Let'splay 'Escape from Yorkshire'

[IanD]

26 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The salary of the CEO of the National Trust is £209k and a income of £680m

 

The salary of the CEO of the RSPB is £150k on a income of £157m

 

Random CEO salaries

 

The Diabetes Society £75,000

Guide Dogs for the Blind £90,000

St Johns Ambulance £85,000

Worldwide Fund For Nature £90,000

Oxfam £75,000 (Income of £189m)

Cancer Research £140,000 (income of £305m)

You're picking examples -- not at random! -- to try and make your point, there as just as many (or more) showing just the opposite.

 

For the top 100 charities on the list --with many familiar names! -- the median CEO pay was £205k; the lowest was around £150k, 21 were paid more than £300k. Parry was on £233k.

 

For those 100 charities the mean number of employees on £60k+ was 84. For CART it was 87.

 

So the claims that Parry is overpaid or CART have more highly-paid employees compared to other similar charities are both shown to be wrong, according to actual numbers... 🙂 

Edited May 8 by IanD

[Alan de Enfield]

13 minutes ago, IanD said:

So the claims that Parry is overpaid or CART have more highly-paid employees compared to other similar charities are both shown to be wrong, according to actual numbers.

 

But you are not looking at 'similar charities' that it why my 1st comparison was with the NT.

 

Just taking the top 100 you are looking at all markets - no similaritities.

 

What is the CEO of Tesla salary, what is the CEO of a £100m engineering firm, what is the salary of a CEO of a merchant bank, what is the salary of the CEO of Save the Children..

 

If you want to claim you are comparing 'similar charities' at least make some effort to find reasonably similar examples.

[DandV]

4 hours ago, IanD said:

 

Because it was all over-enthusiastic pie-in-the-sky bullox driven by a government who wanted to get CART off their books and naive (but well-intentioned) management who thought they could find magic money trees where none had existed before -- like the "Friends" scheme, and others where the future income looked bigger when viewed through rose-tinted glasses.

 

The fact that none of this turned out to be true shouldn't come as any surprise, it's easy to come up with schemes which are supposed to raise lots of money which come crashing down when faced with reality, startups and companies make the same mistake all the time.

 

So from that point of view the over-optimistic CART management (and government) at formation were to blame. But it's difficult to see how any different management could have done much better in reality afterwards, or why replacing Parry and co. will make the situation any better today, because you can't get blood out of a stone.

 

It's easy to be boosterish and handwave about "possibilities" and "potential", it's far more difficult to actually deliver on this -- as CART (and Boris...) have found... 😞

Well nobody was going to be offered inaugural management position, or even any subsequential one, if they point out the blindingly obvious.

1/ That golden donation money trees are as mythical as unicorns on sunny uplands.

2/ Stabilising and maintaining an increasingly geriatric network, and one with significantly increasing demands, including climate change, would require funding levels distinctly  in excess of general rates of inflation. 

 

 CART management are also  incredibly constrained in their submissions to government in case they provoke retaliatory funding reductions.

They will be very well aware of threats made by government politicians to both the BBC, and various NHS employees, if they become overly critical of  government. 

 

[IanD]

23 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

But you are not looking at 'similar charities' that it why my 1st comparison was with the NT.

 

Just taking the top 100 you are looking at all markets - no similaritities.

 

What is the CEO of Tesla salary, what is the CEO of a £100m engineering firm, what is the salary of a CEO of a merchant bank, what is the salary of the CEO of Save the Children..

 

If you want to claim you are comparing 'similar charities' at least make some effort to find reasonably similar examples.

 

None of your examples there are charities, apart from Save the Children. What from the list do you count as "similar", if you don't want to include all types of charity?

 

Here are some "general" charities, both above and below CART in the table:

 

#19 Consumer's Association £102M £335k 182

#22 Leverhulme Trust £112M £295k 3

#29 CRUK £656M £256k 223

#30 Shaw Trust £206M £255k 111

#34 Charities Aid Foundation £614M £254k 44

#37 Save the Children £900M £240k 439

#38 Royal Horticultural Society £102M £235k 45

#40 CART £216M £233k 87

#46 Change Grow Live £219M £215k 91

#49 Turning Point £128M £205k 46

#52 Barnardos £296M £205k 56

#55 NT £681M £196k 130

#56 Zoological Society £67M £195k 48

#58 Mencap £220M £194k 45

#60 British Heart Foundation £336M £189k 88

 

CART still doesn't stand out as paying Parry more or having more highly-paid employees than other similar-sized vaguely-similar charities.

 

 

Edited May 8 by IanD

[Alan de Enfield]

9 hours ago, IanD said:

What from the list do you count as "similar", if you don't want to include all types of charity?

 

My reply gave a very good example (which I specifically quoted)

 

 

10 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

The salary of the CEO of the National Trust is £209k and a income of £680m

 

 

 

The NT have historic buildings, waterways etc much as C&RT.

 

Thier income is 4x C&RTs yet the CEO has a salary ~10% less than C&RTs CEO

Edited May 9 by Alan de Enfield

[Mike Todd]

18 hours ago, dmr said:

Thats a nasty stoppage down on the K&A, Mr Parry has really messed up there 😀.

 

But returning to Yorkshire, CRT did not handle the problems with Lock 8 on the Rochdale too well, it was on the stoppage lost for last winter but got cancelled and they should have known it was pretty urgent. The latest stoppage is a failed cill and there is just not enough money about to keep renewing cills as a part of preventative maintainance, can't really blame CRT. There are at least two boats currently going over the Rochdale who are absolutely clueless and causing problems as they go, money is tight and many boaters are really not helping the situation.

 

Yes they do, straight down the Kennet and onto the Thames, a bit of flow means they get there even quicker 😀.

I am not sure how you reckon that Mr Parry can do anything about flood waters . . . .

[dmr]

2 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

I am not sure how you reckon that Mr Parry can do anything about flood waters . . . .

Do note trhe Smiley.

[IanD]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

My reply gave a very good example (which I specifically quoted)

 

The NT have historic buildings, waterways etc much as C&RT.

 

Thier income is 4x C&RTs yet the CEO has a salary ~10% less than C&RTs CEO

 

And I can just as easily pick another example where the CEO pay is much larger relative to charity income than CART. Cherry-picking doesn't make for a valid argument, which is why I gave a dozen examples with CEO pay both above and below Parry's -- and that's why I say that neither Parry's pay or the "number of highly-paid bods" are out of line with other charities.

 

"We could be like the NT" is where CART and other people saying "I could do much better with fundraising" fall over, because it ignores the huge differences between the NT and CART as far as income is concerned. The NT owns a large number of historic properties which charge significant entrance fees to huge numbers of visitors to raise money, which CART can't do. In addition they can offer discounts on these fees (or free entry) to NT members, which is why almost 10% of the UK population are paying members, and their membership fees make up a big chunk of NT income. People aren't stupid, they support the NT not just because it owns a lot of highly-appreciated national treasures but because they get something significant back in return.

 

This isn't going to work for CART either, partly because they are understandably underappreciated compared to the NT but also because CART can't offer any significant benefit for being a "Friend" -- so it's hardly surprising that this didn't work as expected by those wearing rose-tinted glasses.

 

13 hours ago, nbfiresprite said:

Not as expensive as using hired contractors who spin out a job to charge more.

Is that how CART contractors really work, cost-plus by-the-day rather than fixed-price? Facts please, not speculation... 😉 

 

If so there's no incentive to keep costs down and work efficiently and quickly, in fact just the opposite -- like Boeing compared to SpaceX.

 

Very few commercial contracts are open-ended cost-plus/day-rate nowadays for exactly this reason, so I'd be surprised if CARTs were -- and if they are, they clearly shouldn't be, since this destroys one of the biggest reasons for using contractors... 😞 

Edited May 9 by IanD

[Orwellian]

20 minutes ago, IanD said:

The NT owns a large number of historic properties which charge significant entrance fees to huge numbers of visitors to raise money, which CART can't do. In addition they can offer discounts on these fees (or free entry) to NT members, which is why almost 10% of the UK population are paying members, and their membership fees make up a big chunk of NT income. People aren't stupid, they support the NT not just because it owns a lot of highly-appreciated national treasures but because they get something significant back in return.

 

This isn't going to work for CART either, partly because they are understandably underappreciated compared to the NT but also because CART can't offer any significant benefit for being a "Friend"

I couldn't agree more and appointing new Directors, staff or contractors will not alter that fundamental fact.

[Victor Vectis]

13 hours ago, IanD said:

IIRC Parry's salary is relatively low compared to CEOs of other similar-sized charities/organisations -- again, anyone got any actual numbers?

A classmate from schooldays, all the way through from infants up to state grammar that went comprehensive, recently retired as CEO of a water utilities company.

His final salary package was £2.8m. This included performance bonuses.

The company are well known for pouring sh1t onto the beaches at Blackpool and into Morcambe Bay.

Edited May 9 by Victor Vectis

[IanD]

3 minutes ago, Victor Vectis said:

A classmate from schooldays, all the way through from infants up to state grammar that went comprehensive, recently retired as CEO of a water utilities company.

His final salary package was £2.8m. This included performance bonuses.

The company are well known for pouring sh1t onto the beaches at Blackpool and into Morcambe Bay.

Hardly a fair comparison though -- there are lots of vastly overpaid CEOs in privatised water companies just like many others, the comparison for CART should be with other charities.

[Victor Vectis]

Fairy nuff.

[Midnight]

8 hours ago, IanD said:

 

And I can just as easily pick another example where the CEO pay is much larger relative to charity income than CART. Cherry-picking doesn't make for a valid argument, which is why I gave a dozen examples with CEO pay both above and below Parry's -- and that's why I say that neither Parry's pay or the "number of highly-paid bods" are out of line with other charities.

 

"We could be like the NT" is where CART and other people saying "I could do much better with fundraising" fall over, because it ignores the huge differences between the NT and CART as far as income is concerned. The NT owns a large number of historic properties which charge significant entrance fees to huge numbers of visitors to raise money, which CART can't do. In addition they can offer discounts on these fees (or free entry) to NT members, which is why almost 10% of the UK population are paying members, and their membership fees make up a big chunk of NT income. People aren't stupid, they support the NT not just because it owns a lot of highly-appreciated national treasures but because they get something significant back in return.

 

This isn't going to work for CART either, partly because they are understandably underappreciated compared to the NT but also because CART can't offer any significant benefit for being a "Friend" -- so it's hardly surprising that this didn't work as expected by those wearing rose-tinted glasses.

 

Is that how CART contractors really work, cost-plus by-the-day rather than fixed-price? Facts please, not speculation... 😉 

 

If so there's no incentive to keep costs down and work efficiently and quickly, in fact just the opposite -- like Boeing compared to SpaceX.

 

Very few commercial contracts are open-ended cost-plus/day-rate nowadays for exactly this reason, so I'd be surprised if CARTs were -- and if they are, they clearly shouldn't be, since this destroys one of the biggest reasons for using contractors... 😞 

 

Who gives a toss what Parry is paid the man has failed and therefore should be retired 'to spend more time with the family'.

I can't think of another job were you can fail to meet objectives, fiddle the accounts and fail to deliver on promises made and still keep your job. 

 

 

Edited May 9 by Midnight

[Jon57]

I've escaped. But will I get back. 😁

[Orwellian]

1 minute ago, Midnight said:

 

Who gives a toss what Parry is paid the man has failed and therefore should be retired 'to spend more time with the family'.

I can't think of another job were you can fail to meet objectives, fiddle the accounts and fail to deliver on promises made. 

 

 

Really? Try harder.

[Jon57]

Just now, Jon57 said:

I've escaped. But will I get back. 😁

[Midnight]

2 minutes ago, Jon57 said:

I've escaped. But will I get back. 😁

Not this week 😜

 

1 minute ago, Orwellian said:

Really? Try harder.

 Give us a clue

 

 

Edited May 9 by Midnight

[Jon57]

Just now, Midnight said:

Not this week 😜

Probably me what shut the Huddersfield narrow. 🤣

[IanD]

10 minutes ago, Midnight said:

 

Who gives a toss what Parry is paid the man has failed and therefore should be retired 'to spend more time with the family'.

I can't think of another job were you can fail to meet objectives, fiddle the accounts and fail to deliver on promises made. 

 

 

You really don't get it, do you?

 

If Parry has done just as badly (or well) as anyone else would have given the constraints on the business -- which you agreed was the case! -- then how has he "failed", exactly?

 

Failed to deliver the cloud-cuckoo-land fundraising predictions made by his predecessors?

 

Failed to maintain the canals properly using money CART doesn't have?

 

Failed because he has been forced to prioritise millions of non-boaters over tens of thousands of boaters by the policies of government and DEFRA?

 

Apart from making you feel better, exactly what will getting rid of him do for the canals, since his successor will have precisely the same constraints?

 

Your comments about him sound pretty close to irrational hatred of the guy rather than anything justifiable... 😞 

Edited May 9 by IanD

[Orwellian]

6 minutes ago, Midnight said:

Not this week 😜

 

 Give us a clue

 

 

Thames Water for starters. There are lots more........ or don't you follow non waterways media?

Edited May 9 by Orwellian
correct spelling

[IanD]

13 minutes ago, Orwellian said:

Really? Try harder.

Indeed -- and don't forget the thousands of well-run businesses who have gone under because of circumstances beyond their control, for example Covid or Ukraine or Brexit... 😉 

Edited May 9 by IanD

[Midnight]

1 hour ago, Orwellian said:

Thames Water for starters. There are lots more........ or don't you follow non waterways media?

 No I try to avoid it - it's always bad news

1 hour ago, IanD said:

 

You really don't get it, do you?

 

If Parry has done just as badly (or well) as anyone else would have given the constraints on the business -- which you agreed was the case! -- then how has he "failed", exactly?

 

Failed to deliver the cloud-cuckoo-land fundraising predictions made by his predecessors?

 

Failed to maintain the canals properly using money CART doesn't have?

 

Failed because he has been forced to prioritise millions of non-boaters over tens of thousands of boaters by the policies of government and DEFRA?

 

Apart from making you feel better, exactly what will getting rid of him do for the canals, since his successor will have precisely the same constraints?

 

Your comments about him sound pretty close to irrational hatred of the guy rather than anything justifiable... 😞 

 

You really don't get it, do you?

[Orwellian]

23 minutes ago, Midnight said:

No I try to avoid it - it's always bad news

A bit like on here then?

[Machpoint005]

I noticed the thread title for the first time just now. 

 

The best thing to come out of Yorkshire (apart from the Memsahib) is the M62 to Manchester.

 

 

 

 

[IanD]

3 hours ago, Midnight said:

 No I try to avoid it - it's always bad news

 

You really don't get it, do you?

Well you certainly don't, given your reluctance to answer any difficult questions which challenge your opinions... 😞

 

Why not just admit that you hate Parry and want him out, even though you can't give any logical reason for this?