RCD

[Alan de Enfield]

41 minutes ago, MrsM said:

I am probably wrong but I thought the hull number that is permanently built/pressed/welded into the steel includes the year that the hull was built? 

 

There was no requirement for a HIN / CIN prior to the RCD in 1998.

Although, many manufacturers did have one marked on the boat,

Edited April 20 by Alan de Enfield

[MrsM]

9 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

There was no requirement for a HIN / CIN prior to the RCD in 1998.

Although, many manufacturers did have one marked on the boat,

I see, thank you. It really is complicated!

[blackrose]

1 hour ago, jddevel said:

There are those on here -like most forums I read, who take a delight in pointing out to those less informed retrospectively the error of their ways ( Watch youtube song " Oh God it`s hard to be humble when your perfect in every way). I realize having many years ago having a "short" tutorial in English Law - Caveat Emptor. However I will quote from the broker potentially being used " Are you aware if the boat had any major modifications since it was built-if so what and when?  e.g. Alterations to electrical systems like solar panels, new larger inverter, installation of solid fuel stove ,installation of diesel heating. IF YES HAS IT GOT A POST CONSTRUCTION ASSESSMENT. If NO this may effect the sale of the boat

 This I might suggest covers many contributors on this forum INCLUDING those "experts" who have decided they know how to add internet upgrade equipment and the necessary upgraded electrical equipment ( more solar bigger batteries etc). We can all produce pages of information gained from the internet as to what is required for this and that but I live in the real world. Heaven forbid what is going to happen with the advancement of A.I. I don`t consider myself a total idiot just a human who makes mistakes and in this case will financially have to pay for it. Such is life and even nearing 80 I`m still like the game of chess still learning.

Incidentally none of those contributing on here have told of their personal experience or given advice of a course of action other than I seem to have been presented with namely bite the bullet and shell out £4000 plus for an "expert" to prod and poke the boat.  

 

If it were me trying to sell the boat I'd just ignore the RCD regulations and sell it privately at a discount to someone else ignorant of or happy to ignore the rules. Anyone who does care will walk away. It's then up to you whether you make any potential buyers verbally aware of what the regs say. I might be wrong but I very much doubt any private sellers who've done this have ever found themselves in court or languishing in prison cells.

 

Apparently Facebook marketplace is now a good place to advertise boats - friends of mine have just sold their boat very quickly after advertising it there. They say it's much better than the Duck.

Edited April 20 by blackrose

[Alan de Enfield]

55 minutes ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

Read his previous posts he basically says what he has done and from whom he bought the shell from.He bought a sailaway from Bourne Boats and self fitted using people from the house building trade.

 

 

 

Sometimes it is important to actually read what has been written - he does not say he bought it from Bourne boats he says :

 

I would add that the hull was constructed by Bourne Boats to a sailaway level.

 

He originally said :

 

Disgruntled I saw a sailaway ( engine ballast flooring windows etc in)-right length for us (57 ft) and design (semi trad).

 

Where did he see it ?

Was it advertised on Apollo Duck by the 1st owner as a 'project as I have no time to finish it' or was it for sale by Bourne boats as a 'cancelleed order, or ...............?

Did it have a previous owner ?

What date did he buy it ?

What date was the boat built / 1st sold ?

Was Gas and electrics installed by the hull manufacturer

If it did have a 1st owner, what work had the 1st owner done ?

 

All we actually know is :- 

That in 2016 he was looking to have a new boat built.

It was supplied with an Annexe IIIA declaration.

It was fitted out by 'domestic' trades-people.

 

 

27 minutes ago, Tacet said:

Your quoting something other than the RCR/RCD but even so, if one makes a gas installation that undoubtedly meets the Essential Requirements - it's not a Major Craft Conversion, so no need for the PCA

 

IF it meets it I agree.

But without an installer signing it off as 'meeting the requirements' how would anyone know if it meets the requirements ?

Edited April 20 by Alan de Enfield

[MtB]

16 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

IF it meets it I agree.

But without an installer signing it off as 'meeting the requirements' how would anyone know if it meets the requirements ?

 

Even if an installer does sign it off as  'meeting the requirements' how would anyone know if it meets the requirements ?

 

An ongoing problem in the gas industry. And probably in the canal boat industry too.

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, MtB said:

 

Even if an installer does sign it off as  'meeting the requirements' how would anyone know if it meets the requirements ?

 

An ongoing problem in the gas industry. And probably in the canal boat industry too.

 

 

 

 

 

They don't, but at least it takes the legal responsibility from the owner / fitter outer and places it on the gas installer.

 

How do we know that the hull builder used the materials they said they have used, how do we know they put sufficient strengthening ribs in place, ? How do we know that they used a certified engine and not just a similar one from the same 'family' ?

It is never ending.

[Tacet]

37 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

 

They don't, but at least it takes the legal responsibility from the owner / fitter outer and places it on the gas installer.

 

How do we know that the hull builder used the materials they said they have used, how do we know they put sufficient strengthening ribs in place, ? How do we know that they used a certified engine and not just a similar one from the same 'family' ?

It is never ending.

Indeed it would be never ending if everything had to be subject to a PCA pretty much every day - in case (for a silly example) stability had been compromised by a Tesco delivery.

 

That's probably why (giving the legislative some credit) it's only triggered by a Major Craft Conversion and not changing a gas bottle.

[Phoenix_V]

It used to be possible to self certify boats built to category D (or C if under 12m) has that disapeared with the latest iteration?

[Hudds Lad]

5 hours ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

who was the broker?

If he's based at Dunchurch, i'd guess it's New & Used Boat Co. as they operate from there

[Alan de Enfield]

5 hours ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

Try different brokers, there are brokers that will sell it and there are brokers that will not want it.

 

The list that won't is getting longer (and apparently includes all BMA member brokers)

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

The list that won't is getting longer (and apparently includes all BMA member brokers)

Is it? “apparently” please let us know the list then if you know any broker that 100% won’t sell a boat without a current RCR/PCA.

Lets comprise a list of brokers that sellers with older boats need to avoid and not be forced into getting a new RCA/PCA by the broker. Bringing up trivial things like the OP mention “fitting solar panels” could be exploited by the broker quite easily forcing the seller to get a PCA.

Edited April 20 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[Tony Brooks]

22 minutes ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

Is it? “apparently” please let us know the list then if you know any broker that 100% won’t sell a boat without a current RCR/PCA.

Lets comprise a list of brokers on here that sellers with older boats can use and not be forced into getting a new RCA/PCA by the broker.

 

I think it is only "in scope" boats that the brokers are demanding RCR/PCA certificates for. There is no reason for them not to sell boats that are not "in scope", so your request seems to show a degree of misunderstanding of the discussion, and apparently the law as it stands.

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

1 minute ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I think it is only "in scope" boats that the brokers are demanding RCR/PCA certificates for. There is no reason for them not to sell boats that are not "in scope", so your request seems to show a degree of misunderstanding of the discussion, and apparently the law as it stands.

What is “in scope” boats, boats less than 5 years of age or boats that were built after the RCD came in, in 1998?

If Brokers are refusing to broker boats that have not got a RCR is that all “Scope” boats covered by the date the RCD was introduced? Please let us know.

 

[Alan de Enfield]

8 minutes ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

What is “in scope” boats, boats less than 5 years of age or boats that were built after the RCD came in, in 1998?

If Brokers are refusing to broker boats that have not got a RCR is that all “Scope” boats covered by the date the RCD was introduced? Please let us know.

 

 

No wonder you are confused by it all.

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

31 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

No wonder you are confused by it all.

Well your quoting and putting on all these RCR regulations as usual, I’m just asking for you to name brokers, you said BMA is that BMF which most Brokers are members? So Brokers affiliated with these wont sell boats without a RCD/RCR/PAC?

 “Scope boats” boats since the RCD came in, in 1998??? as you say all boats should have complying paperwork or it’s illegal to sell them and brokers won’t touch them. 
 Yet we all know this isn’t the case, just as boatbuilders doing stability tests with 6-8 170Kg adults on board and including certified test results in the RCR doesn’t happen.

 But according to you they should do Stability Tests as part of the RCR, well there’s a lot of new boat owners out there having spent £200K plus on boats without a valid RCR😂

 

Edited April 20 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[MtB]

6 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

 

They don't, but at least it takes the legal responsibility from the owner / fitter outer and places it on the gas installer.

 

How do we know that the hull builder used the materials they said they have used, how do we know they put sufficient strengthening ribs in place, ? How do we know that they used a certified engine and not just a similar one from the same 'family' ?

It is never ending.

 

 

So it's all a paperwork exercise, with no actual checking going on.

 

Self-declaration from start to finish, yes? 

 

Actual safety is bit-part actor in this show.

 

 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

31 minutes ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

Well your quoting and putting on all these RCR regulations as usual, I’m just asking for you to name brokers, you said BMA is that BMF which most Brokers are members? So Brokers affiliated with these wont sell boats without a RCD/RCR/PAC?

 “Scope boats” boats since the RCD came in, in 1998??? as you say all boats should have complying paperwork or it’s illegal to sell them and brokers won’t touch them. 
 Yet we all know this isn’t the case.

 

 

Apologies - slip of the finger - yes BMF.

 

The responsible divison of the BMF that cover boat sales outlets and brokers is the BRMA (Boat Retailers and Brokers Association) whose code of practce for all member to adhere to includes the following section :

 

15. All Boat Retailer and Brokers shall have and/or will offer to clients:-

a. Appropriate Professional indemnity insurance to cover errors and omissions occurring in the course of their broking activities

b. Use their best endeavours to verify the complete history of ownership of Any 2 hand craft offered for sale

c. Use their best endeavours to verify (if possible) the VAT status of 2 Hand Craft, advising prospective clients of any VAT liabilities that may exist in the absence of proof positive of VAT paid status.

d. All craft offered for sale to conform with relevant legislation (RCD etc)

e. For 2 Hand craft the ability to offer clients a choice of at least 3 suitably accredited surveyors from IIMS, RINA or YBDSA

f. Staff training – minimum standards and staff development and on-going training

 

So to answer your question all BMF / BRMA members have 'signed up to', and agreed that they will not sell a boat which does not comply with the RCD and has all those things in place that I listed a couple of days ago :

 

Before making a product available on the market, the distributor must verify that:

• The product bears the CE marking as required in Article 17

• It is accompanied by the following documents:

   Declaration of Conformity,

   Instructions and safety information,

   The owner’s manual in the appropriate language for the craft and the engines if installed

• It meets the product identification and traceability requirements, the manufacturer’s identification or the importer’s identification if applicable

 

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

30 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Apologies - slip of the finger - yes BMF.

 

The responsible divison of the BMF that cover boat sales outlets and brokers is the BRMA (Boat Retailers and Brokers Association) whose code of practce for all member to adhere to includes the following section :

 

15. All Boat Retailer and Brokers shall have and/or will offer to clients:-

a. Appropriate Professional indemnity insurance to cover errors and omissions occurring in the course of their broking activities

b. Use their best endeavours to verify the complete history of ownership of Any 2 hand craft offered for sale

c. Use their best endeavours to verify (if possible) the VAT status of 2 Hand Craft, advising prospective clients of any VAT liabilities that may exist in the absence of proof positive of VAT paid status.

d. All craft offered for sale to conform with relevant legislation (RCD etc)

e. For 2 Hand craft the ability to offer clients a choice of at least 3 suitably accredited surveyors from IIMS, RINA or YBDSA

f. Staff training – minimum standards and staff development and on-going training

 

So to answer your question all BMF / BRMA members have 'signed up to', and agreed that they will not sell a boat which does not comply with the RCD and has all those things in place that I listed a couple of days ago :

 

Before making a product available on the market, the distributor must verify that:

• The product bears the CE marking as required in Article 17

• It is accompanied by the following documents:

   Declaration of Conformity,

   Instructions and safety information,

   The owner’s manual in the appropriate language for the craft and the engines if installed

• It meets the product identification and traceability requirements, the manufacturer’s identification or the importer’s identification if applicable

 

So BMF member brokers will be seeing a slump in boat sales then?

Or an increase in PCA’s being carried out.

  I wonder how many on here have sold or bought a boat from a BMF member broker in the last year without a complying RCD or relevant paperwork?

Anyone???

Edited April 20 by BoatinglifeupNorth

[MtB]

1 hour ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

So BMF member brokers will be seeing a slump in boat sales then?

Or an increase in PCA’s being carried out.

  I wonder how many on here have sold or bought a boat from a BMF member broker in the last year without a complying RCD or relevant paperwork?

Anyone???

 

More easily, how many here have viewed a boat for sale built post 1998 that does not have a RCR ticket, at a BMF member?

[David Mack]

23 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

As written, the law includes not only business sales (a legal person) but a private individual (a natural person) as well and prevents them from selling a boat without the correct paperwork.

(But good luck trying to enforce that one).

 

3.4 Distributor’s obligations The distributor is any natural or legal person in the supply chain, other than the manufacturer or the importer, who makes the product available on the market......................

But making the product available on the market is defined as being in the course of a commercial activity. So a private individual selling his own boat is not (in RCD terms) making it available on the market, and is thus not subject to the distributor's obligations (although a broker handling the sale may well be).

Edited April 21 by David Mack

[MtB]

45 minutes ago, David Mack said:

But making the product available on the market is defined as being in the course of a commercial activity. So a private individual selling his own boat is not (in RCD terms) making it available on the market, and is thus not subject to the distributor's obligations (although a broker handling the sale may well be).

 

It all strikes me as horribly ambiguous and not nut and dried as Alan tries to make out. 

 

Isn't there also a qualification mentioned somewhere along the lines of RCR applying to a boat "First being made available on the market"?

 

Or was that RCD only and now superceded by RCR?

 

 

[Tony Brooks]

12 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

It all strikes me as horribly ambiguous and not nut and dried as Alan tries to make out. 

 

Isn't there also a qualification mentioned somewhere along the lines of RCR applying to a boat "First being made available on the market"?

 

Or was that RCD only and now superceded by RCR?

 

 

 

I agree on both counts, Alan's and the ambiguity. I think the problem is that there is not sufficient case law to clarify exactly what the regulations mean in practice, so people (the brokers) are erring on the side of caution.

 

We can discuss this ad nauseam and try to find excuses for why the regulations may or may not apply, but it is clear that right now brokers are refusing to handle boats and no matter what any individuals may think and say that is a fact people wanting to sell via a broker must face. It is of no help to them trying to pick holes in the regulations and their applicability.

[MtB]

5 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

but it is clear that right now brokers are refusing to handle boats

 

Is it? 

 

Despite repeated requests from various posters for names of brokers refusing to sell boats with missing RCR, I'm not sure I've ever seen such a broker actually named. 

 

Why is everyone so coy about saying which brokers are complying with what they perceive as the law? It makes no sense to me.

 

 

 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, David Mack said:

But making the product available on the market is defined as being in the course of a commercial activity. So a private individual selling his own boat is not (in RCD terms) making it available on the market, and is thus not subject to the distributor's obligations (although a broker handling the sale may well be).

 

I tend to agree, but it also states that it is irrespective of receiving payment, so is that commercial activity ?

 

'Law Insider' gives a definition of 'commercial activity' as :

 

Commercial activity means (a) all advertising, sales, purchases, or agreements for the sale or purchase of goods or services; (b) all giving, demonstration, or solicitation for the purchase or sale of goods or services provided by a person, group of persons, or other entity; and (c) all solicitations of gifts of money or other goods or services by a person, groups of persons, or other entity.

 

 

 

19 minutes ago, MtB said:

Isn't there also a qualification mentioned somewhere along the lines of RCR applying to a boat "First being made available on the market"?

 

Or was that RCD only and now superceded by RCR?

 

That all changed some years ago to be 'placed on the market'., that has subsequently been 'added to' ;

 

 

While the “old” Directive considered the action of “placing on the market and/or putting into service”, the new Directive broadens the scope to the action of “making available”.

 

A product is made available on the market when supplied for distribution, consumption or use on the Union market in the course of a commercial activity, whether in return for payment or free of charge.  The concept of making available refers to each individual product and implies that all economic operators in the supply chain have traceability obligations and need to have an active role in ensuring that only compliant products circulate on the Union market.

 

A product is placed on the market when it is made available for the first time on the Union market. The operation is reserved either for a manufacturer or an importer as the manufacturer and the importer are the only economic operators who place products on the market

[Tony Brooks]

Just now, MtB said:

 

Is it? 

 

Despite repeated requests from various posters for names of brokers refusing to sell boats with missing RCR, I'm not sure I've ever seen such a broker actually named. 

 

Why is everyone so coy about saying which brokers are complying with what they perceive as the law? It makes no sense to me.

 

I am sure that we have had a post from a lady who had had a broker demand the boat be certified, although she did not name them, and after an earlier exchange on this topic I had a PM or email from someone confirming that is the case. I don't think that we get much further, saying that unless the brokers are named this is all a mirage.