Pop riveting windows

[blackrose]

13 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

If you have window trims that you can remove, then how about sticking some decent hardwood battens to the inside of the cabin side and screwing through the  existing screw holes into the hardwood.

 

That's the way they were done in the first place that's failed. 

 

Granted that was 19 years ago, but the problem is that eventually the condensation that invariably forms on the window frame gets between the frame and the hardwood and causes it to rot. The rotting extends to the screw threads and the window starts to loosen. Small amounts of rain water starts to get in from the outside. The rotting of the hardwood is exacerbated and so on...

 

It's not a great method. In my opinion the window fixings and the trim fixings should be done independently.

 

13 hours ago, Quattrodave said:

This is sounding much harder work than it should be... A number of solutions spring to mind...

1. As Tony said, drill straight through and use wood screws into battens behind.  

2. As a previous plan, pop rivets, use blind stainless rivets, drill straight through to the correct size & hire or borrow a battery or air pop rivet gun.

3. As again previously mentioned, tap and machine screw. Drill straight through with the correct drill for chosen tap. Most battery drills have screw driver torque setting with is great for tapping, use Temaxol for drilling and tapping.

4. Rivnuts, again you'll need to drill straight through to correct size first,  squeeze in rivnuts wind in machine screws.

5. Nuts, again drill straight through but you'll likely need somone else in the inside to hold the nut and wind in machine screws....

 

1 - original method that's already failed 

2 - I guess you didn't read my posts, I used a blind rivet and I don't like the finish

3 - What part of my previous post on not being able to tap the holes was not clear?

4 - Rivnuts leave a gap behind as one poster already pointed out

5 - Yes I've already said that's what I'm doing 

 

13 hours ago, truckcab79 said:

To the OP - Think I said way back that you’re the only person that can determine what method will work best for you. Sounds like you’ve sorted it anyway. 👍.  

 

Thanks. Yes I'm not sure why I'm still getting suggestions on how to do it when I've already stated how I'm doing it? 

11 hours ago, truckcab79 said:

 

OP Let us know which you go for.  Pics always welcome.  👍

 

Little machine screws & nuts. Just waiting for them to arrive plus some dry weather and time to do it. I'll post a picture as soon as I get the first one done.

Edited April 10 by blackrose

[David Mack]

If you are using nuts and bolts, then presumably you have to remove the existing timber internal trim to be able to fix them. You say the existing trims have rotted, so are you putting them back or replacing with new? Either way the trims will have to incorporate pockets to accommodate the nuts. If you are providing new trims then you could have used woodscrews from the outside, and got another 19 years out of them.

[Tony Brooks]

12 hours ago, blackrose said:

That's the way they were done in the first place that's failed. 

 

But were they a decent hard wood or softwood? I know on mine they went into softwood that I am not sure was even treated softwood. While I think nuts and machine screws are probably the best bet in your case, I can't help thinking about dropping the spanner(s) inside the cabin lining. I wonder if there is a plastic section that could substitute for hard wood, even if you do have to drill and countersink the cabin side so you can use a screw to hold the plastic sections in place.

[truckcab79]

Ever wish you’d not asked. 😂

Edited April 11 by truckcab79

[blackrose]

On 11/04/2024 at 10:39, Tony Brooks said:

 

But were they a decent hard wood or softwood? 

 

Hardwood. Whether solid oak is decent or not I don't know. Anyway after nearly 20 years it was rotting where the condensation and then water leak had got to it.

 

__________________

I've got the first window back in using stainless A4 screws, flange nuts and a few washers where the holes in the cabin side were right on the edge of the window aperture and not a full hole. Sealed with Bostik Simson MSR adhesive/sealant. I didn't realise until I took the window out that it was originally sealed with neoprene tape, which had obviously failed.

 

I also stuffed some PET insulation into the square around the porthole because there was nothing there before. 

 

Because the aperture was cut slightly oversized and there's not a lot of width to the seal I think the sealant is the best method for me. I was able to screw it up tight by myself from the inside with a small socket on a straight handle and an Allen key on the outside with one arm out the top hopper (which I'd removed).

 

The main challenge was cleaning up the sealant afterwards. It's messy stuff!

 

https://www.thegluepeople.co.uk/mspolymers-hybrids-c-6_11/bostik-msr-construction-adhesive-290ml-p-389.html

 

Just got to put the wooden trim back in and then 13 more to do! 🫤

 

 

 

 

Edited April 17 by blackrose

[David Mack]

Looks good. 

Do you have to cut pockets in the back of the trim to accommodate the nut and bolt?

[blackrose]

27 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Looks good. 

Do you have to cut pockets in the back of the trim to accommodate the nut and bolt?

 

Yes, I'll just drill some 12mm holes about 15mm deep. The old screw holes are in the wood to use as guides for positioning.

[truckcab79]

Very nice. 👍 

 

What’s  your insulation?  Looks like polyester fleece wadding of some sort. 

[Peugeot 106]

If you wanted to use tape which is a lot less messy you could probably buy some sheet and cut out circular gaskets of the right size with scissors .
I’m nervous offering suggestions on this thread as I’m not sure you are looking for them. Please don’t you or your mate take it the wrong way

[Tracy D'arth]

IMO the dome head stainless screws look far better than pop rivets, well done.

[ditchcrawler]

Just now, Tracy D'arth said:

IMO the dome head stainless screws look far better than pop rivets, well done.

IMO anything does. But yes that looks neat 

[blackrose]

21 minutes ago, truckcab79 said:

Very nice. 👍 

 

What’s  your insulation?  Looks like polyester fleece wadding of some sort. 

 

Yes polyester wool made from recycled PET bottles. It doesn't have quite as good insulation properties as glass rockwool but it's much easier to use, non-itchy, etc, and there was nothing there before.

 

17 minutes ago, Peugeot 106 said:

If you wanted to use tape which is a lot less messy you could probably buy some sheet and cut out circular gaskets of the right size with scissors .
I’m nervous offering suggestions on this thread as I’m not sure you are looking for them. Please don’t you or your mate take it the wrong way

 

No I don't want to use tape. As I said, there's really not enough seal width to use neoprene tape. At the top it was only about 6mm wide. I think trying to keep it in place while fitting the window would be much more hassle. I know someone's going to suggest sticking the tape on first with mastic, but if I'm using mastic I'm using mastic.

 

15 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

IMO the dome head stainless screws look far better than pop rivets, well done.

 

Thanks. Yes I think they look better too.

Edited April 17 by blackrose

[Peugeot 106]

You can probably get self adhesive neoprene for just this sort of application. You peel the release paper off the back and could do it all in the comfort of your cabin!

 

your screws are the same as mine and look v smart

[blackrose]

56 minutes ago, Peugeot 106 said:

You can probably get self adhesive neoprene for just this sort of application. You peel the release paper off the back and could do it all in the comfort of your cabin!

 

your screws are the same as mine and look v smart

 

Yes I guess I could have used self adhesive neoprene but that still doesn't get around the issue of the seal width. With only 6mm I'd rather use sealant. The original neoprene tape failed, probably a couple of years ago but I just didn't realise and put it down to condensation. While it lasted 15 years, the stuff I removed was flat as a pancake and I'm amazed it lasted as long as it did.

 

Also what do people who use neoprene use to seal the screws? Mastic?

 

I'm happy with the sealant anyway so that's what I'm doing.

Edited April 17 by blackrose

[Peugeot 106]

I put a dab of mastic on the screw threads before I put them in. Thread sealant or liquid ptfe may be better but mine don’t leak

 

Decorators “Big Wipes’ are brilliant for wiping off excess mastic including Sikaflex. You obviously have to use them before it sets

 

if you are bedding the windows in mastic ideally you leave it to go off before finally tightening the screws to avoid squishing it all out. Not sure how many people bother!

[blackrose]

1 minute ago, Peugeot 106 said:

If you are bedding the windows in mastic ideally you leave it to go off before finally tightening the screws to avoid squishing it all out. Not sure how many people bother!

 

I didn't bother. The porthole frames have a set of grooves on the back of the flange. You can't squeeze it all out. But I wouldn't let it go off before tightening the screws anyway because once you crack the sealant the screws may not be sealed. 

[Cheshire cat]

I'm late to the party but here goes. What o did was to drill the holes so they accepted a small rawlplug. (The yellow ones). I then put a dab of sealant on the screw and screwed it in. No problems so far.

[Bod]

On 09/04/2024 at 13:59, Eeyore said:

Get a "T" handled hex key and a length of string as a wrist strap for the outside. Small hex keys are difficult to hold and often dropped.

You may occasionally encounter one of the more interesting things about working with stainless fasteners; their ability to lock up solid despite only being spun on by hand. Just have to shear or cut them off and try another one.

Bit late to the game, but regarding stainless steel fasteners locking up solid, for no reason, it is a real problem, as they do it at random, and will not come undone, having to be cut out, drilled out, nut splitter might work?

The answer has been found to be Copper Slip grease, a very small amount at the start of the thread, every bolt, even ones with Nyloc nuts, leading to the use of lubricant on a friction fit item!

Been working with S/steel for many years, this is the only way I've seen work.

 

Bod.

[Peugeot 106]

47 minutes ago, Bod said:

Bit late to the game, but regarding stainless steel fasteners locking up solid, for no reason, it is a real problem, as they do it at random, and will not come undone, having to be cut out, drilled out, nut splitter might work?

The answer has been found to be Copper Slip grease, a very small amount at the start of the thread, every bolt, even ones with Nyloc nuts, leading to the use of lubricant on a friction fit item!

Been working with S/steel for many years, this is the only way I've seen work.

 

Bod.

I think it’s called “ galling” and can happen with any metal fastening but is a particular problem with stainless bolts into mild steel. I didn’t have any problem with my window screws but they were lubricated with mastic as it’s caused by friction

Yes copper grease would be ideal

[Tracy D'arth]

21 hours ago, Peugeot 106 said:

I think it’s called “ galling” and can happen with any metal fastening but is a particular problem with stainless bolts into mild steel. I didn’t have any problem with my window screws but they were lubricated with mastic as it’s caused by friction

Yes copper grease would be ideal

I use a bar of soap.