What is the point of a forum such as this?

[Greybeard]

Any boat builder worth his salt will have copious amounts of information on completed jobs they have carried out and be happy to offer contact information with former customers of theirs to back up the story they are telling. Being in business myself I can provide a long list of satisfied customers who will sing the companies praises - the ones who aren't happy.........well I've forgotten their numbers I'm afraid.

 

A question on a forum such as this asking if anyone has any experience of the builder in question will encourage people to say what they know and if their experience is not a good one then they are free to PM the person asking or suggest that they have an personal experience they are happy to share via PM. A good experience or a bad experience is still an experience. It's the outcome I'm interested in. Whether that be in PM form or open forum I don't mind.

 

It is also worth remembering that just because one person has a not so good experience of that builder it does not follow that the builder in question has to be avoided at all costs. Perhaps the person had unrealistic ideas about what was going to be achieved. Or perhaps things went a bit wonky on the job and the builder was not given the chance to put things right. That's the point. If nobody knows of the "wonky" job or how the matter was resolved how can someone get a true representation of a companies performance. Both these things happened to the business I used to be involved in (restoration of classic cars...... not boat building but remarkably similar in many ways) If anyone spoke to the customers in question you would have imagined our business was a proper fly by night operation! In fact we turned out many cars that went on to be featured in magazines or win top awards in shows.

 

It is worth remembering there are two sides to every story and to get an overview by speaking to as many former customers as possible is the way forward to getting a balanced opinion(see my response in the first paragraph}. Of course when in business the customer is always right........ but anyone who has actually been in business will have experience of the customer from hell! It is that customer who can be so potentially damaging to a business which does not necessarily deserve it. Exactly. However a bodge up would still be a bodge up but a genuine error that gets amicably resolved is still a better result, a result that will generate further business if the good word is spread.

[cheshire~rose]

There can be mitigating circumstances for jobs that go wonky and sometimes even if every effort is made to put things right the customer is still not happy.

 

a true example:

We were asked to paint a 1940's American saloon car in a candy paint. (a custom paint finish that is notoriously tricky to apply properly) Although we had ample experience of custom paint jobs which had been 100% successful using a brand of paint we were very familiar with the customer was insistant on us using a different brand.

 

We ordered the (extremely expensive) paint in from the USA according to the amounts suggested by the manufacturer.

 

We proceeded to apply the paint but by half way through it was obvious we had no where near enough to get the lovely even candy finish which was wanted. Candy paint is unstable until sealed with a clear lacquer coat. A decision was made to apply a thin lacquer coat to preserve the stability of what he had already applied so the car could be viewed in daylight and an educated decision made about the proper quantity of paint to order for the respray we would be carrying out.

 

The next day when it was dry we pushed the car out into the daylight to get a proper look at it...... just as the owner of the car turned up! Of course what he saw was his pride and joy looking a terrible streaky patchy colour with a horrible rough blow over job of lacquer on it. He was justifiably shocked! We explained what had gone wrong and that we intended to order fresh paint that day and would apply it the next week.

 

He had no confidence and chose to remove his car from our premises as it was. His decision. We painted a Cobra Replica 2 weeks later in the same paint which the owner had chosen from the empty tins from the first "wonky" job. That car went on to be featured in a national magazine with a note in the editorial mentioning it was us that did the "stunning" paintwork.

 

The customer with the American car went on to try and sue us through the courts. He lost his case. It cost him a lot of money to go elsewhere and have put right something we did wrong but he would not allow us to put right. It cost him even more to take us to court. He will never have a good thing to say about that business. That person could have done us significant damage unless people hear the other side of the story. Thankfully we had a portfolio full of good things.

 

Of course the business will never give details of unhappy customers to prospective clients...... that would be madness! so long as there are sufficient happy customers then that should be reason enough to feel some security so long as everything else stacks up.

[greywolf]

I don't like the bloke in charge of Bojitt & Leggett boatbuilders, the main bloke's got a dodgy eye and i would recommend people to steer clear. I can however recommend Ripoffe & Scarpa boatfitters as very competent craftsmen cos i have a friend who works there.

 

So you have thus gone on record as having recommended one and would not be allowed to post the other part or to be safe because you are biased not allow any of the statement. It seems that con men getaway with poor service because we cannot critisise poor workmanship .Itis the same with house builders,etc. throw a dice and hope for the best.

[Greybeard]

There can be mitigating circumstances for jobs that go wonky and sometimes even if every effort is made to put things right the customer is still not happy.

 

a true example:

We were asked to paint a 1940's American saloon car in a candy paint. (a custom paint finish that is notoriously tricky to apply properly) Although we had ample experience of custom paint jobs which had been 100% successful using a brand of paint we were very familiar with the customer was insistant on us using a different brand.

 

We ordered the (extremely expensive) paint in from the USA according to the amounts suggested by the manufacturer.

 

We proceeded to apply the paint but by half way through it was obvious we had no where near enough to get the lovely even candy finish which was wanted. Candy paint is unstable until sealed with a clear lacquer coat. A decision was made to apply a thin lacquer coat to preserve the stability of what he had already applied so the car could be viewed in daylight and an educated decision made about the proper quantity of paint to order for the respray we would be carrying out.

 

The next day when it was dry we pushed the car out into the daylight to get a proper look at it...... just as the owner of the car turned up! Of course what he saw was his pride and joy looking a terrible streaky patchy colour with a horrible rough blow over job of lacquer on it. He was justifiably shocked! We explained what had gone wrong and that we intended to order fresh paint that day and would apply it the next week.

 

He had no confidence and chose to remove his car from our premises as it was. His decision. We painted a Cobra Replica 2 weeks later in the same paint which the owner had chosen from the empty tins from the first "wonky" job. That car went on to be featured in a national magazine with a note in the editorial mentioning it was us that did the "stunning" paintwork.

 

The customer with the American car went on to try and sue us through the courts. He lost his case. It cost him a lot of money to go elsewhere and have put right something we did wrong but he would not allow us to put right. It cost him even more to take us to court. He will never have a good thing to say about that business. That person could have done us significant damage unless people hear the other side of the story. Thankfully we had a portfolio full of good things.

 

Of course the business will never give details of unhappy customers to prospective clients...... that would be madness! so long as there are sufficient happy customers then that should be reason enough to feel some security so long as everything else stacks up.

 

And that's exactly what I'm looking for.

 

A company or individual who is prepared to work with me and if it goes wrong hold their hands up and put it right - just as you tried to do with your client.

 

Your 2nd client went away happy and would have told others of his experience. The 1st one.........well it was his loss but at least you tried.

 

I would rather hear from 5 satisfied people on the grapevine rather than be given a list of 10 by a company I was considering using and that was the reason for my post.

 

I have read BSPs misfortune with an engineering company and was hoping that a few others had had some experience with them - good or bad.

 

That info would put me in a position to make my own judgement.

 

I do know from experience however that you are only as good as your last job. Do 9 good uns & 1 bad un and see which one gets the press!!!!

[Greybeard]

I don't like the bloke in charge of Bojitt & Leggett boatbuilders, the main bloke's got a dodgy eye and i would recommend people to steer clear. I can however recommend Ripoffe & Scarpa boatfitters as very competent craftsmen cos i have a friend who works there.

 

The guy with the dodgy eye can actually see round corners and used to work for Bendit & Twatit who designed the first canal cattlegrid and the machine for putting the jam in jaffa cakes.

[Tusses]

And that's exactly what I'm looking for.

 

A company or individual who is prepared to work with me and if it goes wrong hold their hands up and put it right - just as you tried to do with your client.

 

Your 2nd client went away happy and would have told others of his experience. The 1st one.........well it was his loss but at least you tried.

 

I would rather hear from 5 satisfied people on the grapevine rather than be given a list of 10 by a company I was considering using and that was the reason for my post.

 

I have read BSPs misfortune with an engineering company and was hoping that a few others had had some experience with them - good or bad.

 

That info would put me in a position to make my own judgement.

 

I do know from experience however that you are only as good as your last job. Do 9 good uns & 1 bad un and see which one gets the press!!!!

 

you want a conscientious builder

 

I am conscientious and want to learn the ropes and am currently working on a 57' trad.

 

Are you interested ?

 

if so - PM me

 

Richard

[Maverick]

That was what occurred to me after reading the topic that sparked the debate, the website was, obviously, very one sided. I have customers who would describe me with glowing praise and others who would spit blood.

 

Any deal is a relationship, something that tends to get a bit lost. And a relationship that involves 10s of thousands of pounds is bound to have a degree of high feeling which ever way it pans out.

 

What was the line of that old song about a picture paints a thousand words? Those pictures appear pretty damming evidence to me so how can it possibly be one sided? What could any boat builder say in response?

[Jon]

I have left this thread open as the comments were general, and I felt it fair to give members a chance to respond to my post. Please keep it general.

 

Thanks,

 

Jon

 

Positive experiences are a bit different. From a legal perspective, no builder will ever complain for being named as good and therefore I don't have a problem with this. I see the point that one persons bad experience is another persons good experience and vice versa, it's a difficult balancing act but the issue starts when we say XXXX boat builder is rubbish, don't use them.

 

The UK.rec group mentioned above can be added to the link directory if you so wish.

[Radiomariner]

There are ways around the issue, that hit the mark but are difficult to prove as slanderous.

I recall reading a book written by a pair of airline stewardesses many years ago.

In it, they compiled three lists:

Famous Personalities we have really enjoyed flying with...

Famous Personalities that have been OK to fly with...

Other personalities we have flown with...

 

I never heard of any law suits

 

Edited to remove repetition

Edited April 5, 2008 by Radiomariner

[Chris Pink]

.Itis the same with house builders,etc. throw a dice and hope for the best.

 

Well if that's the way you choose them you shouldn't be surprised if it goes wrong.

 

From the supplier point of view; I have yet to meet the perfect person, I am not that person, i make mistakes, it is my ability to a, admit those mistakes and b, work with the customer to rectify those mistakes on which in the long term i hope to be judged.

 

Yes the pictures are damning but the list is less so and the pictures tell no story about the relationship (or the use of the boat).

[Greybeard]

Well if that's the way you choose them you shouldn't be surprised if it goes wrong.

 

From the supplier point of view; I have yet to meet the perfect person, I am not that person, i make mistakes, it is my ability to a, admit those mistakes and b, work with the customer to rectify those mistakes on which in the long term i hope to be judged.

 

A person with the same attitude as myself. If I get it wrong at least I try and put it right.

 

I've actually generated further sales with a client by working through a 'wobble' by proving that I am sincere.................suckers. sorry slipped on key pad.

 

Yes the pictures are damning but the list is less so and the pictures tell no story about the relationship (or the use of the boat).

[smileypete]

A good way to get a reasonable recommendation for a builder/repair work is to ask someone trusted/reputable in a related trade for a recommendation.

 

cheers,

Pete.

[greywolf]

Well if that's the way you choose them you shouldn't be surprised if it goes wrong.

 

From the supplier point of view; I have yet to meet the perfect person, I am not that person, i make mistakes, it is my ability to a, admit those mistakes and b, work with the customer to rectify those mistakes on which in the long term i hope to be judged.

 

Yes the pictures are damning but the list is less so and the pictures tell no story about the relationship (or the use of the boat).

 

 

Taken out of context i think! there are few lists of bad builders around so they continue to get away with it.equally so with boat builders. i like the idea put forward about the air stewardesses book though.

[tillergirl]

Attitude is everything - go with the wrong attitude and you start on the wrong foot anyway.

 

IMO whether it be boat builders, builders, plumbers sparkies, garages its all the same. Just cos I get on well with one guy and have no complaints does'nt mean that everyone will.

[bag 'o' bones]

On the subject of naming and shaming I thought this might be of interest:

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/actionnetwork/A1183394

 

I came across it a while back while researching for my uni degree. Its one of the best explainations suitable for the layman of how to avoid defamation and libel when publishing.

 

Personally I would like to see more posts on here of shoddy workmanship so that potetial purchasers can learn from others misfourtunes.

 

BB

Edited April 5, 2008 by bag 'o' bones

[magnetman]

'what is the point of a forum such as this?' useful, sensible, informative, heated, humorous and above all relatively light hearted discussion of canal and canal boat related topics. Heavy aggrevation and personal grief is not helpful in my opinion as it will inevitably lead to communication breakdown.

[Lol]

just to get a general thing going here would it be possible for someone to come up with a definative list of all builders and the numbers of boats they have built (isnt there one in the Waterways World annual?) for the puposes of a poll then we could have a feel for satisfaction

 

I am assuming the forum system only allows one vote per person?

 

at its simplest the poll could be like those toilet things at service stations -

 

before the statisticians start I know its got problems but its just a germ of an idea?

[kawaton]

Forums can be a strong weapon when the powers that be LET it..

 

If you can be bothered to read it all

 

http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/showthread.php?t=399203

 

This linky shows what can happen if you try to rip someone off on a forum

 

http://www.nsxprime.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98489

 

this linky shows what can happen if you spam a forum

Edited April 5, 2008 by kawaton

[carlt]

Links don't work but I've seen the nsx one before. Very impressive example of the man knowing more about you than you do!

[NB Alnwick]

'what is the point of a forum such as this?' useful, sensible, informative, heated, humorous and above all relatively light hearted discussion of canal and canal boat related topics. Heavy aggrevation and personal grief is not helpful in my opinion as it will inevitably lead to communication breakdown.

 

We agree entirely! In fact, Jane went further by saying "he's a sensible chap"!