Hunting for a Lucas Starter solenoid for a Lister Petter lpws4

[James_P]

Hi all,

My starter motor went had a sulk, turn the key got the heat coil and then a click and thats was it.

Now it working for now, but don't like being at the wim of machines with a mood. 

So where can you get a solenoid for a Lucas starter motor on a lister petter lpws4?

 

Many thanks 

 

James

[Tony Brooks]

Your local(ish) vehicle electrical specialist or Lancashire Rotating Electrics.  However, several other things can give that symptom. Including the multi-way plug(s) that many have in their main engine harness, worn ignition switch, bad master switch or you may have another solenoid or relay allowing a thinner cable to be used.

[Tracy D'arth]

12 minutes ago, James_P said:

Hi all,

My starter motor went had a sulk, turn the key got the heat coil and then a click and thats was it.

Now it working for now, but don't like being at the wim of machines with a mood. 

So where can you get a solenoid for a Lucas starter motor on a lister petter lpws4?

 

Many thanks 

 

James

Lancashire Rotating Electrics, never let me down.  Send them all the info you have and pictures. 

[jonathanA]

Suspect the starter and solenoid are a combined unit, you won't be able to buy the solenoid on its own. It's a fairly standard "denso" unit.

 

I would check all your connections especially the high current ones on the starter. I had a similar issue which turned out to be a loose connection on the starter battery lead. It's  easy for a shaved gorilla to over tighten the nut and strip the thread. Resulting in an intermittent connection.

Depending on the which build you have there might be a plastic box on the side of the engine with some relays in and a multiway connector on the side which can work loose and cause problems.

[Alan de Enfield]

Attached screen shot of LPWS spares manual, showing the starter solenoid and part numbers.

 

 

 

[James_P]

 

Thanks guys, I checked the voltages (12.8v) direct from the battery termials to the solenoid, via a  nice beefy wire with only an isolator swich on the live and all good. And the solenoid did click every time if the motor didn't even squeek. All had been WD40ed in case of damp connections

 

Next day (after tell the CRT I was kaput) on turning the key the stater clunked. Went for a brew and the next time it jumped into life just fine!

(Threats of new starter motor must have scared it.)

 

Is there an easy way of measuring max Voltage drop when the starting the engine.

 

The starter is the Lucas one, I know solenoid for similar Lucas starters are on eBay, but need to check I get the to right one. In the lister petter parts manuals I have they quote various parts numbers for the Lucas starter, and I don't have Lucas's part numbers for the bits.

That's the bit I am not sure on.

 

Will check  Lancashire Rotating electrics.

 

 

Just seen your message Alan, thanks, just mines different with the solenoid on the side of the starter.

Just like British Engineering why fo things one way when you can do it as  many ways as possible!

[john.k]

Typically,the copper disc gets burnt away at two spots where the contacts touch ...........once ,Lucas supplied a kit with the two contacts and the disc and some plastic bits etc...................Ive seen a copper coin used as for the disc ,but it would need a bit of handywork to fit.

[Eeyore]

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Attached screen shot of LPWS spares manual, showing the starter solenoid and part numbers.

 

 

 

Wouldn't that be the grounding solenoid for the "insulated" return wiring harness?

[john.k]

What starter is it ?   CA45,M50,M45G ?........my advice is ,as always ,to buy one of the small geared high output starters ,which are made in Asia ......I have found these to be a big improvement  in application and startability over the Lucas offerings....................any industrial auto electric shop will be able to supply one of these  correctly configured to suit your motor................PS ,the device shown in the picture has nothing to do with a starter.........its a relay switch.

Edited March 15 by john.k

[Tony Brooks]

8 hours ago, James_P said:

Is there an easy way of measuring max Voltage drop when the starting the engine.

 

Yes, just like checking any other volt drop without doing any sums.

 

Volt meter, with a lead extended if necessary, between battery pos. and the main connection on the starter body (motor input terminal). The meter will read battery voltage, ignore this. Operate the starter and whatever the meter reads is the volt drop, BUT it may jump about a bit as the engine goes over compression.

 

FWIW, you might have brush problems in the starter, the solenoid pull in coil runs to negative through the brushes.

[Alan de Enfield]

6 hours ago, Eeyore said:

Wouldn't that be the grounding solenoid for the "insulated" return wiring harness?

 

Its in the section titled 'starter motor'

 

 

[john.k]

There is a circular copper disc in the solenoid .....this gradually burns away .........some of the starters listed have kits for the solenoid (some soldering needed) ,some have sealed solenoids ,that must be replaced in one piece.

[Alan de Enfield]

5 hours ago, john.k said:

PS ,the device shown in the picture has nothing to do with a starter.........its a relay switch.

 

The Lister Petter master parts manual must be mistaken then, as they certainly call it a solenoid.

[Tony Brooks]

7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

The Lister Petter master parts manual must be mistaken then, as they certainly call it a solenoid.

It is a solenoid - a starter solenoid off an inertia starter. However, some Lister engines use these to allow earth return for stating and then insulated return for running. I think that it may well cause starting volt drop in that use.

[Alan de Enfield]

From an earlier (1999) Master Parts List/

 

 

 

9 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

It is a solenoid - a starter solenoid off an inertia starter. However, some Lister engines use these to allow earth return for stating and then insulated return for running. I think that it may well cause starting volt drop in that use.

 

 

Yes they had two different versions on marine engines :

 

 

 

[ditchcrawler]

I had a similar problem on my Beta and it was lack of omf from the key switch to the solenoid, I now have a relay by the starter motor operated by the key and switching the 12 volts on a very short piece of wire from the 12 volt live terminal to the solenoid energising terminal. Easy to check, take off the connection from the key on the solenoid and just touch it with a wire link from the main 12 volt terminal

[jonathanA]

Here's a picture of my old lpsw4 starter. Sadly a knacker but if yours is like this then the solenoid is part of it. This for a standard earth return marine build 47.

I'm sure a search using the part numbers will throw up lots of suppliers at lots of prices... 

[john.k]

The pic is of a high output geared starter ,of the type I suggested the OP fit to his engine.

[Steve56]

17 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

From an earlier (1999) Master Parts List/

 

 

 

 

 

Yes they had two different versions on marine engines :

 

 

 

The early marine engines used a Lucas starter motor. Originally there was a choice of isulated or earth return. Lucas then stopped supplying the insulated starter hence the use of the twin 4ST solenoids when insulated earth was required. Moving on to later engines Lucas stopped supplying starters altogether so Lister moved over to using Nippon Denso starter motors. These later starters can be fitted to earlier engines with no other modification to the engine.

[Tony Brooks]

I would add, that I would then get rid of that twin solenoid insulated return setup. I think it might be mandatory on certain specific vessels, but narrowboats are not one of them. K.I.S.

[ditchcrawler]

16 hours ago, jonathanA said:

Here's a picture of my old lpsw4 starter. Sadly a knacker but if yours is like this then the solenoid is part of it. This for a standard earth return marine build 47.

I'm sure a search using the part numbers will throw up lots of suppliers at lots of prices... 

I take it the large bolt is the positive connection and the spade is the connection to the start button/key It was between these two points I suggested you just mack a quick contact with a short piece of wire, this will eliminate wiring, key, button faults or highlight them

 

[Tracy D'arth]

LRE will repair that starter.

[john.k]

Be sure to get a quote before comitting to work on a Nippon Denso  starter ..............while they are much better than anything Lucas ever made ,parts can be expensive .

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, ditchcrawler said:

I suggested you just mack a quick contact with a short piece of wire

 

That was the way I started my old 3C JCB (no ignition wiring) - but - using a screwdriver. The sparks make you jump but you get used to it.

[jonathanA]

On 16/03/2024 at 11:51, Tracy D'arth said:

LRE will repair that starter.

Actually I took it in to good starter alternator place, a chap who specialises in CAV, he tried the starter and it did nothing at all, he reckoned it wasn't unusual for something I can't remember to disintegrate and it's cheaper to replace rhe whole unit he said. At the time, a good few years ago he quoted me about 90 quid for a replacement. 

 

One day I may get around to taking it to bits to see what's up with it....