GRP v Steel

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, Tony1 said:

 

I'm reading these posts with interest because in the longer term I would consider getting a viking 32cc or similar, especially if I find I'm struggling to handle a steel narrowboat.

I was thinking a GRP might be the logical choice when one starts to lose strength and mobility, but clearly there can be some issues climbing in and out of them- although having a section of the side wall cut out does seem feasible.  

 

I like your idea of fitting an outboard, if its an old boat with an unreliable inboard diesel engine.

Diesel outboards are just too expensive, and the hassle of fetching petrol once or twice a week is a concern, but I would be using an ebike so not too much hard work involved.

And if one could fit panniers that hold a 10L jerrycan on each side, one could fetch 20 litres in a single trip. 

The problem of getting a good battery charge in winter is also a concern with an outboard, so a genny would probably be needed for part of the year, depending on how much solar could be fitted. 1000 watts would go a long way to reducing reliance on a genny.

 

 

 

I think that you would do well to calculate how much solar you can fit on the roof of such a boat. I suspect it would be nothing like 1000 watts, but could be wrong.

[Tony1]

Just now, Tony Brooks said:

 

I think that you would do well to calculate how much solar you can fit on the roof of such a boat. I suspect it would be nothing like 1000 watts, but could be wrong.

 

I imagine you're right Tony. The 32cc has a fair bit of roof space, but nothing like a narrowboat. 

I'm used to having 1400 watts panels, in fact for the last two days I've averaged 1000-1300 Wh, so they are starting to deliver the goods so to speak, at least on bright days, and the days of running the engine for charging will be mostly over by the time we get properly into March.

That definitely wouldn't be the case on a 32 foot GRP.

But tbh, with some of the comments from various owners, I'm starting to question my original idea that a 32ft GRP would be easier for an older person to manage (e.g. pull it to a stop, pull into the bank against wind, tow it back or forward a few feet here and there- just those odd times when a bit of muscle is called for).

GRP seems a cheaper option, but maybe not necessarily easier to manhandle, on the occasions when that is needed. 

 

[Tony Brooks]

1 minute ago, Tony1 said:

 

I imagine you're right Tony. The 32cc has a fair bit of roof space, but nothing like a narrowboat. 

I'm used to having 1400 watts panels, in fact for the last two days I've averaged 1000-1300 Wh, so they are starting to deliver the goods so to speak, at least on bright days, and the days of running the engine for charging will be mostly over by the time we get properly into March.

That definitely wouldn't be the case on a 32 foot GRP.

But tbh, with some of the comments from various owners, I'm starting to question my original idea that a 32ft GRP would be easier for an older person to manage (e.g. pull it to a stop, pull into the bank against wind, tow it back or forward a few feet here and there- just those odd times when a bit of muscle is called for).

GRP seems a cheaper option, but maybe not necessarily easier to manhandle, on the occasions when that is needed. 

 

 

I think a GRP, although lighter, will blow about far more readily than a steel boat because of the lack of draft and they seem to tend to have a bit more side area so more windage. I found that learning to use a spring on the centre line to spring the boat alongside using the engine sorted  the wind difficulty, but that presupposes there will always be a secure point to tie the spring line to. Unless you are quick with a goat chain or strike lucky with a tree this is not really an option on the canal bank.

[LadyG]

31 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

I imagine you're right Tony. The 32cc has a fair bit of roof space, but nothing like a narrowboat. 

I'm used to having 1400 watts panels, in fact for the last two days I've averaged 1000-1300 Wh, so they are starting to deliver the goods so to speak, at least on bright days, and the days of running the engine for charging will be mostly over by the time we get properly into March.

That definitely wouldn't be the case on a 32 foot GRP.

But tbh, with some of the comments from various owners, I'm starting to question my original idea that a 32ft GRP would be easier for an older person to manage (e.g. pull it to a stop, pull into the bank against wind, tow it back or forward a few feet here and there- just those odd times when a bit of muscle is called for).

GRP seems a cheaper option, but maybe not necessarily easier to manhandle, on the occasions when that is needed. 

 

I'm 77 and slowing down, but I don't have many problems with strength, its all about technique,  always has been from my sailing days.

I would struggle with a grp as im not level with the wharf when I come alongside.

I bring the narrowboat boat to a halt and carefully step off with a long centreline in hand. I have time to tie up, unless there is something like a river strong stream, adverse wind, unstable pontoon,, no bollards (rings are never so easy).

I use the ropes to handle the boat:  a quick turn round a bollard when the boat is brought alongside. Keep your ropes coiled from the end attached to boat, if you don't do this you will end up with twists and knots.

I see lots of boaters who don't have a clue, and if they hand me back a rope it's likely to be in a fankle, they are on the wharf trying to pull a 17 tonne boat against an offshore wind, the boat is mak8ng them fight,  but they ignore the bollard at their feet.

I can bowhaul for a short distance, more likely just push the boat a bit to line up with mooring rings.

Edited February 14 by LadyG

[magnetman]

53 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

The problem of getting a good battery charge in winter is also a concern with an outboard, so a genny would probably be needed for part of the year, depending on how much solar could be fitted. 1000 watts would go a long way to reducing reliance on a genny.

 

 

I am quite intrigued about this. I think the Honda 10 has a 12 amp charging coil. I have not done any experiments with the 10 on the shopping launch but it may be that this charge comes out even at tickover. The engine itself is remarkably quiet and frugal running at tickover so IF it was feasible to pull 10 amps at say 14v it could be quite an interesting generator. 

 

Not sure how they react to long run times at tickover it may be a bad idea but these small Honda twin outboards do seem to be remarkably good power units. I would like to experiment with one as a standalone generator perhaps with a permanent magnet alternator on the top. 

 

Quiet, clean and water cooled. 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

57 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

And if one could fit panniers that hold a 10L jerrycan on each side, one could fetch 20 litres in a single trip. 

 

Just be aware that there are laws about how much petrol you can, buy and store in a car or a boat 'in loose cans' (ie not a built in fuel tank)

Too much would not only be illegal (is it only illegal if you are caught ?) but would also invalidate your insurance if it could be proven by raking thru the ashes.

 

For example : 

Buying / transporting / storing  2x 20 litre Jerry cans is illegal,

as is 2x10 litre cans if you already have 11+litres on board the boat,

as is storing 3x10 litre cans.

 

 

Petrol Storage On Boats

 

https://www.hse.gov.uk/fireandexplosion/petrol-storage-club-association.htm

 

You can store up to 30 litres of petrol at home or at non-workplace premises without informing your local Petroleum Enforcement Authority (PEA).

You can store it in:

suitable portable metal or plastic containers

one demountable fuel tank

a combination of the above as long as no more than 30 litres is kept

For these purposes 'premises' are as defined in the Health and Safety Work Act, etc. 1974 and includes, for example, motor vehicles, boats and aircraft.

 

What containers can I use to store petrol?

The legislation allows you to store petrol in the following containers:

plastic containers storing up to 10 litres

metal containers storing up to 20 litres

demountable fuel tank up to 30 litres

Suitable portable containers are defined in Schedule 2 (para 6) and Schedule 3 of the regulations. UN approved containers are an example of such containers.

More detailed information on portable petrol storage containers (PDF) - Portable Document Format is available.

 

Does the petrol in the fuel tank of my car count towards the total I can store?

No – the petrol in the fuel tank of your vehicle, including boats and aircraft, does not count when you are calculating the total amount you are storing.

How much petrol can I store on a vehicle?

You can store up to 30 litres of petrol in a maximum of 2 suitable containers in your vehicle.  For the purpose of these Regulations a ‘vehicle’ is interpreted as any type of vehicle so includes boats, aircraft and hovercraft. This type of storage counts towards the total you can store at non workplace premises. Carriage of petrol is covered by the Carriage of Dangerous Goods (CDG) and the European agreement (ADR).

 

[Tony1]

21 minutes ago, magnetman said:

I am quite intrigued about this. I think the Honda 10 has a 12 amp charging coil. I have not done any experiments with the 10 on the shopping launch but it may be that this charge comes out even at tickover. The engine itself is remarkably quiet and frugal running at tickover so IF it was feasible to pull 10 amps at say 14v it could be quite an interesting generator. 

 

Not sure how they react to long run times at tickover it may be a bad idea but these small Honda twin outboards do seem to be remarkably good power units. I would like to experiment with one as a standalone generator perhaps with a permanent magnet alternator on the top. 

 

Quiet, clean and water cooled. 

 

 

 

I think for very low electricity users (e.g. those who don't use a fridge in winter, etc), 12 amps might make a decent contribution.

But as great as those Honda motors are, with my setup it would be of limited use (although it would be nice to know it was helping with the battery charge when cruising).

If you were moored up for a few days in winter, I would imagine there are much more efficient ways to use your petrol to create electricity- e.g. a small genny?

If I ever do go down the GRP route, I think a genny will be essential.

 

As an aside, for boaters like yourself who might possibly still be afloat in about 25 years from now (i.e. after the 2050 ban on IC engines), maybe GRP will become the norm?

After all, you'll be able to drive a GRP along with a 10hp motor, whereas a 57ft steel narrowboat will need at least 30 hp in some places, and 30hp electric motors might be very expensive. The cost of an electric conversion at the moment is absolutely prohibitive for many boaters, especially when you consider the batteries and installation.

 

With a lower power motor you'll need less batteries and a much cheaper motor, so GRP boating might be the only affordable option for a lot of people. I can imagine we might see a big rise in GRP boat numbers, and the builders will be very busy. 

 

Edited February 14 by Tony1

[magnetman]

18 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

As an aside, for boaters like yourself who might possibly still be afloat in about 25 years from now (i.e. after the 2050 ban on IC engines), maybe GRP will become the norm?

After all, you'll be able to drive a GRP along with a 10hp motor, whereas a 57ft steel narrowboat will need at least 30 hp in some places, and 30hp electric motors might be very expensive. The cost of an electric conversion at the moment is absolutely prohibitive for many boaters, especially when you consider the batteries and installation.

 

With a lower power motor you'll need less batteries and a much cheaper motor, so GRP boating might be the only affordable option for a lot of people. I can imagine we might see a big rise in GRP boat numbers, and the builders will be very busy. 

 

Asides are always good.

 

That would be ironic as GRP is a problem material. Just look how many end of life GRP Boats end up cluttering waterways. It is hard to dispose of. Taking the Thames as an example there are plenty of waste GRP Boats on weirs and in random other places. Its a real problem. 

 

Aluminium would I think be better. 

 

If one had a water ballast one would be able to alter the air draft and getting on and off height according to circumstances. 

 

Not sure how good this would be with narrow Boats though. 

 

Edited February 14 by magnetman

[ditchcrawler]

17 minutes ago, magnetman said:

Aluminium would I think be better. 

 

If one had a water ballast one would be able to alter the air draft and getting on and off height according to circumstances. 

 

Not sure how good this would be with narrow Boats though. 

 

Sea Otter but the water ballast is not adjustable

[Tony1]

39 minutes ago, magnetman said:

 

That would be ironic as GRP is a problem material. Just look how many end of life GRP Boats end up cluttering waterways. It is hard to dispose of. Taking the Thames as an example there are plenty of waste GRP Boats on weirs and in random other places. Its a real problem. 

 

Aluminium would I think be better. 

 

 

I'm looking forward to the rise of GRP boats. It may that electric-engined GRP boats will become respectable and highly desirable among the elite of the waterways boating world.

I do hope they change the current rule whereby to get a GRP you have to be an aggressive and antisocial alcoholic.

I can do the alcoholic bit, its all the shouting at strangers that I'd struggle with. 

 

PS - Hey I'm just kidding, GRP lads. I love the things!   😁

 

PPS - I always thought a GRP hull would last 100 years if not damaged? The half-sunk ones you see knocking about aren't necessarily half sunk because they're GRP- more likely because they're neglected. 

 

[Mike Todd]

1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Just be aware that there are laws about how much petrol you can, buy and store in a car or a boat 'in loose cans' (ie not a built in fuel tank)

Too much would not only be illegal (is it only illegal if you are caught ?) but would also invalidate your insurance if it could be proven by raking thru the ashes.

 

For example : 

Buying / transporting / storing  2x 20 litre Jerry cans is illegal,

as is 2x10 litre cans if you already have 11+litres on board the boat,

as is storing 3x10 litre cans.

 

 

Petrol Storage On Boats

 

https://www.hse.gov.uk/fireandexplosion/petrol-storage-club-association.htm

 

You can store up to 30 litres of petrol at home or at non-workplace premises without informing your local Petroleum Enforcement Authority (PEA).

You can store it in:

suitable portable metal or plastic containers

one demountable fuel tank

a combination of the above as long as no more than 30 litres is kept

For these purposes 'premises' are as defined in the Health and Safety Work Act, etc. 1974 and includes, for example, motor vehicles, boats and aircraft.

 

What containers can I use to store petrol?

The legislation allows you to store petrol in the following containers:

plastic containers storing up to 10 litres

metal containers storing up to 20 litres

demountable fuel tank up to 30 litres

Suitable portable containers are defined in Schedule 2 (para 6) and Schedule 3 of the regulations. UN approved containers are an example of such containers.

More detailed information on portable petrol storage containers (PDF) - Portable Document Format is available.

 

Does the petrol in the fuel tank of my car count towards the total I can store?

No – the petrol in the fuel tank of your vehicle, including boats and aircraft, does not count when you are calculating the total amount you are storing.

How much petrol can I store on a vehicle?

You can store up to 30 litres of petrol in a maximum of 2 suitable containers in your vehicle.  For the purpose of these Regulations a ‘vehicle’ is interpreted as any type of vehicle so includes boats, aircraft and hovercraft. This type of storage counts towards the total you can store at non workplace premises. Carriage of petrol is covered by the Carriage of Dangerous Goods (CDG) and the European agreement (ADR).

 

Small point on your examples - the text cited does seem to exclude fuel in the permanent tank.

[Alan de Enfield]

23 minutes ago, Mike Todd said:

Small point on your examples - the text cited does seem to exclude fuel in the permanent tank.

 

 

I thought this covered that point ?

 

 

2 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Just be aware that there are laws about how much petrol you can, buy and store in a car or a boat 'in loose cans' (ie not a built in fuel tank)

 

[Tony1]

7 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

I thought this covered that point ?

 

 

 

 

The phrase 'built in fuel tank' would seem to include the petrol tank that is built into the outboard motor itself, surely? 

 

I personally would interpret it that petrol within that tank is not counted as 'storage', in the same way that 10 litre jerrycans are? 

Some of those outboard tanks can hold about 20 litres, so with 20 more litres in jerrycans, thats not a bad total to cruise with. 

 

 

Edited February 14 by Tony1

[magnetman]

Outboard motors above 6HP have remote portable fuel tanks. 

 

 

 

 

Someone can probably find an exception but this is a pretty good rule. 

[Alan de Enfield]

30 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

The phrase 'built in fuel tank' would seem to include the petrol tank that is built into the outboard motor itself, surely? 

 

I personally would interpret it that petrol within that tank is not counted as 'storage', in the same way that 10 litre jerrycans are? 

Some of those outboard tanks can hold about 20 litres, so with 20 more litres in jerrycans, thats not a bad total to cruise with. 

 

 

I think you are conflating the inbuilt tank on small outboard which probably has only a couple of litres, with the big steel 'un fitted' tanks that sit on the deck and are connected to the outboard by a rubber hose, these are commonny 4 or 5 gallons (up to 30 litres) and these would be counted as part of the 'non-fitted tanks (maximum of two storage tanks) and part of the total volume of petrol stored (30 litres max)

Edited February 14 by Alan de Enfield

[Tony1]

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I think you are conflating the inbuilt tank on small outboard which probably has only a couple of litres, with the big steel 'un fitted' tanks that sit on the deck and are connected to the outboard by a rubber hose, these are commonny 4 or 5 gallons (up to 30 litres) and these would be counted as part of the 'non-fitted tanks (maximum of two storage tanks) and part of the total volume of petrol stored (30 litres max)

 

Ah, I see. They don't normally show the 'portable' tank on the website sales pages...

So yes, petrol would be a little bit of a nuisance if you stick to the rules, but its still not a dealbreaker by any means. I use the ebike to do several trips each week anyway to shops and other local places, so a few visits to a local petrol station wouldn't be too onerous. 

 

[Mad Harold]

2 minutes ago, Tony1 said:

 

Ah, I see. They don't normally show the 'portable' tank on the website sales pages...

So yes, petrol would be a little bit of a nuisance if you stick to the rules, but its still not a dealbreaker by any means. I use the ebike to do several trips each week anyway to shops and other local places, so a few visits to a local petrol station wouldn't be too onerous. 

 

Finding petrol is not usually a problem.Google lists petrol stations and you need to plan ahead a little to fill your jerrycan at one nearby.

Probably not relevant, but my last boat a Norman 20 with a new Tohatsu 8HP outboard used 0.6Ltr per hour at canal speeds. Not terribly accurate, but I filled the tank and cruised for a hour and using an oil bottle measured 0.6Ltr to fill the tank.

[Tony Brooks]

One thing that may need checking out if going for an outboard, especially with a fair bit of solar. I don't know about the Obs, but the 12V "battery charging" output on the Honda inverter generators is not voltage regulated, so a bit like old-fashioned transformer battery chargers. This means that as the batteries charge, the charging current drops and the voltage rises. It seems that it can reach a level that will destroy the battery. This is far more likely to happen if solar has already give the battery a good charge.

 

If the output is regulated, however crudely, then it should not be a worry.

Edited February 14 by Tony Brooks

[Mad Harold]

On 24/01/2024 at 18:03, ditchcrawler said:

Thieves have been known to take a chainsaw to the transom of a boat to take the engine off letting the boat sink in the process. One way is to remove the makers engine cover so the engine is less saleable. 

Another way is to paint the outboard in a distinctive colour or stripes or polka dots.

[Shropshire Landlubber]

Thank you all for your comments - seem to have gone a bit off-piste but a really helpful conversation about electrics and charging from an outboard - I have been pndering how much it may cost to set up a hybrid system, with small diesel charging up batteries for an all-electric propulsion (inboard or outboard) as required to top up batteries.  I'm sure I'm not the only person to have wondered about this, but I really quite fancy the idea of a silent boat, if possible to have sufficient power at the prop for canals or rivers

[Alan de Enfield]

12 minutes ago, Shropshire Landlubber said:

seem to have gone a bit off-piste

 

But if you did not know that you are limited to the amount of petrol you can carry - it may have been a very useful trip "off pissed".

[Stroudwater1]

8 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I think a GRP, although lighter, will blow about far more readily than a steel boat because of the lack of draft and they seem to tend to have a bit more side area so more windage. I found that learning to use a spring on the centre line to spring the boat alongside using the engine sorted  the wind difficulty, but that presupposes there will always be a secure point to tie the spring line to. Unless you are quick with a goat chain or strike lucky with a tree this is not really an option on the canal bank.

They are generally much lighter Tony so holding to a bank is by and large  easy even in high winds. Just holding in the middle of the boat from the roof handrail we found a good technique too if waiting for locks. 

There isn’t generally a centre line on GRP boats but springing two lines from stern and bow one in each direction will do the job pretty well. 
 

I think it’s been mentioned before but the Thames  and Trent have marinas that dispense petrol. I’m not sure about the Warks Avon or Severn though. 

[Alan de Enfield]

43 minutes ago, Stroudwater1 said:

I think it’s been mentioned before but the Thames  and Trent have marinas that dispense petrol.

 

Unless it has changed, there was only one on the River Trent - Farndon Marina.

[blackrose]

On 24/01/2024 at 12:18, magnetman said:

Having said that the barge which was 57x12ft was on hydraulic steering and that was actually very nice especially up the top end of the River where there are some pretty tight bends. Tiller steering a big thing like that would be rather exhausting. 

 

It depends on how well a boat steers I guess. My boat is also 57x12ft and it's not exhausting to steer with a tiller. I'm not sure I really understand why you think it would be?

[magnetman]

1 minute ago, blackrose said:

 

It depends on how well a boat steers I guess. My boat is also 57x12ft and it's not exhausting to steer with a tiller. I'm not sure I really understand why you think it would be?

Did you take it to Lechlade ?

 

I was commenting about the top end of the Thames. I expect in most places it would be fine. 

5 hours ago, Mad Harold said:

Another way is to paint the outboard in a distinctive colour or stripes or polka dots.

I like the idea of Polka dots. 

 

My Honda outboard has GBR (GB Rowing) printed on the cowl so they all think I nicked it when in fact I bought it. It is amusing at times having the only privately owned Eton Racing Boats coaching launch on the Thames. 

 

I'm going to get a megaphone. 

 

Also small torpedoes. 

5 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

One thing that may need checking out if going for an outboard, especially with a fair bit of solar. I don't know about the Obs, but the 12V "battery charging" output on the Honda inverter generators is not voltage regulated, so a bit like old-fashioned transformer battery chargers. This means that as the batteries charge, the charging current drops and the voltage rises. It seems that it can reach a level that will destroy the battery. This is far more likely to happen if solar has already give the battery a good charge.

 

If the output is regulated, however crudely, then it should not be a worry.

 

I still haven't put a volt meter on the Lithium Titanate battery I use to start the Honda 10. I am assuming it will be around 14v and the top voltage before venting is around 18v so it should be okay. 

 

Voltage regulation on outboard motor charging coils is definitely quite interesting for someone who uses one a lot.