will be a new fuel, essentially low sulphur Red Diesel, of lower quality than road / white diesel, so should (must) be cheaper. I can see there is little point in having lower quality fuel priced around or higher than white diesel, else many people will certainly jerry can it to their boat, which is what they apparently are (very) worried about ( inevitable spillages)

 

Nick

 

The fuel being supplied is the same as now Red diesel, just taxed heavier. It's news to me if there's a new fuel on the horizon, also how would this fit with the heating fuel requirement. Also the reduction of sulpher in diesel is supposedly the reason White road diesel is now dearer than petrol. I really can't see that a new fuel is being made available that's cheaper, if so surely it would have been available before now.