Review my fitout plan - Lights

[Gybe Ho]

Comments welcome?

 

Possibly too elaborate?

Can 3 switches control a single light as shown in the bedroom?

Is the dinette under illuminated?

Would you fit an engine bay light or external socket for Christmas lights or external main entrance light?

 

Notes:

• I square = 1ft LOA
• LOA 60.5ft
• The dashed connections show multi switch circuits
• Cluster of 7 light switches on the wall between dinette and saloon = ouch

[haggis]

I'll leave the technical folks to answer your questions but one thing I would recommend is some form of external lighting at whichever end is your main entrance. Nothing worse than coming back from the pub and can't see the keyhole and you forgot the torch. We use a light (attached to the underside of the cratch board) which has a motion sensor. Also, when you get inside the boat in the dark you want a light switch within reach. On Kelpie it is a few yards inside and you have to get past a chair to get to it. Not a good idea when you have to go down a couple of steps in the dark. 

You may already have those in your plans but I am not good at reading diagrams with lots of type  🙂 

[Gybe Ho]

47 minutes ago, haggis said:

I'll leave the technical folks to answer your questions but one thing I would recommend is some form of external lighting at whichever end is your main entrance. Nothing worse than coming back from the pub and can't see the keyhole and you forgot the torch. We use a light (attached to the underside of the cratch board) which has a motion sensor. Also, when you get inside the boat in the dark you want a light switch within reach. On Kelpie it is a few yards inside and you have to get past a chair to get to it. Not a good idea when you have to go down a couple of steps in the dark. 

You may already have those in your plans but I am not good at reading diagrams with lots of type  🙂 

 

Thankyou. An external main entrance light was on the maybe list, now it sounds like it is an essential. Not thought of a sensor, good idea. My main entrance will be through the cruiser stern which means the light will need to hang off the pramhood frame.

 

I have the internal entrance light-switch issue covered, that first switch will be in-reach as soon as the hatch is pushed back.

[Tonka]

Of course you want one in the engine bay and one near the weedhatch. 

[nicknorman]

I really, really HATE "in your face" lighting. It is horrible! But I also have to concede that sometimes it is necessary eg when reading, eating, doing some work etc. So on our boat, we have a large number of small overhead lights such as you have shown. We rarely use them except when cooking, when eating, or when doing something that requires good lighting. Most of the time we use the under-gunnel LED tape that runs the length of the living area from galley past dinette to saloon area (all open-plan) and also under the kitchen worktop. This gives lovely soothing indirect light not "in your face" and bonus - it is RGB LED tape so we can have whatever colour we like, warm fireglow orange in the dead of winter, off-white in summer and wild purple for "Strictly" etc etc. Dimmable and controllable from mobile phone app, all very cheap.

 

I now have put LED tape under the gunnels in the bedroom too, but that is just warm white - we are not that kinky - but it is dimmable. Most of our overhead spots are dimmable too, but that was only easy because we use a digital DC distribution system with built in dimming function.

 

Outside we have LED tape under the gunnels around the well deck (which is our entrance), that can be short-range remote controlled via a cheap keyfob thing from Maplin (RIP).

 

You see a number of boats with harsh overhead cold white lighting. I feel sorry for them, they  must be miserable.

Edited August 29 by nicknorman

[David Mack]

1 hour ago, Gybe Ho said:

Can 3 switches control a single light as shown in the bedroom?

Yes. You need an intermediate switch in addition to two two way switches. This is how you wire it up (drawn for mains lighting but equally applicable for 12Vdc apart from the wire colours and use of twin and earth). You can actually have as many intermediate switches as you like for multiple control locations.

From 

https://www.sparkyfacts.co.uk/Wiring-Diagrams-Three-Way-Lighting-Circuit.php

[hider]

7 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Yes. You need an intermediate switch in addition to two two way switches. This is how you wire it up (drawn for mains lighting but equally applicable for 12Vdc apart from the wire colours and use of twin and earth). You can actually have as many intermediate switches as you like for multiple control locations.

From 

https://www.sparkyfacts.co.uk/Wiring-Diagrams-Three-Way-Lighting-Circuit.php

But of course you will have to source DC rated switches for them all as AC ones will arc and burn contacts. They will be expensive.

Does anyone think this is getting over complicated for a small boat?

 

There was an exam question years ago.

"Describe the simplest economical installation that will provide a light on every landing in a square emergency stair shaft in a 10 story building so that all the stair lights can be switched on or off from any landing."

 

[nicknorman]

This is what the under gunnel tape looks like.

 

[Tonka]

I fitted a LED light in a cupboard. It had its own push switch fitted to it but I fitted a switch to the outside of the cupboard. Came to test it and everytime the power is removed from the unit by the switch it appears to have a no volts release and you have to use the switch on the unit after turning the outer switch on.

Beware

[Tony Brooks]

22 minutes ago, hider said:

But of course you will have to source DC rated switches for them all as AC ones will arc and burn contacts

 

Except that such AC switches have been shown in another recent topic and experience to have an adequate life with several amps of inductive load. Not the very few amps of an LED lamp. I don't know enough to say there is no inductive load in the LED electronics, but if there is, I doubt it is much. A difference between theory and practice, I suspect.

[nicknorman]

1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Except that such AC switches have been shown in another recent topic and experience to have an adequate life with several amps of inductive load. Not the very few amps of an LED lamp. I don't know enough to say there is no inductive load in the LED electronics, but if there is, I doubt it is much. A difference between theory and practice, I suspect.

I think you are right - a domestic light switch would be fine in practice. But they are very ugly and not in keeping with a narrowboat interior so I wouldn’t use them for that reason.

[Tony Brooks]

51 minutes ago, nicknorman said:

I think you are right - a domestic light switch would be fine in practice. But they are very ugly and not in keeping with a narrowboat interior so I wouldn’t use them for that reason.

 

Especially the way that boat is shaping up, but there are "designer" switches that may suit the OP, but I don't know if they include intermediate switches.

[Gybe Ho]

2 hours ago, Tonka said:

Of course you want one in the engine bay and one near the weedhatch. 

 

I do not expect to cruise at night. Is the recommendation for a weedhatch compartment light because a misaligned or forgotten cover replacement might sink a narrowboat?

 

Since posting the diagram earlier I have decided to drop the spotlight in the electrics cabinet (first left from the entrance) when I realized that any serious work in the cabinet first requires turning the master switch off.

[hider]

Any solutions to the exam question yet?

[nicknorman]

24 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

I do not expect to cruise at night. Is the recommendation for a weedhatch compartment light because a misaligned or forgotten cover replacement might sink a narrowboat?

 

Since posting the diagram earlier I have decided to drop the spotlight in the electrics cabinet (first left from the entrance) when I realized that any serious work in the cabinet first requires turning the master switch off.

I can’t see a need for a weed hatch compartment light. But cruising at night is lovely! Don’t rule it out!

[Peanut]

40 minutes ago, hider said:

Any solutions to the exam question yet?

Loop in all the lights line and neutral, do not conect line to supply, run single pos looped in to all switches. Switch line to each local light fitting. Probably breaks all umpteenth edition wiring regs.

[Ewan123]

1 hour ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

I do not expect to cruise at night.

 

You might find you have a few cruises in winter that unexpectedly end up in the dark. It's a lovely thing to do intentionally as well! Cruising at night would be a good time to avoid lights around the stern anyway, you want your night vision relatively unspoiled.

 

Personally I just use a torch with a magnetic base positioned wherever necessary if I'm in the engine bay/weedhatch in poor light conditions. Maybe a headtorch for actually seeing down into the weedhatch if needed.

[jonathanA]

4 hours ago, hider said:

Does anyone think this is getting over complicated for a small boat?

Does anyone else think ops budget  will short by about £219,995 ? 😂

[Peanut]

5 minutes ago, jonathanA said:

Does anyone else think ops budget  will short by about £219,995 ? 😂

You cynic, the OP is capable and confident, and has it all sorted, with a complete set of dawings, costings for all materials, fixtures amd fittings. A Gantt chart of work to complete, and an understanding of constriction methods. It will be completed, on time and under budget. The chosen contractor will be delighted to have won the contract.

[Gybe Ho]

6 hours ago, nicknorman said:

I really, really HATE "in your face" lighting. It is horrible!

 

 

I agree. Some narrowboat lighting is based on a grid of spotlights along the whole length of the accommodation and designed to achieve a uniform lumens intensity. I want to avoid this with just enough spots that are complemented by extra more subtle lighting. Before uploading my lighting plan I dropped two spots in the galley and can remove others as suggested by the forum panel . My intension is to design the lighting for the saloon so that the overhead spots are rarely used.

 

Re. under gunnel strip lights, I initially ruled these out because I was put off by examples where the strips are turned up to maximum level in a florescent colour. I want to achieve the same backkground ambient lighting effect that you show in your photo, just not sure of the implementation detail yet.

 

Given your preference for subtle lighting what do you think of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=183tFqCGLCk&t=240s 🙃

 

2 hours ago, Ewan123 said:

 

You might find you have a few cruises in winter that unexpectedly end up in the dark. It's a lovely thing to do intentionally as well! Cruising at night would be a good time to avoid lights around the stern anyway, you want your night vision relatively unspoiled.

 

 

I can see the attraction particularly in a serial hybrid, that'll spook a few liveaboards as they sense a dark silent presence on the water. I always wanted an excuse to buy a night sight. 

5 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

Except that such AC switches have been shown in another recent topic and experience to have an adequate life with several amps of inductive load. Not the very few amps of an LED lamp. I don't know enough to say there is no inductive load in the LED electronics, but if there is, I doubt it is much. A difference between theory and practice, I suspect.

 

The largest LED lighting load would be the 4 spots in the galley = 1.8w x 4 @ 24v.

 

My intuitive hunch is this is not a sparkly/archy load as the DC contact closes. I will do further research following your caution.

6 hours ago, David Mack said:

Yes. You need an intermediate switch in addition to two two way switches.

 

 

Ok I might have to buy some wago connectors and play circuit design until I get my 3-switch eureka moment. I have the winter to learn ferule crimping and heat shrinking.

Edited August 29 by Gybe Ho

[nicknorman]

39 minutes ago, Gybe Ho said:

 

I agree. Some narrowboat lighting is based on a grid of spotlights along the whole length of the accommodation and designed to achieve a uniform lumens intensity. I want to avoid this with just enough spots that are complemented by extra more subtle lighting. Before uploading my lighting plan I dropped two spots in the galley and can remove others as suggested by the forum panel . My intension is to design the lighting for the saloon so that the overhead spots are rarely used.

 

Re. under gunnel strip lights, I initially ruled these out because I was put of by examples where the strips are turned up to maximum level in a florescent colour. I want to achieve the same backkground ambient lighting effect that you show in your photo, just not sure of the implementation detail yet.

 

Given your preference for subtle lighting what do you think of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=183tFqCGLCk&t=240s 🙃

 

 

We can do fluorescent colours too!

 

 

But even then, with no visible light source it is very relaxing.

 

Edited August 29 by nicknorman

[Ronaldo47]

6 hours ago, hider said:

But of course you will have to source DC rated switches for them all as AC ones will arc and burn contacts. They will be expensive.

Does anyone think this is getting over complicated for a small boat?

 

There was an exam question years ago.

"Describe the simplest economical installation that will provide a light on every landing in a square emergency stair shaft in a 10 story building so that all the stair lights can be switched on or off from any landing."

 

Fit a pull switch to the ceiling at the top of the stairs, and attach a cord or chain long enough to reach the bottom of the stairs.  This assumes that the dimensions of the square staircase are small enough to reach the cord if hanging centrally, or else arrange the cord  to one side so as to be  accessible without stretching too far.

 

We had a similar arrangement in the 1950's when we lived in an upstairs flat of a 2-storey dwelling  where the only switch was on the upstairs landing. In order to provide  power for the transformer of our new electric bell, Dad fitted a double BC  adaptor of the type that people used to use then to run stuff like a radio or iron from a light socket,  and still allow the light to be switched by its pull cord. It worked very well, but of course that was only two storeys. 

Edited August 29 by Ronaldo47
typos

[MtB]

5 hours ago, nicknorman said:

This is what the under gunnel tape looks like.

 

It's 'gunwale', Shirley!

 

But that aside I tried the self-adhesive tape LED strips about ten years ago and they all came unstuck after about six weeks and fell down. 

 

Annoying beyond all reason! 

 

 

[nicknorman]

17 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

It's 'gunwale', Shirley!

 

But that aside I tried the self-adhesive tape LED strips about ten years ago and they all came unstuck after about six weeks and fell down. 

 

Annoying beyond all reason! 

 

 

I think it is gun wall, but since we have no guns I feel entitled to shorten it is whatever way I feel like. There are various options!

 

We have the electrics running in plastic box-section trunking under the GUNNELS and the LED tape is stuck to that, a nice flat smooth surface. It’s lasted 11 years so far. Maybe if you stuck the tape directly to wood it would fall off after a while. 

[Gybe Ho]

1 hour ago, nicknorman said:

We can do fluorescent colours too!

 

 

Whatever it takes to persuade Santa to visit.