What is the point of a forum such as this?

[Maverick]

Surely the point of a boating forum is that folk with a shared interest can share their views and help each other in their chosen hobby/lifestyle.

 

To recommend to others good boat builders and fitters based on our experiences and to also warn of builders/fitters with bad reputations in order to prevent others from distress and financial losses that could have been avoided by listening to experiences of others.

 

I fully understand Jon's position on protecting himself, and in his position I too would do likewise.

 

So what can we do together as boaters to report the bad guys out there and help to protect innocent folk from loosing huge financial sums of money to dodgy builders who appear to always get away with it.

 

Newcomers to boating search the internet and find forums such as these. They then ask for help and advise in an effort to protect themselves from making costly mistakes. Perhaps someone could annonymously create 2 websites.

 

The first one we could point people too would only contain a link to the second one. Therby we are not linking to anything wrong.

 

The second one could contain information and links to reports and stories of any dodgy builders/fitters out there. As no-one on this forum has directly added a link to that particular site then we have done nothing wrong.

[tomsk]

Surely the point of a boating forum is that folk with a shared interest can share their views and help each other in their chosen hobby/lifestyle.

 

To recommend to others good boat builders and fitters based on our experiences and to also warn of builders/fitters with bad reputations in order to prevent others from distress and financial losses that could have been avoided by listening to experiences of others.

 

I fully understand Jon's position on protecting himself, and in his position I too would do likewise.

 

So what can we do together as boaters to report the bad guys out there and help to protect innocent folk from loosing huge financial sums of money to dodgy builders who appear to always get away with it.

 

Newcomers to boating search the internet and find forums such as these. They then ask for help and advise in an effort to protect themselves from making costly mistakes. Perhaps someone could annonymously create 2 websites.

 

The first one we could point people too would only contain a link to the second one. Therby we are not linking to anything wrong.

 

The second one could contain information and links to reports and stories of any dodgy builders/fitters out there. As no-one on this forum has directly added a link to that particular site then we have done nothing wrong.

 

 

Leave it Iceman, or whoever you are....

Edited April 4, 2008 by tomsk

[Gary Peacock]

The problem is that right or wrong if you pass comment not even judgement on any other person or business and you are identifiable you have to be willing to deal with the consequences.

 

Most people on this forum are very anonymous.

 

The problem for Jon is that if this forum irritates people or businesses the web operates in such away that they can express their displeasure and vent their threats fairly quickly to him.

 

When I piss someone off on the forum I get a much quicker effect in the form of irate phone calls and that's the downside of not being anonymous.

 

Unfortunately even though it is good fun to get your teeth into boatbuilders and the standards of their products etc without the weight of a expert legal team the likes of which the BBC's programme Watchdog have then you are very likely one way or another to get your fingers burned.

 

The only way you can really discuss sensitive issues is via PM/email or via a link to a blog that you are prepared to take responsibility for the posts and comments on. (You can set up a very anonymous blog but in the event of you becoming a source of irritation the host will simply delete the account.)

Edited April 4, 2008 by Gary Peacock

[lymmranger]

The other and most important point is that of apathy........

 

happy people rarely comment

 

unhappy people are most vocal

 

the discussion that ensues (sp?) does not always tell the whole truth

 

.........this particular forum has in the past, allowed some very biased posters to write just about anything they like. I think on the whole censure is very rarely exercised.

 

Please note this comment is NOT directed at anyone in particular!

[Jon]

Boat Builders are a relatively small topic compared to everything else to do with Canals and Inland Waterways that get discussed on this forum.

 

I agree that people should be aware of issues so that they can make the same decision and I would encourage these people who have legitimate problems to make them public in the own way (ie their own website). Unfortutately I am never party to any contract, and therefore I am very exposed when people start using the forums to say negative things about their experiences. Companies have reputations to protect and when the money inolved in in the hundreds of thousands then one public comment could be very costly to the builder, so they are very keen to remove such comments. As a result this is the only topic that I will not allow on here and I will not be changed on this stance. Sorry.

 

Individuals who are already party to a contract with a boat builder and have a legitimate gripe atleast know the full circumstance so as to present a case should legal action be taken and they stand a much better chance of being able to defend themselves.

 

Maverick, if you wish to set up your own forum to dicuss such things then feel free, but I feel that despite your best intentions, you will soon find yourself swamped with angry company directors threatening legal action against you. The grapevine doesn't take long to make them aware!.

 

Moving to suggestions...

[tillergirl]

Like stepping in a minefield IMO.

 

One mans caviar is another man's poison.

[BlueStringPudding]

Like stepping in a minefield IMO.

 

One mans caviar is another man's poison.

 

I for one, hate caviar.

 

Although perhaps one man's caviar is another man's poisson?

Edited April 4, 2008 by BlueStringPudding

[Chris J W]

I for one, hate caviar.

 

Although perhaps one man's caviar is another man's poisson?

 

A bell-hop hops through the VP "Coat for Miss BSP! Coat for Miss BSP!"

[NB Alnwick]

Moving to suggestions...

 

Jon's quote clipped for brevity - we know what we must do.

 

Nevertheless, this forum has a very high profile on Google and it is understandable that many people arrive here because they are thinking of buying a boat for themselves. In this I think we can offer useful advice without mentioning individual boat-builders or brokers. Buying a narrowboat can be a very risky business and we have a duty to help our fellow boaters avoid being ripped off through sub-standard workmanship or out-and-out cowboys.

 

The first piece of advice I would offer is that: When discussing the purchase of a boat with a builder or broker ask if they can put you in touch with some of their previous customers - this can be done by mutual consent and without breaching the Data Protection Act. If a boat builder or broker is reluctant to share such information - he may have something to hide.

 

Before buying Alnwick we spent many happy hours with the builder and this included looking at examples and detailed reports of other work that he had done. We also spent many enjoyable days talking to his customers who had bought similar boats - they were all very friendly and their hospitality extended to inviting us aboard and showing us round.

 

Now, three years later, we do the same and our boat builder has just sent another of his prospective buyers along to see us and specifically to see the Kelvin K3 in action.

[Jon]

Yep, general boat building / how to choose a boat builder is absolutely fine. In fact, if anyone with any experience wants to write an article about it then I would be more than happy to publish it. It is naming and shaming that causes the problems.

[Yoda]

So if you want to name and shame, write a list of boat builders and leave a gap for the one to be shamed.

[Jon]

No, let me make this absolutely clear, we will not be entering into naming and shaming on this site. No argument will change my view on this and any posts made in this manner will be deleted. The risks are too high and I don't have time to deal with the consequences.

[Yoda]

No, let me make this absolutely clear, we will not be entering into naming and shaming on this site. No argument will change my view on this and any posts made in this manner will be deleted. The risks are too high and I don't have time to deal with the consequences.

 

I know I was somewhat joking but there are many ways. We do not want any problems on the forum and any legal challenges so things must be delt with quickly and fairly so that no one gets hurt.

Edited April 4, 2008 by Yoda

[Chris-B]

No, let me make this absolutely clear, we will not be entering into naming and shaming on this site. No argument will change my view on this and any posts made in this manner will be deleted. The risks are too high and I don't have time to deal with the consequences.

 

 

 

It's Jon's site...he make the rules ( few that they are)

 

If to keep the forum open to all it means we cannot name and shame ON OPEN FORUM then fair enough, there is always PM,s and other methods of taking to people

 

Chris

[greywolf]

Equally then you can not praise builders or companies which have given good service because the person doing the praising may be the one off, and the next person may be ripped off and blame the forum, otherwise i was going to suggest a list of positive feed back on boat builders with the person giving the positive comment name so they can be responsible? Any name not on there would not be would simply indicate that nobody had written in about them but would not indicate criticism of that builder.

[Chris-B]

Equally then you can not praise builders or companies which have given good service because the person doing the praising may be the one off, and the next person may be ripped off and blame the forum, otherwise i was going to suggest a list of positive feed back on boat builders with the person giving the positive comment name so they can be responsible? Any name not on there would not be would simply indicate that nobody had written in about them but would not indicate criticism of that builder.

 

 

There is a very fine line of distinction between the two Greywolf

 

I for one am very pleased about the guys who have just done the steelwork on Baldock , this I had mentioned in a previous posting BUT I did not mention their name. If anybody from the forum was to ask who I would quite happly recommend them but not on open forum( as I have done to another member alrready ). Equally I spoke to another poster yesterday who is looking for a new boat and gave her my "personal" recommendations. these are soley in my opinion .

 

As Lise and I have found to our own cost there are some VERY dodgy builders out there but I do not feel that naming and shaming on this site is the correct way to go with Jon's implied liabilites.

 

Chris

[Maverick]

Ok we cant name and shame the bad builders but can we then have a pinned list of reputable builders that have received verified good feedback from customers.

 

As forum members many appear to know other members on the network. By verifiying that a boat owner is genuine (details of how to can be ironed out later) it would appear perfectly acceptable to add reccomended builders to a list.

 

Newcomers can then view the list and make their own informed choice as to whom they may wish to select to build their boat. We would not have made any personal reccomendations merely pointed them in the right direction.

[Chris-B]

Ok we cant name and shame the bad builders but can we then have a pinned list of reputable builders that have received verified good feedback from customers.

 

As forum members many appear to know other members on the network. By verifiying that a boat owner is genuine (details of how to can be ironed out later) it would appear perfectly acceptable to add reccomended builders to a list.

 

Newcomers can then view the list and make their own informed choice as to whom they may wish to select to build their boat. We would not have made any personal reccomendations merely pointed them in the right direction.

 

Snipped

Equally then you can not praise builders or companies which have given good service because the person doing the praising may be the one off, and the next person may be ripped off and blame the forum,

 

This is one are of greyness.. Lise and I worked very closely with the guys who have just done the work on Baldock, we ended up with a first rate job EXACTLY how we wanted it, on budget and on time.

 

However is MR XYZ took that recommendation from here and went to the same company and did not have a fixed idea/eye for the job/costing/time frame/ Attitude then it may have turned out completly different...

 

You see my viewpoint>>>>>>

 

Chris

[Chris Pink]

Ok we cant name and shame the bad builders but can we then have a pinned list of reputable builders that have received verified good feedback from customers.

 

As forum members many appear to know other members on the network. By verifiying that a boat owner is genuine (details of how to can be ironed out later) it would appear perfectly acceptable to add reccomended builders to a list.

 

Newcomers can then view the list and make their own informed choice as to whom they may wish to select to build their boat. We would not have made any personal reccomendations merely pointed them in the right direction.

 

I think as a adjunct to all the research you should do before parting with wedge, it's not a bad idea to trawl a forum and PM members who have had boats built at the places mentioned. Or, as i have seen , post a question "have you had a boat built by x". Silence on the forum and messages would tell loads. It would be completely daft to commission a boat without quite a lot of examination of past boata built and their owners.

 

not to say there's not lots of daft people about, mind.

 

Slander can only happen when 3 people are present, a conversation between 2 people does not come under such law.

[smileypete]

Hi,

 

Any negative experiences with boatbuilders can be posted to the public newsgroup group uk.rec.waterways, this can be done via a Google/Gmail account.

 

A link to the group (not the article itself) could then be posted here.

 

Unless the boatbuilder replies to the article on the group itself however, it's always going to be one side of the story.

 

cheers,

Pete.

Edited April 4, 2008 by smileypete

[Chris Pink]

Unless the boatbuilder replies to the article on the group itself, it's always going to be one side of the story.

 

That was what occurred to me after reading the topic that sparked the debate, the website was, obviously, very one sided. I have customers who would describe me with glowing praise and others who would spit blood.

 

Any deal is a relationship, something that tends to get a bit lost. And a relationship that involves 10s of thousands of pounds is bound to have a degree of high feeling which ever way it pans out.

[BlueStringPudding]

Ok we cant name and shame the bad builders but can we then have a pinned list of reputable builders that have received verified good feedback from customers.

 

As forum members many appear to know other members on the network. By verifiying that a boat owner is genuine (details of how to can be ironed out later) it would appear perfectly acceptable to add reccomended builders to a list.

 

Newcomers can then view the list and make their own informed choice as to whom they may wish to select to build their boat. We would not have made any personal reccomendations merely pointed them in the right direction.

 

 

But one person's good boat builder might be someone else's nightmare.

 

I'm sure other purveyors of a certain Sawley engineering company I have had a bad experience with have found them reliable, honest, efficient, professional and skillful, but -

 

Nah! Who am I trying to kid!?

[Greybeard]

Hi.

 

Bit of a concern reading this.........you can guess where I'm thinking of mooring and who I was going to have some work carried out by.

 

Right then anyone know of a boat yard or person that can be relied on to carry out engine servicing and some electrical commissioning in the Derby area.

 

Also reblacking/anodes imminent and a possible full paint job next year.

 

Sorry BSP but I need to know if you were just plain unlucky or if they have a history of not performing. So if anyone else has a different story (perhaps you'd better pm me as BSP doesn't sound very impressed and I don't want to rub it in)

 

Thanks

[magnetman]

I don't like the bloke in charge of Bojitt & Leggett boatbuilders, the main bloke's got a dodgy eye and i would recommend people to steer clear. I can however recommend Ripoffe & Scarpa boatfitters as very competent craftsmen cos i have a friend who works there.

[cheshire~rose]

Any boat builder worth his salt will have copious amounts of information on completed jobs they have carried out and be happy to offer contact information with former customers of theirs to back up the story they are telling.

 

A question on a forum such as this asking if anyone has any experience of the builder in question will encourage people to say what they know and if their experience is not a good one then they are free to PM the person asking or suggest that they have an personal experience they are happy to share via PM.

 

It is also worth remembering that just because one person has a not so good experience of that builder it does not follow that the builder in question has to be avoided at all costs. Perhaps the person had unrealistic ideas about what was going to be achieved. Or perhaps things went a bit wonky on the job and the builder was not given the chance to put things right. Both these things happened to the business I used to be involved in (restoration of classic cars...... not boat building but remarkably similar in many ways) If anyone spoke to the customers in question you would have imagined our business was a proper fly by night operation! In fact we turned out many cars that went on to be featured in magazines or win top awards in shows.

 

It is worth remembering there are two sides to every story and to get an overview by speaking to as many former customers as possible is the way forward to getting a balanced opinion. Of course when in business the customer is always right........ but anyone who has actually been in business will have experience of the customer from hell! It is that customer who can be so potentially damaging to a business which does not necessarily deserve it.