GRP v Steel

[Shropshire Landlubber]

I've just re-registered on this Forum having had quite an access faff with login and passwords under the username Vasco826 - hopeful I can stay this time without issues.

 

We're looking at options for a retirement plan for myself and my good lady and are tending towards 50% ashore in Shropshire and 50% afloat cruising the network, accompanied by at least one Labrador.  However the choice of boat is the biggest challenge right now. My better half is not happy at the helm of a traditional steel boat and with age we anticipate perhaps more issues with standing for long periods, so I'm leaning towards a GRP cruiser such as a Viking 32 with centre cockpit.  This would mean that she can "drive" whilst I do the locks and bridges, being the more agile of the pair!

I've read pretty much all I can find here on the subject of Steel v GRP and have taken onboard all the advise I can - the question I've not found the answer to though is the matter of Draft and Air Draft.

Can anyone offer me any guidance about a comparison of Draft for Steel NB v GRP Cruiser and the same for Air Draft (limitations to use of tunnels is my concern here)

Any thoughts will be greatly appreciated

Also, any suggestions for a reasonably recent-build 32 foot centre cockpit design other than the Vikings would be helpful - not too keen on Normans since all are pretty dated as far as I can see

Many thanks, and pleased to be back

Doug

 

[magpie patrick]

I have a fibreglass cruiser - a Viking 23. To be honest you'll hear a lot of rubbish about yoghurt pots, they're fine for canals. However I am beginning to think I'd like a boat I can step onto rather than need to climb onto, getting over the side deck and combing onto Juno's back deck is not something for dodgy knees and bad backs, especially as these small boats rock more readily - there's a Viking 26 centre cockpit moored near  me and the combing is even higher and combined with a narrower side deck. 

 

In the medium term as my years advance I'm pondering a Wilderness Beaver or possibly even a Sea Otter for this reason 

[Lady M]

There's also a Sea Otter version with a centre cockpit.

[magnetman]

52 minutes ago, magpie patrick said:

I have a fibreglass cruiser - a Viking 23. To be honest you'll hear a lot of rubbish about yoghurt pots, they're fine for canals. However I am beginning to think I'd like a boat I can step onto rather than need to climb onto, getting over the side deck and combing onto Juno's back deck is not something for dodgy knees and bad backs, especially as these small boats rock more readily - there's a Viking 26 centre cockpit moored near  me and the combing is even higher and combined with a narrower side deck. 

 

In the medium term as my years advance I'm pondering a Wilderness Beaver or possibly even a Sea Otter for this reason 

Access is important. 

 

One positive for steel Boats is that if you find it difficult to get onto it there is always the option of cutting a piece out of the side(s) and enabling easy access. Not such a straightforward option with GRP although it can be done. 

 

Having had both I do prefer steel for the durability and it doesn't show up scratches so much. 

 

It depends what one does with ones Boats. I live on them and always will do so the option to go straight in through the side and avoid steps up and down is quite interesting in the long term. 

 

 

[Ewan123]

I've seen a few steel narrowboats with a seat and wheel-steering, including a couple with centre cockpit. If you can afford to, I'm sure it's possible to have a narrowboat converted to wheel steering as an option. That way you might get the best of both worlds.

Edited January 23 by Ewan123

[agg221]

14 minutes ago, Ewan123 said:

I've seen a few steel narrowboats with a seat and wheel-steering, including a couple with centre cockpit. If you can afford to, I'm sure it's possible to have a narrowboat converted to wheel steering as an option. That way you might get the best of both worlds.

Martin Fuller's boat 'Cutter' shows just how far you can take this idea - some good photos if you scroll down on this page:

 

https://nbalbert.blogspot.com/2013/04/blake-mere-ellesmere.html

 

Alec

[Ewan123]

3 minutes ago, agg221 said:

Martin Fuller's boat 'Cutter' shows just how far you can take this idea - some good photos if you scroll down on this page:

 

https://nbalbert.blogspot.com/2013/04/blake-mere-ellesmere.html

 

Alec

I like that 👍

[James_P]

If your going for a wheel, proper one that does a ridiculous number of turns. (remember only uncouth motorcars have swearing of one turn each way) then could go the whole hog and get a ship telegraph from the bridge (well deck) for the captan (better half) to give orders that dead slow (tickover)is  just too fast.....

[Shropshire Landlubber]

3 hours ago, magpie patrick said:

I have a fibreglass cruiser - a Viking 23. To be honest you'll hear a lot of rubbish about yoghurt pots, they're fine for canals. However I am beginning to think I'd like a boat I can step onto rather than need to climb onto, getting over the side deck and combing onto Juno's back deck is not something for dodgy knees and bad backs, especially as these small boats rock more readily - there's a Viking 26 centre cockpit moored near  me and the combing is even higher and combined with a narrower side deck. 

 

In the medium term as my years advance I'm pondering a Wilderness Beaver or possibly even a Sea Otter for this reason 

Thank you, you make an interesting point about the height to climb aboard compared with the easy step onto a steel boat with cruiser or trad stern.  However, I've just looked at the Sea Otter and I have to say that beauty is surely in the eye of the beholder, but it's lines do not appeal to me despite the clear practicality!

 

Do you have any info about air draft and tunnels with a Viking please?

 

[magpie patrick]

6 hours ago, Shropshire Landlubber said:

Do you have any info about air draft and tunnels with a Viking please?

 

 

This is from the Viking Owners Club website - gives it as 6 foot 6 inches. Vikings are all over the canal system so I can't think it's a major problem. Fir bridges and tunnels if you could stand on the back deck of a narrow boat to go through then the Viking should fit. The only places I can think of where mine almost certainly wouldn't fit are the M5 culvert on the Droitwich Canal and Froghall Tunnel on the Caldon. The highest point is the top of the windscreen. 

 

The canopy is higher when it's up, and needs to be taken down going under the lift bridge at the entrance to the Somerset Coal Canal. Not doing this early in my ownership was expensive, but I've had the frame rounded so it's lower at the edges and higher in the middle. I prefer cruising with the canopy down anyway. 

Viking website spec for 23

The first coffee of the morning, sitting on deck looking backwards, canopy up, rear screen raised, is exquisite. The photo is me on Christmas day

And if you need to be sold the dream - this is me and Lady V out for the day near Avoncliffe 

[Bee]

Wheel steering is fine but a tiller is better. Most GRP boats steer from the middle or the front half of the boat. This is in my opinion, much more difficult and that is why most boats steer from the back end. Our boat , a little harbour tug, steers from the front and it can be awkward despite owning it for many years. GRP boats are OK in warm weather but not well suited for perishing cold. Steel narrowboats are more user friendly but they corrode, Grp boats are possibly a little weaker but I really would not worry about that at all..... You pays your money.... etc.

[Stroudwater1]

Wheel steering is fine when used to it, some depends on the rudder and overall design of the boat. Ive steered some terrible tiller steering hire boats that I suspect must have been cilled. We used to have a lovely centre cockpit boat that the steering was great on (Inboard engine). Many large barges were wheel steered down relative narrow channels and usually all went fine. Its what you are used to as much as anything. 

 

The other advantage with GRP boats is the ease to push off from banks and pull in when mooring/ waiting at locks etc. Steel boats need a fair bit of pulling and are less easy to restrain when a boat is passing and you havent tied up or are at locks. Likewise the shallow draft of a GRP craft is often an advantage, for mooring and avoiding underwater debris/ getting stuck on the bottom. Thats unless the wind is blowing when its a distinct disadvantage. 

 

With a small draft they often can travel at faster speeds too, subject to regs etc. 

 

 

[magnetman]

I've got both. The 30ft toy trawler steers by wheel from in the wheelhouse. Its a chain and solid bar linkage to the rudders so not many turns, A bit like driving a car. 

 

The inspection lunch has a wooden tiller on the starn deck.

 

I've done the length of the Thames several times in both Boats and on balance I would say the tiller steered is easier to handle. Not that the wheel is a problem and being indoors is nice but generally speaking a heavy steel Boat (both of my Boats are 16 tonnes) is probably a little easier to command with a tiller. 

 

 

 

Having said that the barge which was 57x12ft was on hydraulic steering and that was actually very nice especially up the top end of the River where there are some pretty tight bends. Tiller steering a big thing like that would be rather exhausting. 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

22 minutes ago, Bee said:

This is in my opinion, much more difficult and that is why most boats steer from the back end.

 

This may be misinterpreted so just for clarity by far (maybe 99%+) of boats do not steer directly from the stern, however, to ease getting on and off to work locks etc narrowboats have traditionally had the steering at the stern.

This is 'direct steering' (the tiller is connected directly to the rudder) whereas 'wheel steering' is 'indirect steering' and the wheel is connected to the rudder via chains, cables or in more modern designs via hydraulic hoses (turn the wheel, pumps hydraulic oil, which moves a piston which pushes / pull the rudder).

 

Direct steering is much more sensitive as the rudder moves the same amount as the tiller.

There is less to go wrong / break.

Steering can be heavy and tiring.

 

Indirect steering requires more 'movement' and it could be (say) 5 rotations of the wheel to turn the rudder from 'full to port' to 'full to starboard'. (less sensitive)

With an indirect system there is no 'weight' to fight against - the hydraulics do the work.

 

Whichever you use you will get used to it and if you then change to a boat with the 'other' system it will feel weird.

[magnetman]

Yes the indirect systems vary quite a lot. My barge had a vetus hydraulic steering setup which was easy as it was about 5 turns each way but it did tend to creep a bit so one could not have a king spoke or a rudder indicator based on the position of the wheel. It would have to be based on rudder position. 

 

On the toy trawler the lock to lock is 2 1/4 turns of the wheel and the rudder indicator is driven from the steering wheel shaft as there is no play or creep due to it being a direct linkage. 

 

I'd never handled a Boat with that type of steering before. Its completely different to a hydraulic steering setup. 

 

Also have a small Boat with a cable drum arrangement which is quite a nice system but no good for heavy Boats. 

 

 

I do like knowing the rudder position. 

 

 

 

[pete.i]

I've had both. A 30 foot narrowboat and a grp cruiser. My cruiser was a Shetland and getting into the cockpit was a bit of a trial as the side was high so it meant lifting a leg or two which even at 65 was a tad hard. The narrowboats that I have had was just a step onto the back which 99% of the times was at the mooring or pontoon level. The other problem I found with the shetland was keeping it in straight line especially if there was a bit of wind. It wasn't too bad but I found the narrowboat much easier. A friend of mine had a 56 foot narrowboat (Zuny I think) that had a covered cockpit and wheel steering. I did helm that a few times and it was okay. I have given up boating now as I moved to an area without any near canals.....Ah no it was Zuni, this one.......  ooppss that's copyrighted so it's gone.

Edited January 24 by pete.i

[Barneyp]

17 hours ago, Shropshire Landlubber said:

I've just re-registered on this Forum having had quite an access faff with login and passwords under the username Vasco826 - hopeful I can stay this time without issues.

 

We're looking at options for a retirement plan for myself and my good lady and are tending towards 50% ashore in Shropshire and 50% afloat cruising the network, accompanied by at least one Labrador.  However the choice of boat is the biggest challenge right now. My better half is not happy at the helm of a traditional steel boat and with age we anticipate perhaps more issues with standing for long periods, so I'm leaning towards a GRP cruiser such as a Viking 32 with centre cockpit.  This would mean that she can "drive" whilst I do the locks and bridges, being the more agile of the pair!

I've read pretty much all I can find here on the subject of Steel v GRP and have taken onboard all the advise I can - the question I've not found the answer to though is the matter of Draft and Air Draft.

Can anyone offer me any guidance about a comparison of Draft for Steel NB v GRP Cruiser and the same for Air Draft (limitations to use of tunnels is my concern here)

Any thoughts will be greatly appreciated

Also, any suggestions for a reasonably recent-build 32 foot centre cockpit design other than the Vikings would be helpful - not too keen on Normans since all are pretty dated as far as I can see

Many thanks, and pleased to be back

Doug

 

As GRP boats are not normally designed specifically for canals they  tend to float higher in the water and/or have a v hull.

This means that in order to get a reasonable internal cabin height the air draft is to high to fit through some tunnels and bridges, or in order to keep the air draft down you can't stand up in the cabin.

The quoted draft may still be similar to a steel boat to allow for the depth of the propellor in the water, this is particularly the case with GRP boats with inboard engines running outdrives or a conventional prop shaft. - I would go for an outboard, as outdrives or a prop under the boat are likely to be problematic on canals.

 

I think around 6feet air draft would give you access to pretty much the whole network, look at the CRT website for details of the canals you are likely to use.

Having a foldable windscreen will enable you to reduce the air draft.

 

As to suggestions for a recent build 32ft Centre cockpit, unfortunately there aren't many recent build GRP boats designed with canal use in mind. The combination of most people choose steel, and GRP boats not rusting means that there is very little demand for new boats. If you are prepared to shop around, and consider getting a boat from the along way away (Road transport of GRP boats is not to expensive) there are some older boats in very good condition. 

[Shropshire Landlubber]

many thanks Barneyp - a really helpful response.  Yes, my research over the last day or so suggests that a Viking 32 with centre cockpit is likely to be my best option and they seem to be available at quite reasonable money for one in pretty good condition, even the older boats. 

 

Have found one advert for a Viking Atlantic 330 (on Apolloduck) which looks like a Viking 32 but with additional platform at the stern for the outboard (giving better room in the aft cabin) - but nowhere can I find any more info about this, which is a shame as it looks perfect for what I need!

 

I think my mind has been put at rest re draft and air draft.  I'm not a huge fan of long tunnels anyway and suffer from claustrophobia so it's mainly bridges and short tunnels that concern me.  also, have struggled with water depth on both the Ashby (last year)  and the Llangollan (year before) in steel boats so want to avoid ripping out the bottom of a GRP boat !

[Tony Brooks]

47 minutes ago, Shropshire Landlubber said:

also, have struggled with water depth on both the Ashby (last year)  and the Llangollan (year before) in steel boats so want to avoid ripping out the bottom of a GRP boat !

 

I don't think that is very likely to happen because e GRPs are likely to be a shallow V shaped hull and may well have a bulk of timber as a keel that accounts for perhaps 6" to 9" of the draft. Hopefully someone with this type of GRP boat will confirm or deny.

 

51 minutes ago, Shropshire Landlubber said:

Have found one advert for a Viking Atlantic 330 (on Apolloduck) which looks like a Viking 32 but with additional platform at the stern for the outboard (giving better room in the aft cabin)

 

Remember that outboards tend to have two disadvantages on canals.

 

1. they are by far and away likely to be petrol powered, and for much of the canal network that will involve carrying it in cans from a nearby filling station. Things may be a better on the rivers.

 

2. On many outboards, especially smaller ones, the charging output is very limited compared with an alternator on an inboard engine. This may not matter much for summer use as long as you have adequate solar and move every day, but in winter this may well cause battery problems. Check the charging specifications for any outboard you are thinking of buying.

 

 

[Stroudwater1]

You really should be fine on all canal tunnels apart from Leek. Harecastle could be a squeeze but not if you take on several crew members for the journey to weigh you down.  All others have plenty of headroom. Best to set off early morning or very late afternoon to avoid oncoming traffic. Then you can whizz through. Keep an eye out for logs though.

 

We passed a GRP in Braunston tunnel last year, we were the 5th steel boat they had passed in the tunnel, all uneventful. 

You won’t scrape the bottom on Llangollen or Ashby as the draft is much less on GRP boats.  You may find you go quite fast heading away from Llangollen too with the flow. 
 

[magnetman]

1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I don't think that is very likely to happen because e GRPs are likely to be a shallow V shaped hull and may well have a bulk of timber as a keel that accounts for perhaps 6" to 9" of the draft. Hopefully someone with this type of GRP boat will confirm or deny.

 

 

Remember that outboards tend to have two disadvantages on canals.

 

1. they are by far and away likely to be petrol powered, and for much of the canal network that will involve carrying it in cans from a nearby filling station. Things may be a better on the rivers.

 

2. On many outboards, especially smaller ones, the charging output is very limited compared with an alternator on an inboard engine. This may not matter much for summer use as long as you have adequate solar and move every day, but in winter this may well cause battery problems. Check the charging specifications for any outboard you are thinking of buying.

 

 

Another potential problem with outboards is they are popular with thieves. 

 

It depends how the Boat is used and where it is kept of course. 

 

 

[Shropshire Landlubber]

Very many thanks for all the responses and info - very informative and helping us ot get our thinking straight.

 

I'm interested in Tony's comment about outboards being vulnerable to theft - I had been wondering about this and how frequently this occurs, although I imagine it's quite difficult to remove a hefty 30hp outboard if moored alongside without some sort of lifting gear - maybe not?

 

We do intend to get aout and about on as much of the network as we can, but this will involve leaving the boat for a weeks or so at times, but I think we may look to leave it at marinas rather than just on the towpath somewhere, for security and also transport convenience.

[ditchcrawler]

20 minutes ago, Shropshire Landlubber said:

Very many thanks for all the responses and info - very informative and helping us ot get our thinking straight.

 

I'm interested in Tony's comment about outboards being vulnerable to theft - I had been wondering about this and how frequently this occurs, although I imagine it's quite difficult to remove a hefty 30hp outboard if moored alongside without some sort of lifting gear - maybe not?

 

We do intend to get aout and about on as much of the network as we can, but this will involve leaving the boat for a weeks or so at times, but I think we may look to leave it at marinas rather than just on the towpath somewhere, for security and also transport convenience.

Thieves have been known to take a chainsaw to the transom of a boat to take the engine off letting the boat sink in the process. One way is to remove the makers engine cover so the engine is less saleable. 

[Tony Brooks]

26 minutes ago, Shropshire Landlubber said:

Very many thanks for all the responses and info - very informative and helping us ot get our thinking straight.

 

I'm interested in Tony's comment about outboards being vulnerable to theft - I had been wondering about this and how frequently this occurs, although I imagine it's quite difficult to remove a hefty 30hp outboard if moored alongside without some sort of lifting gear - maybe not?

 

We do intend to get aout and about on as much of the network as we can, but this will involve leaving the boat for a weeks or so at times, but I think we may look to leave it at marinas rather than just on the towpath somewhere, for security and also transport convenience.

 

Not Tony's comment, it was magnetman.

 

We used to use coach bolts through the bracket and transom and then glass over the nut side. It would not stop the transom being cut away, and it was a bit of a task to take all the day boat outboards off at the end of the season.

 

You may well find that at 30hp the charging output is higher than smaller models, but probably nowhere what a modern domestic alternator would produce these days.

[ditchcrawler]

34 minutes ago, Shropshire Landlubber said:

Very many thanks for all the responses and info - very informative and helping us ot get our thinking straight.

 

I'm interested in Tony's comment about outboards being vulnerable to theft - I had been wondering about this and how frequently this occurs, although I imagine it's quite difficult to remove a hefty 30hp outboard if moored alongside without some sort of lifting gear - maybe not?

 

We do intend to get aout and about on as much of the network as we can, but this will involve leaving the boat for a weeks or so at times, but I think we may look to leave it at marinas rather than just on the towpath somewhere, for security and also transport convenience.

Are you going to want 30Hp I would have thought 15 would be over the top on the canals